Why Contraception is wrong?

[johnnyjoe]

I realize that these are blunt questions, but I still do not see the logical or scriptural basis for this doctrine. To my knowledge this has not been declared infallibly… if it has, i would be interested in learning about that… anyone? Thanks all!

Peace to all…
Brandon

This teaching, because it is concerning faith and morals, is defacto infallibly defined because it is universally held by the Pope and the weight of the Bishops of the whole church. Infallibility does not have to be formally defined for us to be held accountable with our actions to the teaching

 

[Shibboleth]

johnnyjoe:

The NOT HAVING SEX part is the non-action. That DISCIPLINE is the proof of sexual self-mastery. The use of chemicals, barriers, or surgeries as a substitute for sexual self-mastery is the very definition of contra-ception.

Indeed, the other practices of NFP that entail observing and recording fertility signs are actions, but are actions ordered toward making a decision. Contraception practices are actions ordered toward having sex that has been made infertile by some third agent - a chemical, a barrier, or a surgery. You might make the case that the information collected by a couple is a “third agent”, but the information is not an acting agent, only a source of information.

Not beleiving in God is an action. Intentionally not doing something is a decision which is an internal action.

I do understand what you are saying but it still does not change that you are intentionally doing things to avoid conception. It is most likely better than the alternatives but it is still doing things so that ones seed is more likely to be wasted.

 

[Beaver]

Wormwood:

To even entertain this notion is profoundly ignorant. Contraception was not widely used or known about 2000+ years ago.

Wrong you better check history on this one.

Wormwood:

Jesus was not anti-condom, this rule, like celebacy was church inspired. And church inspired means tainted with the foulability man. To argue that a man’s judgement or decree is infoulable seems to border heresy. People, despite what they might tell you, do make mistakes and misjudgements. Going back to celebacy, I am sure an apostle recommended this practice and that can be sited, but it wasn’t until the church started losing land due to inheretances of the preist’s children, that the practice of celebacy was inforced. Even the notion of celebacy in itself is a contraception, much like homosexuality, no possibility of childbirth is present.

Wrong, you have not a clue do you.

Wormwood:

To lose sight of the big picture, and focus on obscure or trivial passages to try and achieve some sort of peity is ridiculous. If you would like to focus on one particular passage how about a church is not made of wood and stone, think about that the next time you visit your local cathedral and all of it’s excess. This kind of hypocracy is why so many people have become disillusioned with religion. The message of every major religion is the same… be good to your neighbor, don’t steal or kill … but people spend so much time focusing on the little trivial passages that they miss the big picture. Do you honestly think an all knowing all powerfull being cares if someone uses contraceptives

Yes, He is Creator. He cares about His business.

Wormwood:

, yet makes no mention of it save a coin analogy that is a bit of a stretch to fit this context?

Yes, He is Creator.

Wormwood:

I think if you spent less time trying to condemn people for having different values, you could embrace the fact that we are all here on some common ground and everyone is just doing what they think is right.

Conversion requires diolague.

Wormwood:

Regaurdless of your view, which is no better or worse than their’s ( since in all honesty no one KNOWS what awaits us, or what our deity wants from us ) they are people, and it is not our place to judge them.

**Christ is the way, the life and the truth. **
If you need to focus on one detail of the bible fables ( which many bible stories are; a fictional story with a moral) then focus on a point in which you are wrong, not in which you are right. Focus on your own shortcomings, and not how everyone else is wrong… this is the true source of peity, constant struggle to better one’s self, and internal reflection, not condeming the shortcomings and personal choices of others. Christ is the way, the life and the truth.

Wormwood:

So before you excommunicate anyone ( I realize this is a dated practice) just remember, judge not, lest ye be judged.

I did not know we were judge, I thought it a diolague.

 

[johnnyjoe]

Shibboleth:

Not beleiving in God is an action. Intentionally not doing something is a decision which is an internal action.

I do understand what you are saying but it still does not change that you are intentionally doing things to avoid conception. It is most likely better than the alternatives but it is still doing things so that ones seed is more likely to be wasted.

Well, not spilling your seed is indeed not “wasting” it. Let me offer Christ’s words…

from Matthew 19:
1] Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan;
2] and large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
3] And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?”
4] He answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,
5] and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6] So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.”
7] They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8] He said to them, “For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9] And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.”
10] The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.”
11] But he said to them, “Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given.
**12] For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.” **

Those who abstain “for the kingdom of heaven” do not “waste” their seed. Neither does a man who abstains for a greater good, properly discerned in prayer and spiritual guidance, when he chooses to “wait” to have relations with his wife. I dislike using “abstain” in the context of marital chastity…we only wait - priests and religious, now they abstain.

 

[Shibboleth]

johnnyjoe:

Well, not spilling your seed is indeed not “wasting” it. Let me offer Christ’s words…

from Matthew 19:
1] Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan;
2] and large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
3] And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?”
4] He answered, “Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,
5] and said, `For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
6] So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.”
7] They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?”
8] He said to them, “For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9] And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery.”
10] The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.”
11] But he said to them, “Not all men can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given.
12] For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it.”

Those who abstain “for the kingdom of heaven” do not “waste” their seed. Neither does a man who abstains for a greater good, properly discerned in prayer and spiritual guidance, when he chooses to “wait” to have relations with his wife. I dislike using “abstain” in the context of marital chastity…we only wait - priests and religious, now they abstain.

I am not talking about not releasing ones seed. I am talking about only releasing ones seed when it is not effective, thereby intentionally sending it to waste.

People that abstain will have nighttime emissions but this is not an intentional matter. Luther actually battled with this when he was still a monk. He was told that he was missing the point.

 

[Beaver]

Women

One can always tell love by the way his gift is recieved and how it is treated. It is not the man who does not love!

Abortion tells men how much this culture hates him by rejecting his gift. This generates hostility between men and women, for were is the loving envinorment of the home.

I will pray for the women on this board, for they have taught the culture we are not to be loved.

God Bless

 

[Shibboleth]

Women

One can always tell love by the way his gift is recieved and how it is treated. It is not the man who does not love!

Abortion tells men how much this culture hates him by rejecting his gift. This generates hostility between men and women, for were is the loving envinorment of the home.

I will pray for the women on this board, for they have taught the culture we are not to be loved.

God Bless

Most if not all contraceptives were developed by men.

 

[santana]

IMAO contraception is not always that wrong, supposing a young couple, yet teenagers that do not believe in God make love? And they are not going to get married. It’s all sin, of course, but in this case, when there is nothing one can do to stop them contraception will be very useful, because the unexpected babies will turn their lives in complete desgarce. Or am i wrong?

just my opinion

charity-fund.org

 

[Beaver]

Shibboleth:

Most if not all contraceptives were developed by men.

The request came from a women, besides this statement has little to say about the comments. You might say it side steps the issue.

 

[Beaver]

santana:

IMAO contraception is not always that wrong, supposing a young couple, yet teenagers that do not believe in God make love? And they are not going to get married. It’s all sin, of course, but in this case, when there is nothing one can do to stop them contraception will be very useful, because the unexpected babies will turn their lives in complete desgarce. Or am i wrong?

just my opinion

charity-fund.org

Yes, for love is defined as the best for the beloved. What is the best, heaven. So think again!!!

 

[Beaver]

Christi:

I do not believe in using NFP, but my husband thinks it is o.k. He does not want anymore children. We have four. He says he is too tired. This is not a serious or grave reason! Our priest told me my husband has the final say in this matter. I am hurting, as I would like to remain open to having more. So, for now I am just going along with practicing something I detest.

Please advise me .

Because you are using NFP, you are still open to a child.

This means you still have the option of having a child.

I hope you openly dicuss this with your husband. Husband have changed their minds before.

Email Dr Ray here is his website: drray.com/

Dr Ray has good advice.

 

[Wormwood]

Beaver you offer a very laughable retort. All you can say is “no” and “wrong”…would you like to offer even a shred of evidence to support your claim? Or should we suppose your self righteousness reflects piety and take your words on faith? Perhaps it is you who should look at the facts, any facts, so you may offer a more intelligent argument consisting of more than 5 word sentences , and half thoughts. My favorite has to be “coversion requires dialogue” …that was in defense to my comment about condemning people. Do you think it is ok to condemn people that think differently than you do? To this extent, you are placing yourself above your fellow man, and that is not for you to decide. Johnnyjoe, your argument about the foulability of man is juvenille at best. No i was not refering to baseball, but the tendancy of men since the beginning of time to act as if they were the direct intermediaries with God. This tradition is not unique to catholocism, it was practiced by the Summerians, the Egyptians, and numerous other ancient cultures. What is unique is that Catholocism claims to be monotheistic, yet a coucil of men has divine knowlegde. Preists pray to saints, Jesus, AND mother Mary…which is polytheism. There is a notion of one God, yet all the saints act as lesser dieties. People even pray to the statues of the saints which is idolitry. I am sure someone can quote a passage in which this practice is somehow rectified, but i know one where this practice is condemned : thou shalt not worship false idols. I am sure the vatican council would like to believe they are infoulable, but what about their policy of non-involvement in WW II ? What about the inquisition or “holy wars”. There have been mistakes, and it is foolish to avert your eyes and say they haven’t. A coucil of men is just that; men, and men make mistakes. If you recall the story of the money changers, Jesus was fed up with the jews in the synagogue because they had perverted their beliefs and become to righteous for their own good. Let’s not have a repeat of this occurance. There are many people here ( on this forum) that have their heart’s in the right place, but somepeople reek of self righteousness Johnnyjoe. Your pride and overconfidence is sure to earn you a place among the wicked.

 

[Nathan_s_King]

Shibboleth:

I just have a problem with people saying that NFP is not contraception…

First, let me concede your point. NFP is, by dictionary definition, a form of contraception. Unfortunately, we Catholics tend to use a language all our own. When we say “contraception”, we mean it as a short hand way of saying “artificial birth control.”

Shibboleth:

If it is a matter of artificial verses not-artificial, where does one draw the line. There are basic foods that decrease one’s potency and exercise along with other aspects also can have an effect.

By answering the question “Will this action modify one’s fertility to decrease the chance of pregnancy?” we can draw the line. Condoms, diaphragms, hormones, (and yes, tight underwear, certain foods, or exercise) taken specifically to modify one’s fertility would be immoral. Accepting one’s state of fertility and choosing not to engage is sex on a particular day does not attempt to modify anyone’s fertility.

Shibboleth:

I think that it all comes down to intent.

For us, sin is more than just intent. As one writer on this forum already said, the ends do not justify the means. Also, as I think Jimmy Akin put it once, if you need money for college, you could get a job or rob a bank. Your intention either way is a good one (going to college is a good thing), yet the method you’ve chosen make a huge difference. One technique is sinful, the other isn’t.

Admittedly, it’s hard for us Catholics to explain briefly WHY it’s wrong to use ABC. Janet Smith’s “Contraception: Why not”, Christopher West’s materials, John Kippley, Scott Hahn and others are all very good at giving details on this and I highly recommend reading them if you really want to understand it. “The Bible and Birth Control” by Charles Provan or “Open Embrace” by Sam and Bethany Torode are especially useful for Protestants because they were written by Protestants for Protestants.

Let me throw in my own angle on it which should work no matter what your religion: Human sexuality is a complex, fragile ecosystem. Like any ecosystem, small changes can have a big impact. Think of the use of the pesticide DDT nearly causing the extinction of bald eagles. After forty years of ABC, a whole host of ills have overcome our society (rampant teenage pregancy, abortion, divorce). Of particular concern is that almost every society that has embraced ABC has a birth rate so low that it cannot sustain it’s population without immigration. In short, ABC is causing Western society to die out. These problems simply don’t occur to most NFP couples. Our divorce rate is less than 5% and we have enough kids on average to keep our population from shrinking into oblivion. There truly is a difference between ABC and NFP

 

[Nathan_s_King]

Wormwood:

To even entertain this notion is profoundly ignorant. Contraception was not widely used or known about 2000+ years ago.

Actually, it was. Sheepskin condoms were common in Greece and Rome about the time of Jesus. There was even a primitive version of the RU-486 abortion drug known as the “pharmakeia” (literally, “the drug” or “the potion”) that was used to induce a chemical abortion. St. Paul may be warning against this in Galations 5:19-26, with similar warnings in Revelation 9:21and 21:8.

Wormwood:

Do you honestly think an all knowing all powerfull being cares if someone uses contraceptives?

Yes. As I mentioned in my previous reply to Shibboleth, God loves us and wants us to avoid teen pregancy, divorce, and the dwindling of our society’s population to nothingness. Small changes can make a big difference!

Wormwood:

I think if you spent less time trying to condemn people for having different values, you could embrace the fact that we are all here on some common ground and everyone is just doing what they think is right.

I didn’t read anybody condeming anybody. Saying something is right or wrong is different than saying someone will burn in hell. We believe in “invincible ignorance”: some people can go to heaven, even though they contracept, because they genuinely don’t know it’s wrong.

Wormwood:

Focus on your own shortcomings, and not how everyone else is wrong… this is the true source of peity, constant struggle to better one’s self, and internal reflection, not condeming the shortcomings and personal choices of others. So before you excommunicate anyone ( I realize this is a dated practice) just remember, judge not, lest ye be judged.

Well, we found one thing to agree on!

 

[Nathan_s_King]

Wormwood:

Beaver you offer a very laughable retort. All you can say is “no” and “wrong”…would you like to offer even a shred of evidence to support your claim? Or should we suppose your self righteousness reflects piety and take your words on faith? Perhaps it is you who should look at the facts, any facts, so you may offer a more intelligent argument consisting of more than 5 word sentences , and half thoughts. My favorite has to be “coversion requires dialogue” …that was in defense to my comment about condemning people. Do you think it is ok to condemn people that think differently than you do? To this extent, you are placing yourself above your fellow man, and that is not for you to decide. Johnnyjoe, your argument about the foulability of man is juvenille at best. No i was not refering to baseball, but the tendancy of men since the beginning of time to act as if they were the direct intermediaries with God. This tradition is not unique to catholocism, it was practiced by the Summerians, the Egyptians, and numerous other ancient cultures. What is unique is that Catholocism claims to be monotheistic, yet a coucil of men has divine knowlegde. Preists pray to saints, Jesus, AND mother Mary…which is polytheism. There is a notion of one God, yet all the saints act as lesser dieties. People even pray to the statues of the saints which is idolitry. I am sure someone can quote a passage in which this practice is somehow rectified, but i know one where this practice is condemned : thou shalt not worship false idols. I am sure the vatican council would like to believe they are infoulable, but what about their policy of non-involvement in WW II ? What about the inquisition or “holy wars”. There have been mistakes, and it is foolish to avert your eyes and say they haven’t. A coucil of men is just that; men, and men make mistakes. If you recall the story of the money changers, Jesus was fed up with the jews in the synagogue because they had perverted their beliefs and become to righteous for their own good. Let’s not have a repeat of this occurance.

Oh, boy. Where to begin? Please visit www.catholic.com and look up the passages on papal infallibility, the Inquisition, and prayer to saints, to start with. You seem to have a lot of misconceptions of Catholicism.

Wormwood:

There are many people here ( on this forum) that have their heart’s in the right place, but somepeople reek of self righteousness Johnnyjoe. Your pride and overconfidence is sure to earn you a place among the wicked.

Careful, you’re sounding judgmental! Somebody named “Wormwood” just wrote a very nice piece warning us about not doing that!

 

[mrconrail]

This message is in reply to those who have stated that there is no difference between NFP and artificial contraception.

If one woman is baron and unable to have children does that mean when her and her husband make love they are contracepting? I would say no, since she has done nothing to alter the natural state of her body. Is it wrong for her to engage in marital acts? I would say no since this is how God created her.

If another women is baron at certain times of the month does this mean when her and her husband make love at these times are they contracepting? Once again I would have to say no since she has done nothing to alter the natural state of her body. If you say yes here then you would have to answer yes to the prior question. Is it wrong for her to engage in marital acts? Again I would say no since this is how God created her

If a third woman takes a pill and is thus baron is she using contraception? I would have to say yes since she is altering the natural state of her body. Is it wrong for her to engage in marital acts? Here I would say yes since this is not how God created her.

What matters is not that the seed enters a women who is baron but rather is it God who made her that way or was it (wo)man?

About the question on a married couple abstaining during the fertile period. Here is a question; the very moment that you become hungry do you eat? For many people the answer would be no. It could be that the meal is not ready yet, or you could be on a diet, or a number of other reasons. When you do eventually eat, the meal usually is more enjoyable. The same is true with sex.

While God does encourage us to have many children (Genesis 1:28) nowhere (that I know of) does God say that it is wrong for a couple not to engage in the marital act. But we are told that it is wrong to harm oneself (1 Cor. 3:16-17) and contraception is a way of harming oneself and new children.

It is understandable that God would want us to have many children since the soul is not created until the moment of conception. The more souls that are created the more that will enter the Kingdom. The more that enter the Kingdom the more God will be glorified. Thus: to deny God children is to deny Him glory. It is for this reason that I believe NFP should only be used after much prayer.

 

[Beaver]

HisName:

Out of curiosity, who is that very devout catholic? Obviously they aren’t very devout anymore.

There is allways a few who remain faithfull.

 

[Beaver]

Wormwood:

Beaver you offer a very laughable retort

 **Yes, but God is laughing at you not me. I remember the first time that he laughed at me. He said that, that is more important that He. I will not make that mistake again.**

Wormwood:

All you can say is “no” and “wrong”…would you like to offer even a shred of evidence to support your claim?

 <>**That is why we are dialoguing. Ask and you will receive.**

Wormwood:

Or should we suppose your self righteousness reflects piety and take your words on faith?

 <>**Piety comes with prayer and my righteousness is the Lord’s.**

Wormwood:

Perhaps it is you who should look at the facts, any facts, so you may offer a more intelligent argument consisting of more than 5 word sentences , and half thoughts. My favorite has to be “coversion requires dialogue” …that was in defense to my comment about condemning people. Do you think it is ok to condemn people that think differently than you do?

Yes, for the sack of conversion. How else will there mind be changed and bring them to the Lord.

Wormwood:

To this extent, you are placing yourself above your fellow man, and that is not for you to decide. Johnnyjoe, your argument about the foulability of man is juvenille at best. No i was not refering to baseball, but the tendancy of men since the beginning of time to act as if they were the direct intermediaries with God. This tradition is not unique to catholocism, it was practiced by the Summerians, the Egyptians, and numerous other ancient cultures.

 <>**You wish to argue with us about the authority give us by Christ. Try reading the Bible. **

Wormwood:

What is unique is that Catholocism claims to be monotheistic, yet a coucil of men has divine knowlegde.

 <>**Correct, if they are the church, whose head is Christ.  Read the Bible. Christ is the way, the life and the truth. It is His promises which give these men divine knowledge through the Holy Spirit, His gift to the church.

**

Wormwood:

Preists pray to saints, Jesus, AND mother Mary…which is polytheism.

 <>**The Bible says the prayers of the righteous fair far better than yours. These saints are not dead, they are alive in Christ and I can ask them to intercede for me. I would rather ask someone I know to be righteous.

**

Wormwood:

There is a notion of one God, yet all the saints act as lesser dieties.

 <>**As the righteous.**

Wormwood:

People even pray to the statues of the saints which is idolitry.

 <>**Statues are a physical reminder of the righteous one I am asking for prayer. They also remind me that the kingdom is at hand. Idolatry is to believe the statue can save me, I do not believe this. I do not even believe that the saint can do this, but I do believe in the prayers of the righteous.

**

Wormwood:

I am sure someone can quote a passage in which this practice is somehow rectified, but i know one where this practice is condemned : thou shalt not worship false idols.

We worship God alone, but we do ask the righteous to pray for us.

Wormwood:

I am sure the vatican council would like to believe they are infoulable, but what about their policy of non-involvement in WW II ? What about the inquisition or “holy wars”. There have been mistakes, and it is foolish to avert your eyes and say they haven’t.

**Actually the Vatican leaders omitted they sin. The Pope confesses his sins weekly. **

Wormwood:

A coucil of men is just that; men, and men make mistakes.

Correct, but Christ makes no mistakes.

 

[Shoshana]

Is this the same Wormwood from ‘The Screwtape Letters’ ?

or the Wormwood from the OT??:

WORMWOOD: (Hb la’nah, GK apsinthos), the plant Artemisia. Because of its bitter taste, it is employed as a metaphor for sin. (Dt 29:17); Am5:7; 6:12); divine punishment (Je 9:14; 23:15; Lam 3:15, 19); disaster (Pro 5:4). The star of Apc 8:11 named Wormwood falls from the sky and renders water poisonous.

Dictionary of the Bible by John L. McKenzie, SJ

Blessings,
Shoshana

So we meet again! Wormwood, how would you deal with the Hebrews and the Jews of today who pray at the tomb of Rachel, Davil, Abraham? Are they praying to other gods ???..you better not tell that to a Jew! I have seen their fervour and piety as I have been in Israel twice. What about the Wailing Wall???..how stupid it must look to stand at a wall, rocking back and forth with a prayer book in your hand. I guess they must be adoring stone also …How about, while in the desert, the pole with a serpent on it built by Moses that the people had to look upon to be saved from snake bites? God must be directing Moses to adore a pole with a snake coiled around it…I guess, in His wisdom, He must want us to have many other little gods other than Himself!. It would be wise to know your OT, my friend. :tsktsk:

Your arguments make no sense other than in the light of **protest-**ism. As someone said, steep yourself in history, and praise God, you just may see the Light! Your arguments are superficial…please put some depth into it.

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Wormwood]

My aren’t I the popular one?

Actually, it was. Sheepskin condoms were common in Greece and Rome about the time of Jesus. There was even a primitive version of the RU-486 abortion drug known as the “pharmakeia”

Yes and aligator dung was used in egypt, I was refering to a global scale, but this works even better. So if they WERE widely known and used in the area in which Jesus lived, why then no mention on the subject from Jesus himself. If he found this practice abhorrant, why not say something?

Yes. As I mentioned in my previous reply to Shibboleth, God loves us and wants us to avoid teen pregancy, divorce, and the dwindling of our society’s population to nothingness

You can’t be serious?! The world’s population is at an all time high, reaching critical mass in some regions. Do you honestly think because some drunk teenagers use protection and don’t ruin their lives that the worlds population of 6 billion + people, many of whom already have birthcontrol methods, will go extinct?

Careful, you’re sounding judgmental! Somebody named “Wormwood” just wrote a very nice piece warning us about not doing that!

Very astute. Sadly I know my place and it is not among the righteous. Please don’t regaurd me as “holier than thou”, I will be the first to aknowledge my wickedness.

<>**The Bible says the prayers of the righteous fair far better than yours. **

Where does it say pray to other human beings? If the prayers of the righteous are better than yours, then should YOU not strive to be righteous, or does it mean we are all hopeless sinners and righteousness is out of reach? This passage indicates no proof as it is subject to interpretation.

**

Yes, for the sack of conversion. How else will there mind be changed and bring them to the Lord.

OK for the “sack” of conversation, do you realize not once but twice you have tried to justify condemning other people based on religious beliefs. I was under the impression that Christianity was a religion of brotherly love, not naziesque assimilation. What if Jesus is like that, then on judgement day when he is standing with the rest of the hebrews you can dialogue for some conversion. I don’t know if he’s going to go for the idolatry though (statues or people) . The pope gets a larger reception than most entertainers and atheletes combined, yet is it not the meek who shall inherit the earth? Where does the popemobile fit into that? To some your beliefs seem strange too, but that gives them no right to condemn you…think of your early christian martyrs.**