K
KyPerson
Guest
My children just quit. No big reason and they still believe in God, but they just quit going to Mass. They claim they “don’t have time”. I pray for them every day. Most non-practicing Catholics I know are like this.
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johnd2
Guest
I have to say I have been battling with this myself for several reasons.
1.) The Church is always talking about justice, but rarely can provide justice itself. Whistleblower priests are punished, continuing sex abuse (our diocese had another case in the past few years where the bishop failed to remove a priest who has now been charged by civil authorities).
In the Ft. Worth diocese, the bishop removed a priest for fraternal correction. Priest much loved by the congregation. This is not the only issue with the bishop. There are many others and Catholics in the diocese have now petitioned the Pope to remove him. There are over 5,000 pages of testimony. Inaction on the petition is mind blowing. As they say, “justice delayed is justice denied.”
In the Covington diocese, I heard that several nuns were raking-off contributions to a local elementary school and deposited in a separate school account. Based the on advertisements received at the school from casinos, it is believed that they were using the money to gamble. When reported, the nuns were shipped off to Arizona as I recall. Don’t know if the diocese ever reported this to the IRS and paid the taxes owed.
2.) Lay people not involved in personnel decisions. Too often priests who are assigned to parishes are not vetted for abuse; or they are not “culturally” aligned to the parishioners creating a lot of conflict. We need a say on the priests who are to be assigned to the parishes. Bishops can no longer be trusted with this important task.
3.) Catholic education is a RIGHT for Catholic children. This is one of the most important activities of the Church and they are ignoring it. Right now Catholic education is becoming available to the very rich and the poor. Rich have the money, and poor people get vouchers or other sources of money. Middle-class Catholics are being left out in the cold.
My belief is that second to funding parishes, the Church should be funding education. The Church is absolutely involved in too many other areas and money is spread too thin. When I was a child, the school and the local parish was the center of our activity. When you don’t have kids in a Catholic school, families tend to wander away. The school kept families engaged. As more and more Catholics can no longer afford a Catholic education, I see them no longer going to mass, no longer engaged, and not educating their children in the faith.
I know some of you will say that it is the responsibility of parents to educate their children. However, with large families, two parents needing to work, and the time required to work, parents are too tired at the end of the day. Catholic school provided a much needed resource for Catholic education in the faith.
Bring back the schools and AFFORDABLE education, and you will bring back families to the faith. Destroy the schools as has been happening, and you will continue to see declines.
…to be continued
1.) The Church is always talking about justice, but rarely can provide justice itself. Whistleblower priests are punished, continuing sex abuse (our diocese had another case in the past few years where the bishop failed to remove a priest who has now been charged by civil authorities).
In the Ft. Worth diocese, the bishop removed a priest for fraternal correction. Priest much loved by the congregation. This is not the only issue with the bishop. There are many others and Catholics in the diocese have now petitioned the Pope to remove him. There are over 5,000 pages of testimony. Inaction on the petition is mind blowing. As they say, “justice delayed is justice denied.”
In the Covington diocese, I heard that several nuns were raking-off contributions to a local elementary school and deposited in a separate school account. Based the on advertisements received at the school from casinos, it is believed that they were using the money to gamble. When reported, the nuns were shipped off to Arizona as I recall. Don’t know if the diocese ever reported this to the IRS and paid the taxes owed.
2.) Lay people not involved in personnel decisions. Too often priests who are assigned to parishes are not vetted for abuse; or they are not “culturally” aligned to the parishioners creating a lot of conflict. We need a say on the priests who are to be assigned to the parishes. Bishops can no longer be trusted with this important task.
3.) Catholic education is a RIGHT for Catholic children. This is one of the most important activities of the Church and they are ignoring it. Right now Catholic education is becoming available to the very rich and the poor. Rich have the money, and poor people get vouchers or other sources of money. Middle-class Catholics are being left out in the cold.
My belief is that second to funding parishes, the Church should be funding education. The Church is absolutely involved in too many other areas and money is spread too thin. When I was a child, the school and the local parish was the center of our activity. When you don’t have kids in a Catholic school, families tend to wander away. The school kept families engaged. As more and more Catholics can no longer afford a Catholic education, I see them no longer going to mass, no longer engaged, and not educating their children in the faith.
I know some of you will say that it is the responsibility of parents to educate their children. However, with large families, two parents needing to work, and the time required to work, parents are too tired at the end of the day. Catholic school provided a much needed resource for Catholic education in the faith.
Bring back the schools and AFFORDABLE education, and you will bring back families to the faith. Destroy the schools as has been happening, and you will continue to see declines.
…to be continued
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johnd2
Guest
…continued
4.) Lack of priests limits the engagement with families. Hardly ever see parish priests around Catholic activities. Our parish priests never greets parishioners after mass. Too many other things going on. Deacons, if a parish has one, is helpful, but not the same. We need more priests. Allowing married priests (apostolic tradition had some apostles married and early church had married priests, bishops, etc. so time to restore that tradition). Bringing in priests from other countries is not the answer as in many cases they are out of touch with local parish culture. We are currently over-working priests with handling multiple parishes.
5.) Sacrament of Reconciliation is humiliating for many Catholics that I have talked to. They just don’t go. Why not offer general absolution of sins before mass? Those who feel the need to go to a personal confession can still do so.
6.) It is our money being donated, we need more say in how it is spent.
7.) We are adults and need to be treated as such. Why aren’t we ever asked for (name removed by moderator)ut, comments, how to improve the parishes? No matter what we want, a parish pastor can always overrule our desires. This is wrong. We are not children. We have very educated and talented people. Priests never have all the answers. Let’s start using all our resources and not just looked at as children with money to donate.
…to be continued
4.) Lack of priests limits the engagement with families. Hardly ever see parish priests around Catholic activities. Our parish priests never greets parishioners after mass. Too many other things going on. Deacons, if a parish has one, is helpful, but not the same. We need more priests. Allowing married priests (apostolic tradition had some apostles married and early church had married priests, bishops, etc. so time to restore that tradition). Bringing in priests from other countries is not the answer as in many cases they are out of touch with local parish culture. We are currently over-working priests with handling multiple parishes.
5.) Sacrament of Reconciliation is humiliating for many Catholics that I have talked to. They just don’t go. Why not offer general absolution of sins before mass? Those who feel the need to go to a personal confession can still do so.
6.) It is our money being donated, we need more say in how it is spent.
7.) We are adults and need to be treated as such. Why aren’t we ever asked for (name removed by moderator)ut, comments, how to improve the parishes? No matter what we want, a parish pastor can always overrule our desires. This is wrong. We are not children. We have very educated and talented people. Priests never have all the answers. Let’s start using all our resources and not just looked at as children with money to donate.
…to be continued
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johnd2
Guest
…continued
8.) Parishes should start offering a faster mass each Sunday for those people who need to attend, but cannot afford an entire hour. One of our former parishes just had too much wasted time at mass with people walking from pews to the pulpit to read or sing.
9.) Homily - Many are boring and have endless repetition. Can we just have a short homily that is to the point? After five minutes, many people’s minds wander and they are no longer getting a message.
10.) Catholic Bible study - why is this not offered at each parish?
11.) Knights of Columbus. Being a member, it is more of an insurance company disguised as a fraternal group. If it were aligned with Fr. McGivney’s mission it would not deny issuing policies for members. Denying some coverage is not true to McGivney’s mission making it truly an insurance company first and foremost. Also, why don’t we get to vote of the leadership? Why can’t we see detailed financial reports? Why aren’t these published annually? Why don’t we get a say on where donations go? Also, I am tried of selling raffle tickets. Plus, here again, parish priests can always veto anything we want to do. Still a member, but not active.
12.) I could go on about where I am and where many others are. In summary, lay people want more control - not over the religious aspects per se, but how they are conducted and what happens with our money along with personnel decisions. We also need to make Catholic education affordable for the middle-class or we will continue to lose the middle-class. And finally, start listening to Catholics. Reach out so they feel a part of the Church.
JMHO
8.) Parishes should start offering a faster mass each Sunday for those people who need to attend, but cannot afford an entire hour. One of our former parishes just had too much wasted time at mass with people walking from pews to the pulpit to read or sing.
9.) Homily - Many are boring and have endless repetition. Can we just have a short homily that is to the point? After five minutes, many people’s minds wander and they are no longer getting a message.
10.) Catholic Bible study - why is this not offered at each parish?
11.) Knights of Columbus. Being a member, it is more of an insurance company disguised as a fraternal group. If it were aligned with Fr. McGivney’s mission it would not deny issuing policies for members. Denying some coverage is not true to McGivney’s mission making it truly an insurance company first and foremost. Also, why don’t we get to vote of the leadership? Why can’t we see detailed financial reports? Why aren’t these published annually? Why don’t we get a say on where donations go? Also, I am tried of selling raffle tickets. Plus, here again, parish priests can always veto anything we want to do. Still a member, but not active.
12.) I could go on about where I am and where many others are. In summary, lay people want more control - not over the religious aspects per se, but how they are conducted and what happens with our money along with personnel decisions. We also need to make Catholic education affordable for the middle-class or we will continue to lose the middle-class. And finally, start listening to Catholics. Reach out so they feel a part of the Church.
JMHO
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
I’m a woman, but it has nothing to do with me being a woman and it doesn’t involve actual people at my church, none of whom act this way and none of whom I have “relationships” with. I rarely talk to anyone at any of the Catholic churches I attend and am not going to most of my prayer groups where I was on a “hello” relationship with the participants, due to COVID. It’s also not referring to any of my real life priests, who are all nice guys and don’t give political sermons. I’m talking about the groundswell of people actlng the fool on the Internet, including those who put down any priest who doesn’t take a side or advocate for a candidate/ political position. When you join a group because you’re interested in prayer or in advancing someone’s sainthood, and for a while everybody is praying in a fairly balanced way, and then they suddenly start spouting off about politics endlessly, it’s off-putting.
As a general rule, I would suggest that you not genderize when it comes to people’s feelings and especially with mine. I’m probably one of the folks on this forum least interested in/ affected by the idea of gender, for reasons I won’t get into here (except to state that I am not gay or trans in case that needs to be said).
As a general rule, I would suggest that you not genderize when it comes to people’s feelings and especially with mine. I’m probably one of the folks on this forum least interested in/ affected by the idea of gender, for reasons I won’t get into here (except to state that I am not gay or trans in case that needs to be said).
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VonDerTann
Guest
Great series of thought provoking posts. Thank you.
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phil3
Guest
Did your go to your church and ask to help put together such such support for them to offer to others?
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VonDerTann
Guest
I did not: I was in no position to help anyone.
P
phil3
Guest
So you wanted some one else to step up to the plate? What if every one in your church was in ther same position as you?
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VonDerTann
Guest
Yeah, I knew that’s where you were going.
Sorry, Phil, the church completely failed the entire parish at that juncture. It failed me; it failed my first responder wife who I didn’t see for a week; it failed her mom who needed emergency surgery during the height of the hurricane and who I was caring for. It failed my neighbors; it failed the non Catholic community who could have used a Bit of warmth and electrical power - both of which the parish had in spades, and which the Baptists provided.
You’ve already condemned me, not knowing anything I was dealing with at that juncture.
Your doing so highlights another reason people leave the church: the propensity of some people in the pews to unreasonably blame the victim whenever the church fails its mission. Some people who are victims of priest sexual abuse say “the parents shouldn’t have left Johnny alone with the priest,” as if that excuses the priests’ actions. That’s really exactly what you’re doing to me.
Sorry, Phil, the church completely failed the entire parish at that juncture. It failed me; it failed my first responder wife who I didn’t see for a week; it failed her mom who needed emergency surgery during the height of the hurricane and who I was caring for. It failed my neighbors; it failed the non Catholic community who could have used a Bit of warmth and electrical power - both of which the parish had in spades, and which the Baptists provided.
You’ve already condemned me, not knowing anything I was dealing with at that juncture.
Your doing so highlights another reason people leave the church: the propensity of some people in the pews to unreasonably blame the victim whenever the church fails its mission. Some people who are victims of priest sexual abuse say “the parents shouldn’t have left Johnny alone with the priest,” as if that excuses the priests’ actions. That’s really exactly what you’re doing to me.
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JanR
Guest
johnd2 – You’ve made some good and valid points.
I must differ with you on number 8 – offering “faster” Masses. I don’t find it time wasting at all when members of the congregation walk from their pews to read or sing. That’s part of the celebration, and I am grateful members of the laity are allowed to participate in this manner. An hour really isn’t that long when people are fully engaged in the services.
When we had a regular priest, we also had a choir. I loved our having a choir. That, too, was part of the celebration of Mass, and honoring of God through song. We now only have an itinerant priest who comes in Friday at noon and Saturday evening to say Mass, and there is no longer any Sunday Mass. Too bad!
But, that is largely our own fault. There were people in our parish who disliked and disagreed with our regular priest, even though I could find nothing really wrong about him. He was actually a very holy priest. But – parish politics, again. A few arrogant souls deciding the fate of the rest of us. When the diocese surveyed the congregation to get our feedback, those few must have said some rather strong objections about our priest, because shortly thereafter, he was transferred. I, too, participated in the survey. I found him spiritually nourishing and inspiring, and wanted us to be able to keep him. But, my little, itty-bitty wishes didn’t count, nor did those of others who reported favorably of him. So, we lost our priest. Thank you, Big Shots!
As for number 9, the homilies – those said by our regular priest were never boring. He offered some very helpful homilies, and my only beef was that little kids screaming and crying would drown out his homilies because their parents were too inconsiderate or indifferent and wouldn’t use the cry room so the rest of us could hear our priest. If any of us dared to request this basic courtesy, we were accused of being “unfriendly” toward children.
Every parish has it’s faults and its good points. None are perfect. You have raised some valid issues, and I hope at least some of them get taken seriously.
Thank you for sharing.
JanR
I must differ with you on number 8 – offering “faster” Masses. I don’t find it time wasting at all when members of the congregation walk from their pews to read or sing. That’s part of the celebration, and I am grateful members of the laity are allowed to participate in this manner. An hour really isn’t that long when people are fully engaged in the services.
When we had a regular priest, we also had a choir. I loved our having a choir. That, too, was part of the celebration of Mass, and honoring of God through song. We now only have an itinerant priest who comes in Friday at noon and Saturday evening to say Mass, and there is no longer any Sunday Mass. Too bad!
But, that is largely our own fault. There were people in our parish who disliked and disagreed with our regular priest, even though I could find nothing really wrong about him. He was actually a very holy priest. But – parish politics, again. A few arrogant souls deciding the fate of the rest of us. When the diocese surveyed the congregation to get our feedback, those few must have said some rather strong objections about our priest, because shortly thereafter, he was transferred. I, too, participated in the survey. I found him spiritually nourishing and inspiring, and wanted us to be able to keep him. But, my little, itty-bitty wishes didn’t count, nor did those of others who reported favorably of him. So, we lost our priest. Thank you, Big Shots!
As for number 9, the homilies – those said by our regular priest were never boring. He offered some very helpful homilies, and my only beef was that little kids screaming and crying would drown out his homilies because their parents were too inconsiderate or indifferent and wouldn’t use the cry room so the rest of us could hear our priest. If any of us dared to request this basic courtesy, we were accused of being “unfriendly” toward children.
Every parish has it’s faults and its good points. None are perfect. You have raised some valid issues, and I hope at least some of them get taken seriously.
Thank you for sharing.
JanR
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I’m not seeing how my post is hysterical. I simply stated facts in it.
Nor am I offended. Where did you get that from?
Please don’t read stuff into other people’s posts that isn’t there. Disagreement, or pointing out that you made erroneous assumptions, doesn’t equal “offended” or “hysterical”.
Nor am I offended. Where did you get that from?
Please don’t read stuff into other people’s posts that isn’t there. Disagreement, or pointing out that you made erroneous assumptions, doesn’t equal “offended” or “hysterical”.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
??? I’m baffled by that. I AM a woman, and have never pretended to be anything else on this forum. Even my username is feminine.
I was just pointing out that I personally don’t respond to things in a gender-specific or gender-expected way most of the time. I also think it’s a bad idea generally to assume “Women act like X” or “Men act like Y”. That’s all I was getting at.
I was just pointing out that I personally don’t respond to things in a gender-specific or gender-expected way most of the time. I also think it’s a bad idea generally to assume “Women act like X” or “Men act like Y”. That’s all I was getting at.
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DeniseNY
Guest
Cool. I’ll delete my post.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
That’s fine. We good. Carry on.
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phil3
Guest
No one is condemning you. But your are stuck in your own mindsetYou’ve already condemned me, not knowing anything I was dealing with at that juncture.
P
phil3
Guest
How is your user name “feminine”? I dont see it
Tis_Bearself
Patron
It’s a pun on the Irish expression “'Tis herself”.
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Anesti33
Guest
Is “Tis Himself” any less common? I seem to remember our Sisters of Mercy using it frequently for both sexes.It’s a pun on the Irish expression “'Tis herself”.
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It’s actually not your money, but God’s money. You just have been entrusted to be the steward of it.Why do Catholics leave?
–Because of constant demands for money. Constant.
Want me to donate food for the poor? Gladly. But there are many times where the impression I get from the Church is,“I need money now, to enable me to ask for more money again in a few months.” Often the impression I get is that the church is less a tool of evangelization or salvation, so much as it is a little economic engine that exists so it can ask for more and perpetuate itself, to go on asking for more.
Since COVID hit, I have heard nothing from my parish except for one item, namely, a slick glossy cardstock mailer they sent me, asking for money.
Did the parish call me and inquire how I was fairing in the midst of a lockdown? Nope.
Did they offer to do a “drive in mass” to the parish? Nope.
Did they offer anything social, a drive in movie night? Nope.
But they did print a glossy mailer asking for money (at a time when no one has any).
So if I want to be solicited for money from folks who show that my money will be used for little positive (except to print and mail another cardstock mailer!), I’ll know where to look.
EDITING TO ADD: Don’t think some of us haven’t noticed that via the whole “patron”-thing, CAF would like our money too! So there it is.
All we have and all that we are is simply a gift from God.
Of course, being a good steward of God’s money might mean donating it to a church that spends it more wisely, giving it to a parish that does a better job of helping each other in a time of crisis like this one.
But at the end of the day, it’s still God’s money that you are the steward of.
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