Why do Catholics insist on a final judgment over sin?

[OddBird]

I have to tell you, both Catholic and many Protestants alike interpret them with a Catholic take.

@tgGodsway, I’d like to offer you again a quote and a question.

The quote is the Calvin quote I posted earlier in the thread :

“The cause of their [the goats’] ruin shows plainly in their sin and forfeit , when they reject the grace of God’s call.”

(John Calvin, Commentary on Mt 25,31-46 ; is Calvin maybe too Catholic for you ? )

And the question : what do you believe the final judgement is about ? Because after reading through the thread I’d still struggle to state your position.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Catholics don’t believe in Imputed Righteousness.

What do you think about the part of the Eucharistic prayer where the priest says, “giving thanks that you have held us worthy to be in your presence & minister to you.”

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

I was referring to something like this: Infused righteousness versus imputed righteousness – which one entitles us to enter heaven? | Viva Catholic

 

[TheLittleLady]

Do you believe in “Once saved always saved”?

This poster is speaking of the “OSAS” heresy. Martin Luther summed up this idea when he said “Sin boldly. But believe even more boldly in Christ, and rejoice.”

The challenge is that this teaching simply does not hold up to scrutiny. Once under examination, it will result to Calvinism’s double predestination, because that is the only way to square the person who commits the worst sins, the answer will come back to “well, that person was never ‘saved’ because they were not predestined for heaven”.

Baptists believe this, whereas Assemblies of God do not.

Southern Baptist does hold OSAS

How to preach difficult doctrines without splitting your church — Southern Equip

Freewill Baptists do not in as much as they do allow for apostasy.

https://nafwb.org/what-is-a-free-will-baptist/

As you stated, A/G very much teach the fundamental Christian belief that we can reject Christ and go to hell.

Our task is to help people who have bought in to this dangerous set of beliefs, because the danger of simply denying that a Christian can be in a state of sin opens the door for all kinds of wickedness to blossom, to help them see the reality of sin and the beauty of reconciliation.

 

[tgGodsway]

PSBlitz, I’m sorry I don’t see your post. please try again.

 

[SPBlitz]

My post from earlier:

I do wonder what he’d say to Matt. 5: 28-29:

“But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.”

Why would Jesus instruct us to pluck out our eye, lest we suffer Hell, if all that is required is that we accept him as our Lord and personal savior?

 

[tgGodsway]

Catholics don’t believe in Imputed Righteousness. (The idea that we are automatically credited with righteousness and seen as holy before God because we have believed in Jesus.) We believe that, “It is required of stewards that they be found faithful.” (1 Corinthians 4:2)

Autumn-Smoke, … i hear you. and yes, I do believe the gift of eternal salvation is eternal. If you lost it, you could not say you actually had it. But that is neither here nor there. Yes I know the CC does not believe in the gift of righteousness, or imputed righteousness. It is sad because the holy Spirit taught it through the N.T.

“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live?

If a righteous person turns from their righteousness needs to be understood that it is NOT their righteousness at all. Here’s why. We have none of ourselves. (Ro.3) We’be been given a gift of righteousness in seed form, (Ro. 4:5) meaning it must be cultivated and developed through discipleship.

But that righteousness is actually Christ who lives in us. If we practice righteousness, it is simply His works, working through our yielded lives. If someone turns away from this, it is only proof, they have forgotten who they are. When we sin, we do so because we stop believing who God says we are. Who are we? We are sons and daughters of God. We live simply because God’s life dwells in us. That is the only reason why we live.

 

[tgGodsway]

None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die. (Ezekiel 18:24)

Again Ezekiel’s message is not a apples to apples subject. We are righteous only because Christ, the Righteous one, lives in us. Period. We’ve been born into a righteous family and we didn’t deserve it. This is why eternal life is a free gift. In of ourselves it is impossible to be saved because there are NONE righteous, no, not one. Paul said in Ro. 3.

jesus said that those who endure until the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13)

This passage is taken out of it’s context. The context is the 7 year tribulation to which those persecuted by the anti-christ are challenged to “endure” his persecution to the end. The end is til the end of his persecution when God’s Son will come in His glory to save-deliver those remnant believers from their hour of trial. There is nothing in the context that answers the question about eternal life.

For we share in Christ , if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.” Even St. Paul wasn’t completely assured of his own salvation when he said, “I force my body into submission, so that after I have preached to others, I myself may not be disqualified from winning the prize” (I Corinthians 9:27)

The Hebrew writer is concerned with the problem of those who draw back from their Christian commitment and conviction. Those who do so, of course, abandon the church (10:25.) The church is the visible household of faith from which they withdraw.
Keep in mind that the word Church from it’s Greek counterpart is the word ekklesia, a compound word to mean those who are called out. The called out ones… Called out of what?.. This distinction is crucial to understand passages like this one in Hebrews 3.
If these people in question draw back from their commitment and conviction they in essence, draw back from the Church. The “church” and the “body of Christ” are not interchangeable terms. The Church is the visible house of God, for all to see and know.

The body of Christ, on the other hand, are the souls of men universally part of God’s family to which Christ has the domain.

If the Christian withdraws from the visible functioning household, that is, from the Church itself, he ceases to be a “partner of Christ.” This is the meaning of Heb. 3:14 where the word for “partaker” is the same word as the one used in verse 1

… who’s house we are if we hold fast the confidence to the end."

You used the word “sharer” but the Greek word there is metochos meaning to partner with, or one who goes into business with. If we lose our confidence or conviction, we cease to partner His cause in the public. But this is not to say we are not united with Him as members of His universal family.

 

[tgGodsway]

We too believe that it is only because of what Jesus did for us that anyone of us will reach heaven, but we believe that our sins can still cause a separation between us and our God.

Reaching heaven is not my aim. Reaching heaven is the end result of one who possess eternal life right now. Sin does separate us from our savior. The separation is in terms of fellowship and communion, not relationship. Jesus said, I will never leave you nor will I ever forsake you.

 

[LilyM]

Autumn-Smoke:

We too believe that it is only because of what Jesus did for us that anyone of us will reach heaven, but we believe that our sins can still cause a separation between us and our God.

Reaching heaven is not my aim. Reaching heaven is the end result of one who possess eternal life right now. Sin does separate us from our savior. The separation is in terms of fellowship and communion, not relationship. Jesus said, I will never leave you nor will I ever forsake you.

He doesn’t forsake us - but we can forsake Him.

I may have the most loving supportive family in the world, but can choose through spite or other reasons to sever my connection with them. I can move town, change my name, address and telephone number, refuse to contact them and remove any means of their being able to reach me.

If I do, then for any purpose that matters I am no longer a part of my family. We still share DNA, but are still not connected in any way that matters or is of any use. And it is my action, or lack thereof, that causes that severing.

 

[tgGodsway]

Calvin is not my favorite and neither is Luther, they were flawed men, as those who opposed them. But God gave them many truths in their hour and they ran with it. I certainly admire them for it. Calvin was brilliant in his day.

I have consistently said that we all will be judged by our works. There is no doubt about it. We will. My issues is how the CC insist that this judgment is going to be over a debt. It is a debt that was paid in full.
The judgment of the nations is an intriguing scripture that certain shows a judgment of works. It is not to be confused with the Judgment seat of Christ, or the great white throne judgment.

Jesus will gather the nations together and then separate them out much like a shepherd who separates sheep from goats. It isn’t that a sheep become a goats in the process, or vice versa, No… It is only about the revealing of who the sheep are and who the goats are, before the review of their works begins.

The purpose of the judgment is not to have eternal life, (both groups already have that in one place or another. heaven or hell.)
it is about inheritance. again it is not about entrance to the kingdom … but ownership of it.

To inherit something in O.T. terms is to take up ownership by merit. When Jesus said, “blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth” the idea was not addressing eternal life as so many assume, but ownership of the earth based on works.
One can enter a room, but this does not mean they own it… Ownership is inheritance… Do a word study on this term from the Old and New Testament, you will be thrilled.

 

[tgGodsway]

I agree with most of what you said. yes you can sever that relationship with them. you can move to china and be separate from them, but, as you said, you were born of them. Their DNA runs through your veins and nothing can reverse the birth. The same is true with God’s spiritual DNA.

If you were born of the Holy Spirit, he will never leave you, even if you leave him in heart, soul and body. … He loves you too much to let go. Even if you do stupid things. This is why He is known for His enduring love to sinners like us. All I can do is respond in gratitude.

 

[LilyM]

I agree with most of what you said. yes you can sever that relationship with them. you can move to china and be separate from them, but, as you said, you were born of them. Their DNA runs through your veins and nothing can reverse the birth. The same is true with God’s spiritual DNA.

If you were born of the Holy Spirit, he will never leave you, even if you leave him in heart, soul and body. … He loves you too much to let go. Even if you do stupid things. This is why He is known for His enduring love to sinners like us. All I can do is respond in gratitude.

No. It is right there in King David’s penitential Psalm (Psalm.51 in most versions) - ‘cast me not from.your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me’

Again, I know full well that my earthly parents love me, but that love will not help me a bit if I cut off ties with them. The Father of the Prodigal Son was merciful, but ONLY when the son woke up to himself and chose to come.back.

The Holy Spirit may inspire and guide but does not force nor control us like some puppetmaster. We are.free agents.

Read John 6 - many people rejected Jesus’ hard teaching and left Him. He did not run after them like a rejected lover begging them.to stay, but let.them go.

Same with Judas at the Last Supper.

 

[bsy]

Good day @tgGodsway,

Correlate John 5 verse 24 with verse 29
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

and there’s Matthew 7:21-23… faith without works is dead.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”
(Who are the ones who prophesy in His name, cast out demons in His name? Aren’t they pastors, preachers, exorcists? Why did Jesus cast them out?)
Jesus is referring to true Christians who have done good and follow the Will of the Father.

How about the PARABLE OF THE SOWER which clearly shows one must endure to the end to be saved…

Matthew 13: 18-23 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. (EASY BELIEVISM …those who raised their hands and stood in front of the congregation with the pastor; but never seen again thinking that by accepting Jesus only once, they are saved.)

But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. (These are the ones who lost faith because of certain trials in life)

Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. (These are the ones who succumb to worldly temptations.)

2But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.” (These are the ones who endures to the end.)

John 5:24 means God’s forgiveness of a truly “repentant” sinner.

 

[tgGodsway]

No. It is right there in King David’s penitential Psalm (Psalm.51 in most versions) - ‘cast me not from.your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me’

Yes, this is a great scripture. David was king of Israel. As king he had a full measure of God’s presence upon his life, A prophet, a priest, and a king are all found with God’s manifest presence in the O.T.

However, none of them were regenerate in their spirit. see 1st. Cor. 6:17. David was not born again of the Holy Spirit, therefore what he was talking about was not about salvation or regeneration, but manifestation. “don’t take the holy Spirit from me…” meaning please continue to influence and guide me.

To make this passage about salvation or regeneration does no justice to the David’s intent when he wrote it. No, O.T. saint had any measure of the Holy Spirit in regeneration. It wasn’t until John chapter 20 on resurrection day, the holy Spirit was given to God’s people.

 

[SPBlitz]

I think my post got buried again:

I do wonder what he’d say to Matt. 5: 28-29:

“But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.”

Why would Jesus instruct us to pluck out our eye, lest we suffer Hell, if all that is required is that we accept him as our Lord and personal savior?

 

[tgGodsway]

Again, I know full well that my earthly parents love me, but that love will not help me a bit if I cut off ties with them. The Father of the Prodigal Son was merciful, but ONLY when the son woke up to himself and chose to come.back.

The Holy Spirit may inspire and guide but does not force nor control us like some puppetmaster. We are.free agents.

I agree to all you said here.

 

[tgGodsway]

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Those who have done good, to the resurrection of life , and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

Yes, this is one of my favorite. But there’s nothing in the text that indicates that the works themselves determine the destiny. To the contrary, one who hears His word and believes in Him, is what brings about eternal life. This message is repeated over and over again in all of John’s gospel. "Doing good to the resurrection of life, is vage, how much good will it take?.. unclear!.. if this was the intent. One thing is emphatically clear, “he who hears his word and believes in Him…”

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven

two things: the broader context is about false prophets who come in sheep’s clothing. You shall now them by their fruits… What does that fruit look like seeing that the sheep’s clothing is all about the outer evidence one can see, such as good behavior,
Not everyone who says to Him Lord Lord shall enter God’s kingdom. Not everyone who claims good works! such as casting out demons and prophesying and doing many wonderful works.

Jesus said, I never knew you… (v23) real believers build their house on the “rock” who is Christ. (v24) This was the fundamental ingredient they lacked. We place our trust in Christ alone. Then God will judge our works to determine, not who we are, but what we have earned by merit for eternity.

 

[tgGodsway]

SPBlitz: … let me get this straight. You want to build doctrine on this one passage?.. what does the rest of the N.T. say?.. Who was Jesus talking to? the unsaved pagan?.. or the Jews who were under the law?.. He was preaching to the general public, a crowd of Jews who at the time, believed in the Law. This should matter when we come to apply a N.T. rendering. The sermon on the mount offers no answers to the subject of Eternal life. Actually neither does the gospel of Matthew. John’s gospel alone answers this narrow question all day long.

 

[tgGodsway]

Frankly, if there is no final judgement

No… I never said that. I said there is no judgment over the penalty of sin. If you are going to obey, obey for the right reasons. Why would anyone want to obey?.. so they won’t go to hell?.. this is the wrong reason. If we obey, it should be because we are grateful that our God loved us enough to save us out of His mercy. This causes me to die to self and live for Him. Serving from fear, bring torment and condemnation. Serving from gratitude and love, makes for great joy and satisfaction. If you want to indulge, … go ahead. see if you can cover up your pain… it never covers…