Why do Catholics insist on a final judgment over sin?

[OddBird]

I’m curious because, if judgment over sin has passed, why does Jesus describe the Judgment of the Son of Man (Mt 25:31-46) as something that is yet to come ?

And moreover, the Judgment scene in Mt 25 precisely is not a judgment between believers and unbelievers. All believe, all call him “Lord”. The “goats” are shocked, not because Jesus was the Lord all along and they didn’t know, but because they knew him and are now told they haven’t taken care of him as they should.

John 5:24 also is followed by John 5:29 : “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

“behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”

By the way, I find it funny that you use this verse to pick on @Thom18 about Mass, as if he had never heard it (it’s part of every single Eucharistic liturgy).

 

[GiftofMercy]

I don’t know how clearer I can be with someone who can’t see the trees but for the forest. Let me try it in reverse. There is a judgement coming for the Christian. But that judgement is not about the penalty of sin. Jesus said so in John 5:24. It’s not that you don’t believe me, you don’t believe Him.

If we are not judged according to our sins, what are we then judged for?
Is an unrepentent serial killer who has found God and continues to sin going to be judged the same as a very holy religious person?

 

[OddBird]

I can’t resist citing a little Calvin here

“Or Christ estend bien plus loin le fruit de la rédemption par luy apportée, d’autant qu’il sera Juge de tout le monde. En après, pour inciter les fidèles à vivre sainctement, il dit qu’elle ne sera pas indifféremment commune à bons et mauvais : pource qu’il apportera avec soy le salaire qui est gardé aux uns et aux autres. En somme, il veut dire que lors l’estat de son Royaume sera dressé comme il faut qu’il demeure, quand les justes auront receu la couronne de gloire, et les réprouvez le payement qu’ils ont mérité.”

And a bit later, about the goats :

“La cause de leur ruine se monstre clairement en leur péché et forfait, quand ils rejettent la grâce de la vocation de Dieu.”

My translation :

“But Christ spreads much farther the fruit of the redemption he brings, as he will be Judge of the whole world. After that [the bit Calvin just commented on], to exhort believers to a holy life, he says it will not be indifferently the same for good and bad : for he will bring with him the salary who is being kept for the ones as for the others. In short, he means that his Kingdom will be then established as it should be and remain, when the just have received the crown of glory, and the reprobate the payment they deserved.”

“The cause of their [the goats’] ruin shows plainly in their sin and forfeit, when they reject the grace of God’s call.”

John Calvin, Commentary on Matthew 25

It’s not just Catholics.

 

[meltzerboy2]

If not about sin, what do Protestants believe the final judgment is about?

 

[OddBird]

I’d say, “if not about sin, what do you believe the final judgment is about ?”
Because most Protestants I know (and that’s quite a lot) do believe the final judgment is about sin.

 

[fhansen]

He did make us righteous in seed form. Christ in us as the hope of Glory, is our seed. But we still live in a sinful frame. Until we have glorified bodies, we will always have sin. John said it this way, “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” 1st John 1:8

I believe John was speaking of pre-conversion since John also said that those who know God do not continue to sin. But I agree anyway; while in these bodies sin will be a struggle to overcome. But overcome we must; progress in actual righteousness is expected and demanded even if the finishing touches are accomplished in purgatory. This whole idea of being snow-covered dung-heaps, of being sinners whose present and future sins are automatically ignored, dismissed and not counted against them, gives satan a great big grin. It perverts and subverts the gospel and at best introduces confusion into people’s minds.

It seems to be a common theme with Protestants on this thread, at least, that as long as we have faith and trust in God then He will make us righteous. While I prefer that notion to anti-nomianism or any of its variants, I still think it puts the cart ahead of the horse in terms of what we can be certain will happen.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

I’d say, “if not about sin, what do you believe the final judgment is about ?”
Because most Protestants I know (and that’s quite a lot) do believe the final judgment is about sin.

Quite right. It is worth noting that many (most?) Protestants are not “once saved always saved” believers.

I was 30 years a Baptist and the fact that you could lose your salvation if you lived a sinful life was a frequent sermon theme.

 

[TheLittleLady]

But our status of authority is an earned status.

Please, point me to the scriptures, to the early Church fathers.

 

[TheLittleLady]

You yourself have stated that people can sin as much as they desire, die in that state of sin and go to heaven (to be a janitor). It is not about “liking theology”, it is about rational theology.

 

[Thom18]

Thom18:

What you seem to be ignoring, however, is the nature of a sin (and Passover) offering in that they must never cease. The Lord was fairly clear that sacrifice must be unceasing-

really? please reference scripture to support this notion.

Just look at any of the Last Supper accounts when Jesus says “do this, as often as you do this, in memory of me”, read Saint Paul when he says that Christ our Passover has been sacrificed, so “keep the feast”, and then see the Old Testament as it’s concerned about offerings.

Then, when you have done this, show me where “scripture alone” is found in Scripture, as well as who teaches it prior to the middle ages.

 

[tgGodsway]

LilyM, It looks like people have been busy with my comments to you. That’s okay.

And somehow you think this is NOT about penalty for sin?

I only think it is not because it doesn’t say it is. I try not to read scripture through a preconceived bias. I read it at face value. I read it in it’s context. In the Matt. 20 story it is offered as a story, not a real event. In the Matthew 8 narrative, Jesus doesn’t say it is a story or a figure of speech but treats it as something that triggered something in the future where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would be in attendance because of their great faith.

How exactly, in your view, do the ones ‘glaring in from outside’ end up so if not as penalty for their sin?

Again, we tend to read a preconceived bias into the passage, and thus make the passage say something it was not intending to say. The King James version renders Mt. 8 to say they were thrown into “outer darkness” only because James didn’t know how to explain it in the English language.

The Greek text renders it “outside in the dark.” This conclusion fits more likely to the story in both cases.

In Mt. 20 Jesus told the story of one of God’s “friends,” who wondered into the banquet but not allowed to be apart of the celebration. The assumption in both Catholic and many Protestant circles is that the wedding banquet will be filled ONLY with the Church and ALL of the Church body, not just some.

It is a celebration of the faithful bride who endured the evils of this life! In attendance will be all the O.T. worthies, and the great apostles of the N.T. as well along with many saints of God.

Jesus described it as those who have, not just faith!, but great faith! The kind that He had not seen in all Israel. He made that distinction, not me.

All of this is true, however, not all of God’s kids will have great faith, and not all of them will be at this banquet, is the point.

You may assume those standing on the outside in the dark either lost their salvation, (as many Protestants believe) or… they never achieved what you believe is a final justification.

But there is nothing in either story to indicate this. Only evidence to the opposite. In the Mat. 8 story Jesus said the “Children of God” will be outside in the dark. God’s kids (but not all of them) will not be inside the celebration, but outside crying!.. This is a perfect depiction of what the Judgment seat of Christ will look like according to the Apostle Paul in his writings to the Corinthian church.

The friend of God (Mt. 20) was also not allowed to attend. If he was an unsaved man, God would not call him friend.

 

[LilyM]

LilyM, It looks like people have been busy with my comments to you. That’s okay.

LilyM:

And somehow you think this is NOT about penalty for sin?

I only think it is not because it doesn’t say it is. I try not to read scripture through a preconceived bias. I read it at face value. I read it in it’s context. In the Matt. 20 story it is offered as a story, not a real event. In the Matthew 8 narrative, Jesus doesn’t say it is a story or a figure of speech but treats it as something that triggered something in the future where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would be in attendance because of their great faith.

How exactly, in your view, do the ones ‘glaring in from outside’ end up so if not as penalty for their sin?

Again, we tend to read a preconceived bias into the passage, and thus make the passage say something it was not intending to say. The King James version renders Mt. 8 to say they were thrown into “outer darkness” only because James didn’t know how to explain it in the English language.

The Greek text renders it “outside in the dark.” This conclusion fits more likely to the story in both cases.

In Mt. 20 Jesus told the story of one of God’s “friends,” who wondered into the banquet but not allowed to be apart of the celebration. The assumption in both Catholic and many Protestant circles is that the wedding banquet will be filled ONLY with the Church and ALL of the Church body.

Jesus described it as those who have, not just faith!, but great faith! The kind that He had not seen in all Israel. He made that distinction, not me.

But there is nothing in either story to indicate this. Only evidence to the opposite. In the Mat. 8 story Jesus said the “Children of God” will be outside in the dark. God’s kids (but not all of them) will not be inside the celebration, but outs
ide crying!.. This is a perfect depiction of what the Judgment seat of Christ will look like according to the Apostle Paul in his writings to the Corinthian church.

The friend of God (Mt. 20) was also not allowed to attend. If he was an unsaved man, God would not call him friend.

Matthew 8 has no reference to 'chidren of God ’ Jesus is comparing the faith of the Jews, the people of Israel, to that of the centurion who was Roman. It is some of the ‘children of the kingdom (of Israel)’ who will not enter the banquet

Matt 20 has no reference.to a wedding banquet at all. What chapter do you mean?

I asked, really, quite a simple question. How does someone end up outside the banquet?

You said nothing remotely to the point except that Abraham, Isaac nd Jacob presumably were inside, because of their “faith”.

So what exactly do you mean by “having great faith” and how can we tell that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had faith? How can I tell that you have faith, or that I do, for that matter?

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

Dear @tgGodsway: What would you think of I Peter 4:17&18 “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

And Hebrews 10:30&31 “The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

And 2 Corinthians 5:9-1 “Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.”

A reading of the letters to the churches in Revelation shows us just how much God requires of his people. “Those who are worthy will walk with me in white” – Jesus was talking to members of the church when he said this in Revelation 3:4

And as someone already mentioned, Jesus said that we will be held accountable for every idle word we speak. This will be at our judgement and it is a judgement of both sin and rewards for faithfulness.

Yes, Jesus paid the price for us, but we are very much held accountable. The price he paid was great, and to those who have been given much, much will be required.

 

[tgGodsway]

Matthew 8 has no reference to 'children of God ’ Jesus is comparing the faith of the Jews, the people of Israel, to that of the centurion who was Roman. It is some of the ‘children of the kingdom (of Israel)’ who will not enter the banquet

Some translations have the word “sons” while others have the word “children” in Mt. 8. They both come from the same Greek word. There is a comparison, but it is not between the Jews and the Centurion, as much as it is between those who have great faith and those who do not.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all those who come from the east and west (suggesting people from everywhere) will come to “sit” down in the kingdom. It is a combination of people not just Jew. Jesus was including the Centurion in the mix.

(I also added the women who’s daughter was demon possessed. She was willing to eat the crumbs that

fell from the Master’s table. Why did I include her? Because she is the only other one in the entire N.T. who expressed great faith)
Yet other sons, or children, will not be permitted to attend.

Matt 20 has no reference.to a wedding banquet at all. What chapter do you mean?

Sorry bro. the passage is Mt. 22:12

I asked, really, quite a simple question. How does someone end up outside the banquet?

They ended up outside of the banquet because they did not qualify for it. These sons did not make an investment to the kingdom of God. The judgment seat of Christ is a judgment of works. These sons didn’t make it. That’s the point.

You said nothing remotely to the point except that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob presumably were inside, because of their “faith”.

So what exactly do you mean by “having great faith” and how can we tell that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had faith? How can I tell that you have faith, or that I do, for that matter?

Jesus didn’t answer this question in Mt. 8. He only pointed it out. When the Centurion said, "only say the word and my servant will be healed, (v8) Jesus reacted to it.

The narration says, “When Jesus heard it!.. He marveled… and said to those who followed. Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such GREAT faith not even in Israel.” It can be seen that the great faith was demonstrated by the Centurion who said, Only say the word!.. (you don’t need to come to my house and lay hands on him, just speak your life-giving words, only!.. )

This was the great faith Jesus was talking about. He likened it to a future event. Meaning a reward will be offered to people like the Centurion and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and those who come from the east and west. But not all of God’s sons will be rewarded. Some of them will be throw outside in the dark.

 

[fhansen]

He did make us righteous in seed form. Christ in us as the hope of Glory, is our seed.

I think this is a good point. Our justice or righteousness is given in seed or seedling form. We can call it Christ in us, the indwelling of the Spirit, the virtues of faith, hope, and love, the life of grace, etc. And we can agree that we must walk in this life, in this light; we must “invest” what we’re given and we have the option to do otherwise.

So I think we can do away with the idea of righteousness being merely imputed or declared. We’re forgiven and cleansed of sin but we’re also made something better at justification. I think we need to get over the idea that God’s only happy when we keep kicking ourselves about how worthless and bad we are and that we can never overcome sin -or that our goodness can have nothing to do with us in the ontological and personal sense because the best we can be is sort of a puppet or automaton, with no identity, that Christ lives through.

In truth God is saying, ‘Ok, we’ve covered that now; let’s move on past that-I have something better for you than to be a worthless worm that I elected to heaven in spite of yourself’. Because God loves us, lavishly, and our individual identities-He made them as unique expressions of Himself, potentially, at least. When we come to God He gives us more of who we really are. He wants us to blossom; He wants more for us than we can possibly imagine; He wants us to be good, as everything He creates is inherently good to begin with. He wants that for our personal good, for our betterment, our greatness even. God is a Lover, a Giver, and His glory comes, for one thing, from how much goodness He wants to shower on His creation.

We just cannot do it without Him and He gives us the option of doing it with Him, or going it alone, which produces nothing good other than, hopefully, the lesson that we cannot go it alone, the lesson that nothing good does come of that…other than learning the lesson itself. As Pope Benedict wrote in Spe Salvi, “Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope.” Simple enough.

 

[tgGodsway]

Dear @tgGodsway: What would you think of I Peter 4:17&18 “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

Okay Autumn-Smoke. These are really great scriptures here. I have to tell you, both Catholic and many Protestants alike interpret them with a Catholic take. For you, (if you are Catholic) you’re probably gonna’ read this from the preposition that says there is a coming judgment over the content of your sin.

In other words, God will offer a final pronouncement about you, with either a final justification or condemnation sentence all based on whether or not you “walked with God and obeyed to the standard He wanted.” No one seems to know exactly to what degree that standard is. Typically people approach this passage assuming that 1st. Peter 4 was talking about salvation in the context of eternity. I do not agree. Here’s why.

The cross was the only judgment of sin. And as support to this notion, John 5:24, and many other passages, (where the “judgment of sin” was placed on Christ alone at the cross), we “… shall not come into (this kind of) judgment!! … but have passed from death to life,” (Jn 5:24) … in light of this, any and all other judgments (found in scripture) are understood to be for different reasons other than a sin debt!

Again, yes we will all be judged! but not in regard to sin’s penalty which is eternal death in hell. Why?
Christ paid it all!.. Hebrews 9:26 says, “… he has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”… Therefore when I see the words “judgment” (as you have spelled it out for me) I say yes, agreed! There will be a judgment for all believers.

The 1st. Peter 4 passage tells us this judgment begins with the house of God first. God will judge His own house, according to our works. All agreed!

But for what purpose? … to pay for sin?.. to finish the deal?.. No way!.. Jesus said “it is finished!” sin’s penalty was satisfied forever … but others have said no… not yet… a final examination and declaration of YOU will finish it! … really? the concept of a free gift goes right out the window with this kind of thinking. It’s acts 15 all over again.

"If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear? (v18)

Context, context context. If you will take the time to see how verse 18 is sandwiched inside a narrative of persecution, you will get a better interpretation. (see verse 12-19) If the righteous (in Christ family) is scarcely saved (from persecution) where will the ungodly and the sinner appear? v19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful creator."

 

[TheLittleLady]

So, we are free to murder, steal, fornicate, perform abortions and exploit people. There is not a single reason to restrain our worst temptation, because, we are all going to heaven. That is the sort of religion you are selling? How does this differ from Satanism?

 

[SPBlitz]

Hey TG, I had a comment above you may have missed that I’m interested to get your opinion on

 

[LilyM]

I asked, really, quite a simple question. How does someone end up outside the banquet?

They ended up outside of the banquet because they did not qualify for it. These sons did not make an investment to the kingdom of God. The judgment seat of Christ is a judgment of works. These sons didn’t make it. That’s the point.

You said nothing remotely to the point except that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob presumably were inside, because of their “faith”.

So what exactly do you mean by “having great faith” and how can we tell that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had faith? How can I tell that you have faith, or that I do, for that matter?

Jesus didn’t answer this question in Mt. 8. He only pointed it out. When the Centurion said, "only say the word and my servant will be healed, (v8) Jesus reacted to it.

The narration says, “When Jesus heard it!.. He marveled… and said to those who followed. Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such GREAT faith not even in Israel.” It can be seen that the great faith was demonstrated by the Centurion who said, Only say the word!.. (you don’t need to come to my house and lay hands on him, just speak your life-giving words, only!.. )

This was the great faith Jesus was talking about. He likened it to a future event. Meaning a reward will be offered to people like the Centurion and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and those who come from the east and west. But not all of God’s sons will be rewarded. Some of them will be throw outside in the dark.
[/quote]

The answer is found in James. Faith without works, he says, is dead. Dead faith, of course , is no faith at all and will not save.

He then goes on to say that he shows his faith through his works. And challenges his readers to do the same. That is why Christ says that not all who call Him Lord will be saved.

This includes your .centurion and every single one of the others. Not one of them “invested” merely by sitting on their backsides thinking pretty thoughts or saying pretty speeches. They all DID the works of.faith. Of that you can be sure, and if James says our faith expresses itself in works then a great faith is expressed by great works.

The greatness of the work of course depends on ones own circumstances,. This is why the poor widow who gave two small coins did better than some of the rich who gave more. But works are an essential part of faith.

Trees are judged by their fruit - the righteous by the good fruit of good.works.done out of.faith…And those with no fruit? Or fruit of evil deeds? Well, they will be cursed like the barren fig tree - cast out of His presence into everlasting fire. Or, if you prefer, excluded from the banquet. Jealousy and envy form no part of salvation or heaven, contrary to your assertion that they do.

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

Do you believe in “Once saved always saved”? Once saved always saved seems to be what you’re saying. I know Evangelicals are divided on this: e.g., Baptists believe this, whereas Assemblies of God do not. Catholics are among those who do not believe this.

Yes, Jesus came to be the sacrifice which takes our sins away. We all believe that. That has been accomplished. But we believe that Jesus requires his servants to be found worthy. Catholics don’t believe in Imputed Righteousness. (The idea that we are automatically credited with righteousness and seen as holy before God because we have believed in Jesus.) We believe that, “It is required of stewards that they be found faithful.” (1 Corinthians 4:2)

Today’s Gospel reading in Catholic Churches worldwide is a good example. It is about the Servant who said to himself, “my master is delayed” so he went about leading a life of sin, drunkenness and gluttony. When his master did return he threw this servant into the outer darkness–the same as though he had never been his servant. (Luke 12:35:40) “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die. (Ezekiel 18:24)

We may have passed from death unto life, but we could always chose to be like the example in 2 Peter 2:21&22 "It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

Jesus said that those who endure until the end will be saved (Matthew 24:13). Hebrews says, “For we share in Christ , if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.” Even St. Paul wasn’t completely assured of his own salvation when he said, “I force my body into submission, so that after I have preached to others, I myself may not be disqualified from winning the prize” (I Corinthians 9:27)

Maybe we’re going in circles with this thread, I don’t know. We too believe that it is only because of what Jesus did for us that anyone of us will reach heaven, but we believe that our sins can still cause a separation between us and our God.