Why do Catholics insist on a final judgment over sin?

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tgGodsway said:
Look… a word study on the words eternal life with a bible concordance will prove my points easily. But as you say, I’m trying to make it simple and eternal life is so complicated!.. says who?
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Where did Jesus teach that we are to do this?

Are you claiming that He left us orphans?
 
Love when some Protestants boil the whole Christian faith down to one line of the Bible. Makes you wonder why Sacred Scripture is thousands of pages long when all we needed is just one sentence.
 
GodTg’s way: I cannot fathom why this is even important to you. You have convinced yourself that you have a get out of hell free card, so what’s the deal?

You want reasoning? You want scriptures? Well, here’s some reasoning for you and a whole bunch of scriptures. All interpreted with divine - not personal or imagined - authority.

Really.

From the Apostle’s creed via the catechism:

II. TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD**

Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the judgment of the Last Day in his preaching.582 Then will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light.583 Then will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God’s grace as nothing be condemned.584 Our attitude to our neighbor will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love.585 On the Last Day Jesus will say: "Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."586

Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He “acquired” this right by his cross. The Father has given “all judgment to the Son”.587 Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself.588 By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one’s works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love.589

IN BRIEF

680 Christ the Lord already reigns through the Church, but all the things of this world are not yet subjected to him. The triumph of Christ’s kingdom will not come about without one last assault by the powers of evil.

681 On Judgment Day at the end of the world, Christ will come in glory to achieve the definitive triumph of good over evil which, like the wheat and the tares, have grown up together in the course of history.

682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

References:
582 Cf. Dan 7:10; Joel 3-4; Mal 3:19; Mt 3:7-12.
583 Cf Mk 12:38-40; Lk 12:1-3; Jn 3:20-21; Rom 2:16; 1 Cor 4:5.
584 Cf. Mt 11:20-24; 12:41-42.
585 Cf. Mt 5:22; 7:1-5.
586 Mt 25:40.
587 Jn 5:22; cf. 5:27; Mt 25:31; Acts 10:42; 17:31; 2 Tim 4:1.
588 Cf. Lk 21:12; Jn 15:19-20.
589 Cf. Jn 3:18; 12:48; Mt 12:32; 1 Cor 3:12-15; Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-31.
 
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I don’t even know what you are talking about. But it sure feels like you simply don’t like my theology. Sarcasm is used often against me by you. But my post gets thrown off.
 
Even without a sin offering, in Judaism the process of atonement–in word and deed–is a continuous one, never a one shot deal.
 
Now now, slow down a bit. You are not arguing with me, but with Christ via His Church.

Ponder that.

What I posted from the catechism is 100% germane to the argument you have raised. It answers the question definitively. To persist in factious argumentation is to argue against Saint Paul in the scriptures.

Your theology? No Catholic likes it, as it is not biblical. It is not that which was taught by Christ to the Apostles. Why should we agree with it?
 
po18guy. I’m sorry, you are in error again. I am part of that Church to which Christ is my Lord. Ponder that.
My argument is not against Paul. He too sided with Jesus that eternal life is received by grace through faith, apart from works…" It’s a gift!.. but I could quote those verses to you all day long, till my heart bleeds.

The John 5:24 passage has become quite a stumbling block for you. I can see why. It is too simple and straightforward for the complexity of your theology. I don’t expect for Catholics to like my theology. Their responses are predictable. I don’t blame them. Actually I am one of them in heart and soul, raised Catholic.
 
tgGodsway said:
My argument is not against Paul. He too sided with Jesus that eternal life is received by grace through faith, apart from works…" It’s a gift!.. but I could quote those verses to you all day long, till my heart bleeds.
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That you didn’t quote Paul completely “apart from works … of the law” ! Shows you failed to grasp the meaning of that verse and the entire context of Romans.
 
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Curb the polemics, bro"! You brought the fight. I guess you gotta raise those fists.

If you are baptized, what you say is true. If not, you are not Christian.

Something that has always bothered me: Why do you assume that you are right and 1.5 billion Catholic and Orthodox are wrong? Did someone lay hands on you? Are you an Oracle of God? Do you receive visions from Christ? What?
 
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Actually I was paraphrasing out of Ephesians, 2:8, not Romans. So, your comments are painfully wrong my friend.
 
Not really, Paul always talked of works of the law. You failed to read in context the following passage where he uses circumcision as the example, which he made most clear in Romans when he actually discussed in detail boasting and works of law.
 
O’ my… po18guy. the sarcasm in this one is difficult and hurtful. But I will remain humble, as you encouraged me to be. Firstly, I have brought about no fight. I simply asked a question about why Catholics insist the judgment will be all about sin. This is a friendly question.

If I am baptized what i say is true?.. I don’t agree, however, I am baptized. If I assume I am right, I do not stand alone. But being right or wrong is not a numbers game. It never has been. Jesus hung on the tree all by Himself. Every disciple abandoned him at the time. But perhaps fear overtook what they knew in their hearts at least for that moment.

Your point can always be turned in your direction. I don’t seek to debate that way. It is unprofitable. No… John 5:24 is truly a stumbling block, difficult to square with the complexity of your theology. Jesus said what He said so that even a small child could understand.
 
tgGodsway said:
John 5:24 is clear that the judgment over sin “has passed.” There is no judgment over the penalty of one’s sins. It became a finished work when Jesus said so on the cross. He took our eternal penalty for us. He said,

“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”
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But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment.He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence.

Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’

"Many are invited, but few are chosen.”
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This is awesome! Finally! someone who uses real scripture in a challenging way. Justin_Mary this is a great passage. I would like to give you my take on it.

If you connect this passage with Matthew 8:5-13 where Jesus had just healed the Centurion’s servant after the man said, Only say the word and my servant will be healed. Jesus responded with insight. he said, “I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel… many will come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, v12 But the CHILDREN of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness (Lit. darkness outside) there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Mt. 8

Some of God’s children will be reclining at the table in the kingdom of God, while other Children of God will be thrown outside in the dark. They will wale and gnash their teeth. Outside in the dark should be understood in the metaphor. Jerusalem’s streets would be pitch black at night when weddings were performed.

I believe this passage along with the one you just sighted is a depiction of the Marriage supper of the Lamb. The marriage supper of the Lamb is a special supper for the faithful sons and daughters of God. The “friend of God” (in your text) wondered into the supper without the correct wedding clothes, just as the children of God were not permitted to recline at the table of the Lord in Mt. 8.

Neither of them deserved to be there. why? There is a class of failing christian who though they entered the kingdom, because of the free gift of eternal life,… they were not invited to the wedding. Why? The wedding banquet will be filled with the many worthys of the faith. People who have great faith like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. and also the Centurion and the women who told Jesus she would eat the crumbs that fall from the Masters table.

But other children of God didn’t prepare by living out the righteousness of Christ. Rev. 19:8 says it like this: “And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.” Obedient Christians who leave houses and lands and fathers and mothers for the kingdom sake, will all be present at the marriage supper of the lamb. But not all of God’s children will be there. Some of them will be glaring in from outside in the dark. the reality of their failed life will hit them like a brick. They will be angry like those who were stoning Steven in Acts.
 
tgGodsway said:
This is awesome! Finally! someone who uses real scripture in a challenging way. Justin_Mary this is a great passage. I would like to give you my take on it.

If you connect this passage with Matthew 8:5-13 where Jesus had just healed the Centurion’s servant after the man said, Only say the word and my servant will be healed. Jesus responded with insight. he said, “I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel… many will come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, v12 But the CHILDREN of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness (Lit. darkness outside) there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Mt. 8

Some of God’s children will be reclining at the table in the kingdom of God, while other Children of God will be thrown outside in the dark. They will wale and gnash their teeth. Outside in the dark should be understood in the metaphor. Jerusalem’s streets would be pitch black at night when weddings were performed.

I believe this passage along with the one you just sighted is a depiction of the Marriage supper of the Lamb. The marriage supper of the Lamb is a special supper for the faithful sons and daughters of God. The “friend of God” (in your text) wondered into the supper without the correct wedding clothes, just as the children of God were not permitted to recline at the table of the Lord in Mt. 8.

Neither of them deserved to be there. why? There is a class of failing christian who though they entered the kingdom, because of the free gift of eternal life,… they were not invited to the wedding. Why? The wedding banquet will be filled with the many worthys of the faith. People who have great faith like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. and also the Centurion and the women who told Jesus she would eat the crumbs that fall from the Masters table.

But other children of God didn’t prepare by living out the righteousness of Christ. Rev. 19:8 says it like this: “And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.” Obedient Christians who leave houses and lands and fathers and mothers for the kingdom sake, will all be present at the marriage supper of the lamb. But not all of God’s children will be there. Some of them will be glaring in from outside in the dark. the reality of their failed life will hit them like a brick. They will be angry like those who were stoning Steven in Acts.
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And somehow you think this is NOT about penalty for sin? How exactly, in your view, do the ones ‘glaring in from outside’ end up so if not as penalty for their sin? Do you imagine their names are just drawn at random from a hat or something? I’m.really not understanding this.
 
tgGodsway said:
Neither of them deserved to be there. why? There is a class of failing christian who though they entered the kingdom, because of the free gift of eternal life,… they were not invited to the wedding. Why? The wedding banquet will be filled with the many worthys of the faith. People who have great faith like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. and also the Centurion and the women who told Jesus she would eat the crumbs that fall from the Masters table.
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I think your understanding of saved & mine are different. The lady who would eat the scraps that fell off the table & the Centurion who’s servant was healed may or may not make it to heaven. We don’t know. They had faith, yes. That is clear. But did they follow Jesus? We don’t know.

Like the wealthy man who believed, who recognized Jesus & asked, “what must I do to gain eternal life?” After Jesus told him explicitly, the young man walked away very sad.

It is the same for you & for me. We believe Jesus died on the cross atoning for all sin for all time. But we’re still imperfect & nothing imperfect can withstand the presence of God.

He is light & in Him there is no darkness. There can not be. If we were to be permitted in His presence (the wedding supper) & are clothed in darkness (without the wedding garment) we will be destroyed (cast into the fire).

Our sins have been forgiven. From here on out (for you & me) we have to give up all attachment to sin. Though it is possible to reach perfect holiness (complete union with God) in this life it is not likely. If we build our homes (souls) on solid ground (truth) we may survive the fire of the final judgement. If not, all will be destroyed in the fire.
 
I would imagine that TG would comment that the penalty for their sin would be loss of their ‘inheritance’, not salvation (not that I agree with him, just playing Devil’s Advocate).

I do wonder what he’d say to Matt. 5: 28-29:

“But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.”

Why would Jesus instruct us to pluck out our eye, lest we suffer Hell, if all that is required is that we accept him as our Lord and personal savior?
 
Ego, my friend - it is your enemy. Curb it and you will progress in faith.

You - yes, you - would benefit greatly, as do all Christians, from reading and reflecting on Thomas á Kempis’ The Imitation of Christ.
 
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