Why do Protestants become Catholic?

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The world is heading into a one world religion. That means it will be centered in Rome. Someday Rome will be hunting down all of the “true” Christians in the world and killing them.
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:whacky:
 
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believers:
Then you’re one of the few that got the message. I was part of the 70-80’s crowd. You’ve just confirmed my position on the matter. Do you think the problem just disappeared? Those people who were taught back then are now parents of kids who are probably just like their parents in regards to salvation. What if this lukewarm attitude started way before our parents. That would certainly explain CCD classes back then.
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And here is a perfect example of the BIGGEST problem going on in Evangelicalism today. The feeling is (and it’s always about feeling) that if something in going wrong, whether it is lukewarmness, poor teaching, cultural confusion…, just cut and run, go start a new church, let’s try this thing again, one more time people!

The Catholic view is this: if things are going wrong, ok Lord, we’re in this for the long haul. Let’s pray for *guidance * by the Holy Spirit, let’s act on His guidance, let’s work to fix the problem and live to see another 500 glorious years as the ONE TRUE CHURCH. The Lord will never fail us, this He has promised. The gates of hell will not prevail over His Church.

This is why Evangelicalism will never survive the long haul. They don’t have staying power. They don’t have vision for the future, how can they, they don’t believe any of us will be around that long.
 
Jeanette L:
And here is a perfect example of the BIGGEST problem going on in Evangelicalism today. The feeling is (and it’s always about feeling) that if something in going wrong, whether it is lukewarmness, poor teaching, cultural confusion…, just cut and run, go start a new church, let’s try this thing again, one more time people!

The Catholic view is this: if things are going wrong, ok Lord, we’re in this for the long haul. Let’s pray for *guidance * by the Holy Spirit, let’s act on His guidance, let’s work to fix the problem and live to see another 500 glorious years as the ONE TRUE CHURCH. The Lord will never fail us, this He has promised. The gates of hell will not prevail over His Church.

This is why Evangelicalism will never survive the long haul. They don’t have staying power. They don’t have vision for the future, how can they, they don’t believe any of us will be around that long.
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Besides, you have to find jobs for all those people graduating from divinity schools.
 
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sadie2723:
I think I would have said something like this…You must believe that I am saved as I am a faithful member of the Catholic Church and obey their teachings. As we all know, the Catholic Church is without spot or blemish and the pillar and foundation of truth. Thus, as I am a follower of the Church that Jesus founded to be without flaws, I am a saved Christian who follows the faith in exactly the manner in which Christ wanted, and embracing all of the tradition and teaching of the church. I have not fallen victim to the heresy of men who had objectives other than the service of God and left the church to form other denominations. Yes, indeed, it should be clear to you that I am a Christian and that I am saved as I walk with Christ in the method that he, himself, ordained.

Something like that. Goodness, that gave me chills to write!
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sadie2723, I know it to have flaws. Rayne gave a very good example. I would consider that more than a spot or blemish.
 
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believers:
sadie2723, I know it to have flaws. Rayne gave a very good example. I would consider that more than a spot or blemish.
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What part, something that she learned in one class in one parish back in the 70’s? I really hope that you are not trying to say that you are going to judge a 2000 year old church with over a billion members located in every country on the planet by one persons perception of what happened in one parish in one class back in the 70’s.

So show me where the Catholic church is wrong in her teaching. Show me where it is all non-biblical. Show me anything that we teach today that cannot be backed up with scripture.
 
Jeanette L:
And here is a perfect example of the BIGGEST problem going on in Evangelicalism today. The feeling is (and it’s always about feeling) that if something in going wrong, whether it is lukewarmness, poor teaching, cultural confusion…, just cut and run, go start a new church, let’s try this thing again, one more time people!

The Catholic view is this: if things are going wrong, ok Lord, we’re in this for the long haul. Let’s pray for *guidance * by the Holy Spirit, let’s act on His guidance, let’s work to fix the problem and live to see another 500 glorious years as the ONE TRUE CHURCH. The Lord will never fail us, this He has promised. The gates of hell will not prevail over His Church.

This is why Evangelicalism will never survive the long haul. They don’t have staying power. They don’t have vision for the future, how can they, they don’t believe any of us will be around that long.
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Such is the nature of being Protestant. Something you don’t like? Form a new church and invent your own rules:

Is your church teaching something that you don’t like? Have the times moved on and your church is stuck in the past? Does your minster refuse to grab onto the latest anti-Catholic propaganda? Well then, it is time for you to form your own church. For six easy payments of $29.95, we will send you our personal guide to founding your own personal sect of Christianity. Your packet comes complete with the latest fiction books on being left behind that you can play off as being factual, and a guide on how to form your very own theology…BUT WE’RE NOT DONE. If you act now, you will recieve our promotional guide, “How to intimidate your neighbors into thinking that they are all going to burn.”

Operators are standing by.
Brought to you by the United Counsel for Protestant Sepratists. Remember our motto…In order to evangalize, you gotta reorganize!
 
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djrakowski:
I must ask why you keep emphasizing the phrase “in full.” Do you think that Catholic theology doesn’t agree with you?

Every Sunday, I hear the following at Mass in the Penitential Rite:
How anyone could miss the salvation message in this prayer is quite beyond me.

I think rayne89 would agree with me that the priests at our parish are quite clear about the seriousness of sin and our need of a savior. In our parish, at least, you would have to willfully try to avoid hearing it.

Or, is it just that you’re not hearing it in the evangelical way of “repent, commit yourself to the Lord, and you’re locked in for all eternity, regardless of what you do.” Well, if that’s what you’re looking for, then you won’t find it in the Catholic Church, and furthermore, that concept of “once saved, always saved” is thoroughly unbiblical. I strongly recommend that you read “The Salvation Controversy” by James Akin (available in the Catholic Answers bookstore, or you can have my extra copy, no strings attached).
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So this is where they should get the message of salvation right?
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djrakowski:
I confess to Almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do;
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I believe this starts off ok.
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djrakowski:
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.
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This line doesn’t mention the fact that Jesus died on the cross in payment of all our sins. It also fails to mention that we MUST believe in Him and obey which is essential to our salvation.
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djrakowski:
May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life.

Amen.
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God had mercy on us by sending Jesus. Jesus died on the cross because of all our sins. Now, as long as we believe and obey Jesus we will be brought into everlasting life.

As for “once saved always saved”, Catholics are not exempt from this belief. I know plenty who believe their saved just because they were baptized as a baby. Maybe that also contributes to the lukewarm attitude?
 
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believers:
So this is where they should get the message of salvation right?

I believe this starts off ok.

This line doesn’t mention the fact that Jesus died on the cross in payment of all our sins. It also fails to mention that we MUST believe in Him and obey which is essential to our salvation.

God had mercy on us by sending Jesus. Jesus died on the cross because of our all sins. Now, as long as we believe and obey Jesus we will be brought into everlasting life.

As for “once saved always saved”, Catholics are not exempt from this belief. I know plenty who believe their just because they were baptized as a baby. Maybe that also contributes to the lukewarm attitude?
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There is not a Catholic on the planet that does not understand that Jesus died for our sins. I also don’t know of a single Catholic that does not understand that we have to obey him. What is your point with this? Is it that you went to Mass and they did not preach on Salvation that Sunday so you think it does not happen? That is rubbish.

Also, I really do not care if you know a Catholic that thinks this, or a Catholic that thinks that. I am sure that I can find a Protestant out there that thinks that if he studies his Bible hard enough that he can jump off a building and fly. That has nothing to do with what his church is teaching. Thus, if you find me a Catholic out there that believes in Once Saved Always Saved, that is no reflection on what the Church is teaching.
 
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sadie2723:
Such is the nature of being Protestant. Something you don’t like? Form a new church and invent your own rules:

Is your church teaching something that you don’t like? Have the times moved on and your church is stuck in the past? Does your minster refuse to grab onto the latest anti-Catholic propaganda? Well then, it is time for you to form your own church. For six easy payments of $29.95, we will send you our personal guide to founding your own personal sect of Christianity. Your packet comes complete with the latest fiction books on being left behind that you can play off as being factual, and a guide on how to form your very own theology…BUT WE’RE NOT DONE. If you act now, you will recieve our promotional guide, “How to intimidate your neighbors into thinking that they are all going to burn.”

Operators are standing by.
Brought to you by the United Counsel for Protestant Sepratists. Remember our motto…In order to evangalize, you gotta reorganize!
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Umm…this is quite unnecessary, mean-spiritited, and offensive.

Are those who post here using similar language on Catholics well received?
 
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mozart-250:
Umm…this is quite unnecessary and mean-spiritied.

If I were to post similar language here on Catholics, do you think it would be well received?
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Sorry if it came off mean spirited. That was not my intent. My intent was to show how rediculous it is that people get together and decide what the church is going to teach. The church is not a democracy, and that is my point. If I crossed the line…I am sorry.
 
For Believers:

Here is the Nicene Creed professed at Mass. I think that it has what you are looking for.

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfilment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen
 
jim1130 said:
For Believers:

Here is the Nicene Creed professed at Mass. I think that it has what you are looking for.

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfilment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen
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Amen. Thanks be to God.
 
jim1130 said:
For Believers:

Here is the Nicene Creed professed at Mass. I think that it has what you are looking for.
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Thanks, Jim. That’s one of the items I was going to post next.

Some things to consider about OSAS belief systems:
  1. If you can’t do anything to lose your salvation, then do you need to repent of sins committed after you’ve received Jesus as your ‘personal Lord and Savior?’
  2. In OSAS theology, what is meant by "perseverence of the saints?’
  3. How do you explain James 2:14-26?
Also, believers, I don’t think you need to read James Akin’s book to understand salvation, but it gives a good compare-and-contrast of Catholic and various non-Catholic points of view on the subject.
 
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djrakowski:
Thanks, Jim. That’s one of the items I was going to post next.

Some things to consider about OSAS belief systems:
  1. If you can’t do anything to lose your salvation, then do you need to repent of sins committed after you’ve received Jesus as your ‘personal Lord and Savior?’
  2. In OSAS theology, what is meant by "perseverence of the saints?’
  3. How do you explain James 2:14-26?
Also, believers, I don’t think you need to read James Akin’s book to understand salvation, but it gives a good compare-and-contrast of Catholic and various non-Catholic points of view on the subject.
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Yes…let’s look at James 2:14-26 shall we:

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? 15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:

16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? 17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 **Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? **
 
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djrakowski:
Thanks, Jim. That’s one of the items I was going to post next.

Some things to consider about OSAS belief systems:
  1. If you can’t do anything to lose your salvation, then do you need to repent of sins committed after you’ve received Jesus as your ‘personal Lord and Savior?’
  2. In OSAS theology, what is meant by "perseverence of the saints?’
  3. How do you explain James 2:14-26?
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Of course there are different versions of this theology. The natural follow-on question is how do you handle the case of the person who renounces Christ and ceases to practice Christianity. You will get one of two answers I will call type 1 and 2:
  1. They are still Christian. Hmmm…ever hear of antinomianism?.
  2. They never were Christian. Here you can get very theological very quickly and I try not to go there. Now of course I think it is bad theology because it is not-apostolic and at best misleading. However, in defense it is not necessarily antinomian.
Now in answer to the questions:

(1) Most would say yes, although I did read one author that stated repentance is not a part of faith.

(2) If you are a saint you will persevere. This is type 2 above (those who don’t persevere never were saints),

(3) Different definitions of the terms faith and works. Imagine a Venn diagram. Under one definition works are a subset of faith (true faith has works). Under other definitions works and faith are separate entities. This also can get very theological very quickly.

For type 2, faith without works is not faith. Good question for type 1.
 
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mozart-250:
(2) If you are a saint you will persevere. This is type 2 above (those who don’t persevere never were saints),
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“Perservering until the end” means salvation is not a one-time event but an ongoing process until death.

By the way, I like your name. Good to see you have been inspired in some way by a Catholic. 👍

www.socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/01/happy-birthday-to-mozart-250-today.html

Pope Benedict XVI is known for his love of Mozart’s music as well.
 
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mozart-250:
Of course there are different versions of this theology. The natural follow-on question is how do you handle the case of the person who renounces Christ and ceases to practice Christianity. You will get one of two answers I will call type 1 and 2:
  1. They are still Christian. Hmmm…ever hear of antinomianism?.
  2. They never were Christian. Here you can get very theological very quickly and I try not to go there. Now of course I think it is bad theology because it is not-apostolic and at best misleading. However, in defense it is not necessarily antinomian.
Now in answer to the questions:

(1) Most would say yes, although I did read one author that stated repentance is not a part of faith.

(2) If you are a saint you will persevere. This is type 2 above (those who don’t persevere never were saints),

(3) Different definitions of the terms faith and works. Imagine a Venn diagram. Under one definition works are a subset of faith (true faith has works). Under other definitions works and faith are separate entities. This also can get very theological very quickly.

For type 2, faith without works is not faith. Good question for type 1.
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Excellent answers, I think!

It bears asking, though, what is meant by perseverence for someone who thinks it was all settled at the moment of ‘receiving Christ as my personal Lord and Savior?’ If salvation can’t be lost no matter what, then what good is it to persevere? If a ‘saved’ person doesn’t persevere, then was he not really saved?

I can say from personal experience that OSAS led my wife to frequently question whether she was truly saved. As evangelicals, we were told, week after week, that a ‘saved’ person wouldn’t continue in sin, and yet we still found ourselves trying to beat the same old habits. So, one possible conclusion is that we were never saved at all, and were only fooling ourselves.
 
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