Why do so many in the pro-life movement want no punishment for women if abortion was illegal?

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Laws that criminalise victims are a terrible idea. And women driven to abortion are, more often than not, victims. Victims of a society that has created a world where pregnancy outside of a traditional ‘normal’ setting is unappreciated and unwelcome.

Prosecuting women won’t stop them from turning to abortion, but it will mean that if they are dying of sepsis after a back alley abortion they won’t go to hospital for treatment. It will also result in women who have miscarriages standing trial if it is suspected that they ‘fell down the stairs on purpose’.

Prosecute doctors, sure. They aren’t the ones feeling terrified and trapped. Prosecuting the women is a merciless cruel rabbit hole I don’t want to travel down.
 
BornInMarch said:
I just want a society that doesn’t hate children, that is all!

I am tired of hearing stories about children being left in ice or thrown in dumpsters or buried next to highways and either being found injured or being found dead. I am tired of seeing egotists argue in favor of legalized infanticide and being called “brave” for it. I am tired of parents having the ability to strangle their newborn children to death and afterwards live long full lives (in most countries the punishment for murdering a young baby is around a year in prison, far less than the punishment for murdering an adult). I am tired of seeing CPS being treated like boogeymen and I am tried of children being left with adults who rape and beat them because of “parental rights”. I am tired of seeing children euthanized for having disabilities, and I am tired of children dying of preventable diseases because of the wishes of their parents. I am tired of people being able to hurt those who are vulnerable and being able to easily get away with it or even be praised for it.

I just want a world where children are treated as valuable, not because of their parents but because of their own sake. I just want a world where hurting children is seen as being more evil than hurting an adult, and where the law actually reflects that.

I was born with a genetic disability, and while there has been some difficulty I am happy with my life and am glad to be alive. So imagine how it feels to hear people use disabilities as a justification for abortion, or to learn that the majority of children conceived with disabilities get aborted.
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I agree with what you have posted, but in your zeal for the unborn, you are headed down a path of controlling women with the promotion of what amounts to keeping childbearing women under lock and key. That’s not the way to get hearts and laws changed and it only hurts your intention of protecting the unborn. The harder you push for imprisonment of women that have sought an abortion or government control of women that are pregnant or of child-bearing age, the further the prochoice people will fight back. So please channel that zeal and energy to helping women in crisis pregnancy situations so they no longer feel they need to abort. That would go a long way instead of this proposed witch hunt.
 
LightBound said:
I agree with what you have posted, but in your zeal for the unborn, you are headed down a path of controlling women with the promotion of what amounts to keeping childbearing women under lock and key. That’s not the way to get hearts and laws changed and it only hurts your intention of protecting the unborn. The harder you push for imprisonment of women that have sought an abortion or government control of women that are pregnant or of child-bearing age, the further the prochoice people will fight back. So please channel that zeal and energy to helping women in crisis pregnancy situations so they no longer feel they need to abort. That would go a long way instead of this proposed witch hunt.
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So should I just be satisfied with less-but-not-no abortions? Should I just be fine with people being allowed to murder their children in cold blood without repercussion, people who often sleep just fine at night and go on to kill their children again and again? Should I just be fine with a world where a child can be murdered and his/her killer can walk free or (at worst) get a slap on the wrist? How is that fair, where is the justice in that?

I shouldn’t have to say this, but murdering your own child is not a right. Women are better off without access to legal abortions quite frankly. The ones who were aborted would be better off being born, the ones who regret getting abortions would be better off with their children still alive, and the ones who don’t regret getting abortion would be better off without blood on their hands to answer for on judgement day.

I can accept laws coming after the hearts have already been won. I can’t accept laws never coming at all.
 
If women as a group literally cannot be trusted not to murder their own children, then how can women be trusted to care for children or freely move about the world?

Perhaps we can have a massive government program to test all female children monthly beginning at age 10 or so. When they start to menstruate, they can be moved into massive incarceration facilities…women’s jails…where they can be ‘rented out’ or something to men who want sex or children. No need for their consent, the murdering bitches!

While they gestate, they can be chained to the wall or something, so they won’t try to injure themselves, untrustworthy as they are. The guards would be male of course.

And all childcare would be done by men after they have confiscated the babies from the murderous mothers.

sounds legit.

Seriously though, “The Handmaid’s Tale” should be required reading.
 
Questioner2 said:
If women as a group literally cannot be trusted not to murder their own children, then how can women be trusted to care for children or freely move about the world?

Perhaps we can have a massive government program to test all female children monthly beginning at age 10 or so. When they start to menstruate, they can be moved into massive incarceration facilities…women’s jails…where they can be ‘rented out’ or something to men who want sex or children. No need for their consent, the murdering bitches!

While they gestate, they can be chained to the wall or something, so they won’t try to injure themselves, untrustworthy as they are. The guards would be male of course.

And all childcare would be done by men after they have confiscated the babies from the murderous mothers.

sounds legit.

Seriously though, “The Handmaid’s Tale” should be required reading.
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Please stop presenting false dilemmas in which society can either A. allow women to murder their children with impunity or B. oppress women.

And stop pretending this is a case of the boy pulling the girl’s hair; men who perform abortion procedures and who aid abortions (by driving pregnant woman to the clinics, by pressuring women into unwanted abortions, by selling or paying for abortifacient birth control, etc) have just as much blood on their hands in my opinion. Additionally studies show that a lot of girls get aborted (in some countries they get aborted because of their gender) and that there are actually more pro-life women than men.

What you are doing is the equivalent of shouting that Simon Peter just wanted an excuse to be mean to ears.
 
BornInMarch said:
Please stop presenting false dilemmas in which society can either A. allow women to murder their children with impunity or B. oppress women.

And stop pretending this is a case of the boy pulling the girl’s hair; men who perform abortion procedures and who aid abortions (by driving pregnant woman to the clinics, by pressuring women into unwanted abortions, by selling or paying for abortifacient birth control, etc) have just as much blood on their hands in my opinion. Additionally studies show that a lot of girls get aborted (in some countries they get aborted because of their gender) and that there are actually more pro-life women than men.

What you are doing is the equivalent of shouting that Simon Peter just wanted an excuse to be mean to ears.
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I will stop BorninMarch. And I apologize for my post. It was inappropriate here at CAF.

I don’t want to trivialize or oversimplify a complex and painful topic.
 
BornInMarch said:
Women are better off without access to legal abortions quite frankly.
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I’m sorry to have to say it, but that isn’t your call to make. Taking a stance such as this is why pro-life advocates get shut down so quickly.

Peace,
B
 
Questioner2 said:
I will stop BorninMarch. And I apologize for my post. It was inappropriate here at CAF.

I don’t want to trivialize or oversimplify a complex and painful topic.
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Ok then. I won’t hold it against you.

As I already explained earlier it is personal for me because I come from a group that is frequently targeted for abortion.
 
Bridgit_Andrews said:
I’m sorry to have to say it, but that isn’t your call to make. Taking a stance such as this is why pro-life advocates get shut down so quickly.

Peace,
B
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I live in a representative democracy, so it actually IS my call to make (at least partially). Laws and representatives can be changed by enough amount of momentum; we might not have the critical mass necessary for that at the moment but I have hope that someday we will.
 
BornInMarch said:
I live in a representative democracy, so it actually IS my call to make (at least partially). Laws and representatives can be changed by enough amount of momentum; we might not have the critical mass necessary for that at the moment but I have hope that someday we will.
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You need to let this fixation of punishing post-abortive women go. Instead, focus your passion on helping women in crisis pregnancies. Whatever this genetic disability you have, there is going to be a support group or resource clearinghouse for those who have it and for women whose prenatal testing diagnosis shows they are carrying a child that has it. Go reach out to them and show them that the disability isn’t as limiting as they think (you are obviously an intelligent individual that can post on here, so prove that it’s not as bad as they may have been led to believe). Posting things about wanting post-abortive women imprisoned does the prolife effort NO GOOD and actually does it great harm. You said this fight is personal for you, so go make it personal for someone in need. Go be the help the mother carrying an unborn child with your particular genetic disability needs…or be the help any women in a crisis pregnancy needs.
 
Bridgit_Andrews said:
I’m sorry to have to say it, but that isn’t your call to make. Taking a stance such as this is why pro-life advocates get shut down so quickly.

Peace,
B
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How it not ours to make? God said murder is wrong; murder is wrong. Nine humans cannot change that.
Is it not the duty of every Catholic (I am Orthodox, not catholic) to create political conditions favorable to comform the government to the will of the church on moral matters? It worked in Ireland (sort of).
 
steve93 said:
How it not ours to make? God said murder is wrong; murder is wrong. Nine humans cannot change that.
Is it not the duty of every Catholic (I am Orthodox, not catholic) to create political conditions favorable to comform the government to the will of the church on moral matters? It worked in Ireland (sort of).
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It worked even better in Argentina. Also from what I’ve gathered the Orthodox Church also opposes Abortion.

orthodoxchristian.info/pages/abortion2.htm
 
I was merely stating that abortion should be considered murder and hense a crime. I was not saying that the government should take an orwellian view of the citizens as regards border travel any more the the existence of terrorism or pornography as crimes should ligitimize all-powerfull, unlimited governmental intrussion/ spying, etc.
 
steve93 said:
I was merely stating that abortion should be considered murder and hense a crime. I was not saying that the government should take an orwellian view of the citizens as regards border travel any more the the existence of terrorism or pornography as crimes should ligitimize all-powerfull, unlimited governmental intrussion/ spying, etc.
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So for the sake of consistency, if abortion was a crime of murder how is it supposed to be punished?

Throw women in jail? The death penalty?

Also as Jharek pointed out, what about the fathers? It takes two to make a baby after all.
 
I doubt that those who are against abortion will argue against abortion providers being punished. I think it is a given that abortion providers will be punished and everyone on this forum will agree with this.

It is a point of contention however on how the women will be punished or if they are to be punished at all.

As for the man involved, well it depends on a number of factors.
 
I merely mentioned the Republic as a case of the society not taking the killing of innocents completely in denial and lying down. Not to suggest that it was/ is some sort of moral utopia.
 
Ireland not withstanding, abortion remains a crime in South American Catholic countries. But for some reason we don’t hear reports of riots in the streets there, if there are any. Of course, praising south amer. will be seen by the leftist media as “fascism”. Never mind that the actual fascists had no problem killing fetuses, or adult retarded/deformed people for that matter, even of their own “race”.
 
Phillipines- 6 mo to 6 years
Ireland- < 14 years
Brazil- 1-3 years
Chile- 3-5 years
Seems rather light for killing another human being. Especially compared to the various “war on _” programs.

Regarding the power question-Why could an infant in the womb not be declared a citizen for the purpose of extending authority to punish killing it while outside the borders?
 
Merely saying the fact that smoking a certain plant would be punished more severly that killing a person is rather obsurd.
 
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