Why do we as Catholics believe that life begins at conception?

[guanophore]

Whether you agree or not, I (along with many others) do not consider the fetus a child or a human being - we have already been over this. The persecution of women who seek termination will have to answered for on the Day of Judgment. The fact that the fetus is also affected will not absolve the perpetrators of their actions - in any case this is not up to me (or up to you), so arguing with me about it will not change this.

I find it ironic that I read so many stubborn and small minded posts from a person who chose “openmind” as a username.

Why are you on CAF? This is a discussion forum, yet you don’t seem to want to discuss. You refuse to answer anyone’s questions, you post drivel that you cannot support with any documentation, and every post you repeat your misguided ideas as if repeating them would make faithful Catholics fall into a lie. What need are you getting met by being on this thread?

Those whose job it is to enforce laws can not be held responsible for merely doing their job (even though the laws may be unjust). As I said before, a few years after the Christ returns, abortion will be legal and freely available in all countries. Then we won't have this problem.

Catholics cannot participate in other people’s sins, so when the law of the land is evil, we must resist. This attitude reminds me of the German citizens that lived near the concentration camps and smelled the bodies burning every day, and looked the other way.

You must have a very different idea of “the Christ” than we do, since we look to His return on the Last Day, at which time judgment will occur. At no time, now or later, will “the Christ” who founded a Church on earth support the murder of the innocent. But you are right, we won’t have the problem then that we do now.

 

[Rau]

…Those whose job it is to enforce laws can not be held responsible for merely doing their job (even though the laws may be unjust).

What an extraordinary statement - to claim that one’s job duties have primacy over what is moral! * Or put another way - a job provides an excuse to act immorally.

The proper thing to do when one finds that the duties of a job require one to act immorally is to resign and seek an alternative job.*

 

[petra22]

Whether you agree or not, I (along with many others) do not consider the fetus a child or a human being - we have already been over this. The persecution of women who seek termination will have to answered for on the Day of Judgment. The fact that the fetus is also affected will not absolve the perpetrators of their actions - in any case this is not up to me (or up to you), so arguing with me about it will not change this.

Those whose job it is to enforce laws can not be held responsible for merely doing their job (even though the laws may be unjust). As I said before, a few years after the Christ returns, abortion will be legal and freely available in all countries. Then we won’t have this problem.

I’m trying to listen to learn where you are getting these ideas that women’s lives will be hurt by allowing nature to take its course and taking responsibility for their actions. Isn’t the problem now that people are allowed to make excuses for bad behavior? Well, maybe the women didn’t have bad behavior on purpose but were convinced to perform in a certain way due to outside pressure? Listen to the songs and watch the movies. The guy croons that he loves her and he will stay beside her always and no matter what happens he will be there for her…(she doesn’t know that he is just trying to do what guys like to do which is their nature that society tells them they don’t have to control.) Most girls are so nieve. Over and over they fall for the same story. Maybe it will be different this time. Maybe HE will be different… and if she gets “caught” oh that’s ok. It’s not really a life. Consider it a wart or a cancer that needs to be removed. If we keep telling young women this it is going to lead to the end of humans. Don’t you think the greater hurt is the genders LYING to one another to get what they want. And I know girls do lie to the boys too sometimes but the boys aren’t in danger of bearing the result of their actions. The girl is. It is WRONG to lie to the girls and tell them it’s nothing. You are trying to alleviate this “hurt” for women but what about the 1000s of others that life presents? You can’t take away all the hurts and this one you want to take away involves the life of another even though you don’t call it that…

 

[estesbob]

What an extraordinary statement - to claim that one’s job duties have primacy over what is moral! * Or put another way - a job provides an excuse to act immorally.

The proper thing to do when one finds that the duties of a job require one to act immorally is to resign and seek an alternative job.*

That argument didn’t work at Nuremberg

 

[guanophore]

That argument didn’t work at Nuremberg

Indeed not, and it will not work for any faithful Christian.

" If, however, a man knows what it is right to do and yet does not do it, he commits a sin."James 4:17

 

[Ender]

I (along with many others) do not consider the fetus a child or a human being

More to the point, we have seen in the past what happens when one group of people are considered less than human by a more powerful group. It’s not as if we’re unfamiliar with slavery and genocide practiced against others. The wonder is that the same argument that excused those practices is still employed for this new target group.

The persecution of women who seek termination will have to answered for on the Day of Judgment.

Persecution would be wrong if it was being practiced, but the word is completely inapplicable in this instance (what is occurring is execution, not persecution). Not only is it not wrong to point out to the woman the seriousness of her sin, it would be a sin to do otherwise. We ourselves become complicit when we fail to speak up.

The fact that the fetus is also affected will not absolve the perpetrators of their actions - in any case this is not up to me (or up to you), so arguing with me about it will not change this.

When did it become wrong to oppose sin?

As I said before, a few years after the Christ returns, abortion will be legal and freely available in all countries.

I have seen any number of statements I felt were off base, but I have never encountered a claim so transparently and breathtakingly wrong as this one. Abortion has been condemned by the church for her entire existence. If she has been wrong on so serious a matter for so long then she would not be what she claims to be…and neither would Christ.

Ender

 

[guanophore]

When did it become wrong to oppose sin?
I have seen any number of statements I felt were off base, but I have never encountered a claim so transparently and breathtakingly wrong as this one.

Let us all stop and offer a prayer for openmind77 and all those whose minds have been taken captive by this culture of death in which we live.

Father in heaven, we thank you for the precious gift of human life to our first parents, Adam and Eve, and to every human being down the centuries till today.

In your Divine Providence, you have made us your collaborators in the transmission of this gift and in preserving it from the moment it is conceived till it is transformed into life eternal.

We beg pardon for those who suffocate human life in unborn babies, who eliminate it violently with enmity and hatred, or who suppress it prematurely in the elderly and the terminally ill.

We pray for the healing of the consciences of those who support this horrible atrocity, that their eyes may be opened, and their hearts returned to the Author of Life.

Grant us so to cherish human life that we shall always respect and defend it, especially within the sacred shrine of the family where it is born and nurtured. We promise to use the gift of life with gratitude and care at all times and in every place.

We make this prayer to You, our loving Father, through the intercession of Mary, Mother of Life, in the Holy Spirit, Lord and Giver of Life, and the name of Jesus Christ, your Son, who came that we may have life in abundance. Amen

 

[openmind77]

…I suppose this is consistent with a view that morality is whatever the majority decide…

Actually I did not say that morality is decided by the majority, I just said the law is decided by a majority.

I explained why termination of a fetus is morally ok - since it is not a human being because it does not have a human soul. Then I pointed out that the majority agrees with me that a fetus is not a human being (for reasons which may be different than mine). I just pointed that out, so that you realize that my position is not that outlandish or extraordinary.

However my argument for why abortion is morally OK stands by itself, regardless whether a majority agrees or not.

 

[davidv]

Actually I did not say that morality is decided by the majority, I just said the law is decided by a majority.

I explained why termination of a fetus is morally ok - since it is not a human being because it does not have a human soul. Then I pointed out that the majority agrees with me that a fetus is not a human being (for reasons which may be different than mine). I just pointed that out, so that you realize that my position is not that outlandish or extraordinary.

However my argument for why abortion is morally OK stands by itself, regardless whether a majority agrees or not.

Your argument is irrational. It is not supported by science, nor philosophy. It is purely an argument from emotion.

A fetus has being (it exists)
A fetus in a human women is human.
Therefore: A fetus is a human being.

 

[guanophore]

Actually I did not say that morality is decided by the majority, I just said the law is decided by a majority.

I explained why termination of a fetus is morally ok - since it is not a human being because it does not have a human soul.

You are moving the bar, openmind77. You have already asserted that the fetus is not a human being because the “majority” of countries believe this (without a shred of evidence or sources). Then you said it is morally ok for people to participate in abortion because it is the law of the land, and therefore, they are not culpable for their actions.

Then I pointed out that the majority agrees with me that a fetus is not a human being (for reasons which may be different than mine). I just pointed that out, so that you realize that my position is not that outlandish or extraordinary.

it is definitely outlandish and extraordinary, especially due to the fact that you can provide no evidence or sources to support yourself. It amounts to a very shallow and antiscientific opinion.

 However my argument for why abortion is morally OK stands by itself, regardless whether a majority agrees or not.

Not only can it not stand, but it will never get up off it’s butt.

The conclusion of your argument is that abortion is ok because the majority says it is legal.

 

[graciew]

Actually I did not say that morality is decided by the majority, I just said the law is decided by a majority.

I explained why termination of a fetus is morally ok - since it is not a human being because it does not have a human soul. Then I pointed out that the majority agrees with me that a fetus is not a human being (for reasons which may be different than mine). I just pointed that out, so that you realize that my position is not that outlandish or extraordinary.

However my argument for why abortion is morally OK stands by itself, regardless whether a majority agrees or not.

To say that a fetus is not a human being becomes an excuse to kill.
All this nonsense of whether they have souls when they have legs, arms ,a heart…
Tell me, even a human corpse is not shredded to pieces out of love and respect, how can anyone deny that a human fetus ( cause that is how it is referred to, human…) is not human?
Did you know that such was an explanation for slavery and black persons? Or indigenous? They did not have souls…
Watch the vídeos, if you have a stomach, see how they manipulate little legs or arms and then let us know that they are ,what? Dolphins?
Please…it is obvious literally that they are human…
Zero excuse for that. Zero.
We can understand a whole lot of issues with moms, but not that about their being…things or lumps or whatever delusional name a baby is given. It is enough,way more than enough.

 

[Rau]

Actually I did not say that morality is decided by the majority, I just said the law is decided by a majority.

You’ve sought to bolster your position on many occasions by asserting that the majority agree with you.

I explained why termination of a fetus is morally ok - since it is not a human being because it does not have a human soul.

You in fact admitted you did not know when ensoulment occurs. So by your own logic (that ensoulument is the relevant) factor) you admit that its OK to take a risk and abort, without certainty about the status of the human offspring. You can assert that ensoulment happens just as the umbilical cord is cut, or at some other moment near birth, but it is a mere assertion (presumably made for the purposes of justifying abortion) - having no basis at all.

Then I pointed out that the majority agrees with me that a fetus is not a human being (for reasons which may be different than mine). I just pointed that out, so that you realize that my position is not that outlandish or extraordinary.

I don’t know what proportion believe they are aborting a non-human being (another assertion from you without any basis?), but at least we agree that the majority opinion carries no weight in determining what is moral.

 

[graciew]

You’ve sought to bolster your position on many occasions by asserting that the majority agree with you.

You in fact admitted you did not know when ensoulment occurs. So by your own logic (that ensoulument is the relevant) factor) you admit that its OK to take a risk and abort, without certainty about the status of the human offspring. You can assert that ensoulment happens just as the umbilical cord is cut, or at some other moment near birth, but it is a mere assertion (presumably for the purposes of justifying abortion) - having no basis at all.

I don’t know what proportion believe they are aborting a non-human being, but at least we agree that the majority opinion carries no weight in determining what is moral.

What is the point of discussing what is moral if a baby is thought to be a…thing ?
If one cannot recognize what one can see with our own eyes how on earth can we get into what is " moral"?

 

[Rau]

What is the point of discussing what is moral if a baby is thought to be a…thing ?
If one cannot recognize what one can see with your iwn eyes how on earth can we get into what is " moral"?

It is a curious characteristic of this age that people are so willing to deny what is plain for their eyes to see.

 

[guanophore]

It is a curious characteristic of this age that people are so willing to deny what is plain for their eyes to see.

"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! 21Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight!…Isaiah 5:20

 

[graciew]

It is a curious characteristic of this age that people are so willing to deny what is plain for their eyes to see.

But Rau…then what is needed is help to deal with denial or whatever…
This is not a philosophical issue here, it is plain sight…

 

[Rau]

But Rau…then what is needed is help to deal with denial or whatever…
This is not anphilosophical issue here, it is plain sight…

What do you propose?

 

[guanophore]

But Rau…then what is needed is help to deal with denial or whatever…
This is not a philosophical issue here, it is plain sight…

Only prayer can break through this level of blindness.

Oh Lord we pray for all those in the community who support, urge, and rally for abortion – especially for those profess faith in Christ. We ask that the Holy Spirit and the Blessed Theotokos would move them in such a way, that they would realize the great detriment of the “culture of death” that they are promoting. Deliver them all from slavery to this culture of death and show them the infinite value of every human being You have created.

 

[graciew]

What do you propose?

It is enough for me.
What I saw in the PP vídeos were little legs and arms being moved about on a tray. And talking about buying and selling.
That was my limit.
Nothing to say about you,Rau. It was my own powerlessness.
There would be something out of touch with reality if I said I saw a. …thing.
I do not have your patience.

 

[guanophore]

It is enough for me.
What I saw in the PP vídeos were little legs and arms being moved about on a tray. And talking about buying and selling.
That was my limit.
Nothing to say about you,Rau. It was my own powerlessness.
There would be something out of touch with reality if I said I saw a. …thing.
I do not have your patience.

Micosil did a great job of documenting the science in post 232.

openmind77 has rejected philosophy, science, and the revelation of God in Christ in order to cling to his erroneous position.

There is a deep and dark Spirit at work in those who reject the humanity of the fetus.

“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 6:44

We must fast and pray fervently that such persons be delivered and their blindness healed so that they can see what is before them. It is as if there are scales over their eyes.