Why do we as Catholics believe that life begins at conception?

[openmind77]

This is a very interesting comment.

Who determines what is a human “right” and on what basis is this done?

A right to control ones own body seems so basic that I am not sure a determination needs to be made.

Did you think you had a right to do something to somebody else’s body? Does anybody else have a right to do things to your body?

Nobody should be able to force a woman to carry something inside her body against her will. Whoever persecutes an unfortunate pregnant woman by forcing her to do so, making her life harder, making her suffer, will have to answer for their actions on Judgment Day before the Christ.

 

[clem456]

A right to control ones own body seems so basic that I am not sure a determination needs to be made.

Do you have the right to kill a disabled child? A child who requires your bodily commitment all day long?

You are going to say no, because that child is human being.
So it comes down to your insistence that you know when a person is human against what science tells us.

 

[Peccavi]

If not at conception how else is life created ? All life is sacred - a gift from God. No-one for any reason has the right to take a life NOTE for any reason
The Lord gives Life
The Lord alone can take it away
Blessed by God forever

 

[estesbob]

It seems that openmind has a closed mind on the subject. Facts are of no avail. Embryology is useless. Subjectivism rules. The child in the womb is defenseless, to be killed at will.

Did you ever read “The Hobbit”? Remember the characters that turned to stone when the sun came up? Nouth said.

 

[guanophore]

Sure God gave us the bodies. He also gave the pregnant woman her body not to anyone else. She has the sole right to her own body not anyone else. So yes, God gave her the body and the sole right over it, not any government or any group of people.

You could say God owns her body, but does not give anyone else the right to dictate what she does with her body.,

You are right, openmind, and as Christians we do believe that twice over. Not only did God create our bodies, but He died on the cross to purchase our freedom from sin, so we are to honor Him with our bodies. Honoring God does not happen with the death of the innocent.

19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.I Cor. 6;20

And for those who are married, including those who behave as they are married when they are not, the two become one flesh, so who is in her body belongs as much to her partner as to her.

…3The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.… 1 Corinthians 7:4

It is probably difficult for a non-Christian to understand this concept.

 

[Brendan]

You could say God owns her body, but does not give anyone else the right to dictate what she does with her body. ,

When did God give that right? When and under what circumstances was it revealed?

God gave woman the gift of children. And places that child within her body. As yes, as others have shown the Bible describes them as children…

So what rights does God give the child, the child He Himself placed with her body. The child too has a body, a body that, as you stated, God owns.

 

[openmind77]

When did God give that right? When and under what circumstances was it revealed?

God gave woman the gift of children. And places that child within her body. As yes, as others have shown the Bible describes them as children…

So what rights does God give the child, the child He Himself placed with her body. The child too has a body, a body that, as you stated, God owns.

God definitely did not give anybody else the right to the woman’s body. So she is the only one (besides God) who has the right to control her body.

As I said before I (along with the majority of the world ) do not believe the fetus is a human being.

The Bible says many things I don’t agree with, I only consider the words of Jesus as unquestionable truth. The rest is debatable.

God will give the fetus all the rights as a human being after its birth. As long as it is inside the mother, she has control and speaks for both of them.

There is no point in going in circles with the same thing - I don’t believe (along with most the world) that the fetus is a human being. There is no way you will prove otherwise. Why not just say that you will wait till the Christ comes to prove how correct you are? I will believe anything he says.

But always consider the possibility that you maybe wrong. And as I said before people who hurt anyone including the pregnant woman by making her life worse, will answer for it on Judgment Day.

 

[Micosil]

As I said before I (along with the majority of the world ) do not believe the fetus is a human being.

There is no point in going in circles with the same thing - I don’t believe (along with most the world) that the fetus is a human being.

I don’t understand why you keep rejecting the scientific evidence. It’s been presented in this thread already.

 

[openmind77]

I don’t understand why you keep rejecting the scientific evidence. It’s been presented in this thread already.

Scientists are the people who fertilize human eggs in a petri dish and then flush them if they are not happy with the results. And you claim the scientists believe that the fertilized eggs are human beings? Where did you find these scientists - on Fox news?

 

[Rau]

I don’t understand why you keep rejecting the scientific evidence. It’s been presented in this thread already.

He switches arguments routinely from among these:

1. Woman can do anything to anyone or thing inside her body.
2. Soul does not come along till well after conception (perhaps not till birth) and prior to that, the human life is not a human being;
3. Because timing of ensoulment not clear - the woman is the only one to “make the call” - (ie. to take the risk with her offspring’s life), because her “right” under point 1 prevails anyway.

Note: Pro-abortion Atheists would need to stick with Point 1.

 

[openmind77]

He switches arguments routinely from among these:

1. Woman can do anything to anyone or thing inside her body.
2. Soul does not come along till well after conception (perhaps not till birth) and prior to that, the human life is not a human being;
3. Because timing of ensoulment not clear - the woman is the only one to “make the call” - (ie. to take the risk with her offspring’s life), because her “right” under point 1 prevails anyway.

Note: Pro-abortion Atheists would need to stick with Point 1.

Thanks Mr Rau. You have understood my position well.

Please don’t forget the part that everything will surely be resolved when the Christ Returns - and that will happen very soon. Also at that same time, those who persecute poor, pregnant women will answer for their actions.

 

[Brendan]

When the Christ returns he will no doubt explain this far more clearly,…

As I said before I (along with the majority of the world ) do not believe the fetus is a human being.

You seem a little confused. You look for truth to what the majority of the world believes.

The majority of the world do NOT believe Christ is returning AT ALL.

So which one is true, what the majority believes, or that Christ will return?

If the majority is wrong, why should we give them any authority on ensoulment?

 

[openmind77]

You seem a little confused. You look for truth to what the majority of the world believes.

The majority of the world do NOT believe Christ is returning AT ALL.

So which one is true, what the majority believes, or that Christ will return?

If the majority is wrong, why should we give them any authority on ensoulment?

Believing the Christ will Return falls in different category of beliefs - that is a matter of faith. Not believing in that does not mean the majority is wrong, it just means they do not have faith in the Return of the Christ.

The majority’s belief about the fetus is not necessarily based on faith, it may be for different reasons including scientific ones, or timing of ensoulment (like mine) etc.

You are free to believe what you want, but if people try to impose their beliefs on others or make poor women suffer more than they already are, they will have to answer to the Christ for their actions.

 

[petra22]

Those people who hurt unfortunate women, deny them their rights, make life harder or impossible for these women who have difficult choices to make,

You keep saying “unfortunate women”… what makes an unfortunate woman??? How did she get to be unfortunate?

 

[petra22]

1. • the woman is the only one to “make the call” - (ie. to take the risk with her offspring’s life), ]

What did you call the thing growing inside the pregnant woman??? her offspring’s LIFE??? what is her offspring? could it be a human?

I know your answer. That depends on if you think a pregnant woman is a human…?

 

[openmind77]

You keep saying “unfortunate women”… what makes an unfortunate woman??? How did she get to be unfortunate?

Some women are victims of rape or incest. Others have husbands who force themselves on the women without contraception or using NFP etc. In these cases they are pretty blameless, so they are indeed unfortunate.

In other cases, in is true that they may have willingly participated in intercourse, but who are we to pass judgment and assign blame? Especially, in the case of unmarried teenagers, their entire life, education etc may be at stake. In all these cases the women are unfortunate, even if it is their own fault. Of course if the women are rich or at least have their own money, they have a lots of choices, it is the poor women who have no choice.

There are no rewards in heaven for persecuting poor unfortunate women and making their lives harder.

 

[Brendan]

Believing the Christ will Return falls in different category of beliefs - that is a matter of faith. Not believing in that does not mean the majority is wrong, it just means they do not have faith in the Return of the Christ.

The majority’s belief about the fetus is not necessarily based on faith, it may be for different reasons including scientific ones, or timing of ensoulment (like mine) etc.

Interesting premise that you have there. That the return of Christ is a reality, but an element of Faith, but the existence of the soul at all is somehow NOT a matter of faith.

If it is not a matter of faith, what is it then, is a matter of science?

You are free to believe what you want, but if people try to impose their beliefs on others or make poor women suffer more than they already are, they will have to answer to the Christ for their actions.

Is the imposition of belief your problem? There are quite a large number of people in the world still engages in the slave trade, both is the sale and purchase of slaves.

Is it wrong to impose our beliefs in that matter on them. Or is the imposition of belief on others not a problem?

 

[openmind77]

I…
Is the imposition of belief your problem? There are quite a large number of people in the world still engages in the slave trade, both is the sale and purchase of slaves.

Is it wrong to impose our beliefs in that matter on them. Or is the imposition of belief on others not a problem?

Slavery is against the law in almost all countries. The legal system and law enforcement will take of them. I never said we should not follow the law. I don’t think you should become a vigilante, if that was your question.

 

[Rau]

Rau;13763920:

1. • the woman is the only one to “make the call” - (ie. to take the risk with her offspring’s life), ]

What did you call the thing growing inside the pregnant woman??? her offspring’s LIFE??? what is her offspring? could it be a human?

I know your answer. That depends on if you think a pregnant woman is a human…?

You need to direct your question to the person who makes these assertions and arguments, which is not me, but “Openmind77”. He is the one who reluctantly acknowledges there is life, but confidently asserts that that life does not constitute a “human being”.

 

[Brendan]

Slavery is against the law in almost all countries. The legal system and law enforcement will take of them. I never said we should not follow the law. I don’t think you should become a vigilante, if that was your question.

The question was not about was legal, it was about forcing beliefs. As we all agree, God’s will is not dependant on what it legal under human law.

But then again, these laws against slavery are enforcements of one belief on what constitutes human vs what constitutes being property.

Which IS rather similar to your arguments, is it not.

These laws against slavery are thus very much akin to laws against abortion. They carry the presumption that the ones being protected are actually human, even in the face of those who believe otherwise.

Your position is thus very telling.