Why do we as Catholics believe that life begins at conception?

[guanophore]

You personally can choose to believe what you want - nobody is asking you to do anything against your beliefs, just don’t impose your beliefs on others.

Hmmm. So, I guess if I believe it is wrong to pour gasoline on a woman and set her in fire, I should not impose that on others?

Pehraps I should not complain when extremitsts fly planes into buildings, either, because I might be pushing my beliefs on othes?

I beleive I should be able to get to work in the fastest most efficient way, so why should I hve to pay attention to ligths, stop signs, school zones and speed signs?

 

[Micosil]

It depends on how you define a human being - I define a human being as a person who has a human body plus a human soul.

There are no sources that can verify the presence of a soul - only someone like the Christ can say whether the fetus has a human soul. So I suggest you wait for him to verify instead of reading these sources.

Until such a verification by the Christ, the woman has a right to request that the fetus inside her body be removed. Anyone who denies the woman her right or makes her life miserable/harder will have to answer for their actions to the Christ.

You seem to think a “soul” is something purely supernatural and spiritual; this isn’t necessarily the case.

All living creatures, plants, animals and humans, have a soul. The soul is the animating principle of life, it is what makes a living creature “more” than the mere sum of its parts. Now, theologically speaking, what is peculiar about a human is that we have a rational soul that is immortal and is created in the image and likeness of God.

So even if you approach this issue from a more secular point of view, and leave immortal souls, image and likeness of God, etc. out of the picture, you could in principle still speak of a soul that is acceptable to an agnostic view of the world – and that’s how you could make your definition of a human being (“a person who has a human body plus a human soul”) compatible with a more secular view of things without invoking any theology or religion.

 

[Brendan]

It depends on how you define a human being - I define a human being as a person who has a human body plus a human soul. t.

Since personal definitions of what constitutes a human being seem important to you.

If someone defined a human being as a human body who has passed puberty, would you object to laws against infanticide? Should such a person be legally able to kill a toddler? Or a 10 year old?

Or would you inforce your definition of ‘human’ on others?

 

[openmind77]

Since personal definitions of what constitutes a human being seem important to you.

If someone defined a human being as a human body who has passed puberty, would you object to laws against infanticide? Should such a person be legally able to kill a toddler? Or a 10 year old?

Or would you inforce your definition of ‘human’ on others?

I have not met or heard of anyone who defines a human being in such a way. (Unless you are that one)

In a democracy it is always the majority opinion that will usually define the law of the land (and in some cases precedent).

But the Christ will not take legality into account when he judges people. Those people who hurt unfortunate women, deny them their rights, make life harder or impossible for these women who have difficult choices to make, just because of their personal beliefs, those people will have to answer for their actions. That time of Judgment is approaching fast

 

[openmind77]

… Now, theologically speaking, what is peculiar about a human is that we have a rational soul that is immortal and is created in the image and likeness of God. …

Precisely and a fetus does not acquire such a human soul until much later in its development. What keeps the fetus alive until then is the pregnant woman’s soul or life force, the fetus just does not have a human soul of its own until probably late in the third trimester. Of course only someone like the Christ can tell exactly when this happens. And he will be returning soon and will tell us then, until then keep your personal morality to yourself.

 

[mary_bobo]

Separate distinct human life is present from the moment of conception. The only people who dispute that are those looking for an excuse to justify killing the child

There are always ways to justify what you want to do if you try hard enough.

 

[guanophore]

But the Christ will not take legality into account when he judges people. Those people who hurt unfortunate women, deny them their rights, make life harder or impossible for these women who have difficult choices to make, just because of their personal beliefs, those people will have to answer for their actions. That time of Judgment is approaching fast

I agree. And a person who feels so strongly as you seem to feel on this subject will no doubt manage a housing program for women with unwanted and unplanned pregnancies, and spend every waking hour finding and acquiring suppor for them to give birth to their babies.

You will have a lot of support from the Catholic Church, and the Right to Life program will be happy tojoin with you in your blessed endeavor.

Precisely and a fetus does not acquire such a human soul until much later in its development. What keeps the fetus alive until then is the pregnant woman's  soul or life force, the fetus just does not have a human soul of its own until probably late in the third trimester.

LOL.

This is the first time I have ever heard such an assertion… Do you have a source, or did you just make this up on the spot?

Of course only someone like the Christ can tell exactly when this happens. And he will be returning soon and will tell us then, until then keep your personal morality to yourself.

I guess that means you consider yourself “like the Christ”?

I agree, though, we don’t know precisely when the eternal soul is joined to the body, so it is safest to protect life from conception.

12Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You. 13For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. 14I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.…Psalm 139:13

Woe to the one who destroys that which God has fearfully and wonderfully made!

The Scriptures have made it clear that those who are in the womb are persons. Look at this prophesy about John the Baptist:

…14"You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. 16"And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God.…Luke 1:15

How can anyone risk destrying an innocent life that might even be filled with the Holy Spirit while still in the womb? You are so right, that such a one would have a lot to answer for to God.

…43"And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44"For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. 45"And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord."Luke 1:44

How is it that the “babe leapt for joy” if he was not yet a person? We have know way of knowing that he was not a person from the moment of conception. Why risk the wrath of God for killing the innocent?

 

[mary_bobo]

I thought I already explained this. A fetus is not a human being. So you are not ‘snuffing out’ a human life.

A human being is a person who has a human soul. The fetus does not acquire a human soul until much later. Definitely not at conception. Merely because you believe it has soul does not make it so.

That is your belief, but that does not make it so. If you are comfortable with that belief, so be it.

 

[Brendan]

I have not met or heard of anyone who defines a human being in such a way. (Unless you are that one)

In a democracy it is always the majority opinion that will usually define the law of the land (and in some cases precedent).

OK, but that that determine truth?
The majority of the world once believe that the Earth was flat.

But the Christ will not take legality into account when he judges people. Those people who hurt unfortunate women, deny them their rights,

Deny what ‘rights’? You already admitted that Christ does not take legality into his decision, so any ‘rights’ conferred by law are meaningless. The only rights that matter are ones conferred by Christ Himself.

make life harder or impossible for these women who have difficult choices to make, just because of their personal beliefs,

Would you make life harder for they hypothetical parent that I mentioned, the one about to kill their toddler? What ‘rights’ would you deny them? As you mentioned, what is ‘legal’ has no bearing on how Christ judges and action.

 

[Micosil]

Precisely and a fetus does not acquire such a human soul until much later in its development. What keeps the fetus alive until then is the pregnant woman’s soul or life force, the fetus just does not have a human soul of its own until probably late in the third trimester. Of course only someone like the Christ can tell exactly when this happens. And he will be returning soon and will tell us then, until then keep your personal morality to yourself.

The fetus derives nourishment from the mother because like any living being it needs energy to stay alive. Do you think an animal or plant’s “life source” is what keeps someone alive because they consume it???

This has nothing to do with morality. I copied and pasted from scientific sources, so no, why would I keep science away from people?

 

[Ender]

Holy scripture does not mention abortion - it only talks about killing of humans after birth.

There are any number of things not specifically found in scripture that are nonetheless accepted as true. The fact that the word abortion was not used hardly means that the procedure was not condemned. Any number of passages in the Bible make it clear that the same person exists before and after birth, and if it is obviously wrong to kill that person after birth it is equally wrong to kill him prior to birth.Mt 1:20 Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Ez 18:4 * Know that all lives are mine; the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is mine:*
There is no appeal to scripture to justify abortion. Luke used the same word for child (brephos) when referring to the unborn child (Lk 1:41) as well as those who have been born (Lk 18:15).

Ender

 

[guanophore]

Precisely and a fetus does not acquire such a human soul until much later in its development. What keeps the fetus alive until then is the pregnant woman’s soul or life force, the fetus just does not have a human soul of its own until probably late in the third trimester. Of course only someone like the Christ can tell exactly when this happens. And he will be returning soon and will tell us then, until then keep your personal morality to yourself.

…16But let that man be like the cities Which the LORD overthrew without relenting, And let him hear an outcry in the morning And a shout of alarm at noon; 17Because he did not kill me before birth, So that my mother would have been my grave, And her womb ever pregnant. 18Why did I ever come forth from the womb To look on trouble and sorrow, So that my days have been spent in shame? Jer. 20:17

Isn’t it curious that Jeremiah speaks about having his life (soul) before he was born? He speaks of death in the womb as being his “grave”. Who makes “graves” for those who have no soul?

 

[Ender]

I have not met or heard of anyone who defines a human being in such a way.

Your position is this: a human is not a human being unless he satisfies criterion X. In your case criterion X = ensoulment, an event you cannot define or even know has happened. Others have different criteria and it seems there are no compelling reasons to choose between yours and theirs once the decision is made that not all humans are in fact human beings. The criteria are in all cases arbitrary.

It is a fairly short step from saying not all humans are human beings to saying not all human beings should be accorded the same rights and considerations. It is certainly no less arbitrary. And there are people who are already making this argument.*In Chapter 4 we saw that the fact that a being is a human being, in the sense of a member of the species Homo sapiens, is not relevant to the wrongness of killing it; it is, rather, characteristics like rationality, autonomy, and self-consciousness that make a difference. Infants lack these characteristics. Killing them, therefore, cannot be equated with killing normal human beings, or any other self-conscious beings. This conclusion is not limited to infants who, because of irreversible intellectual disabilities, will never be rational, self-conscious beings. We saw in our discussion of abortion that the potential of a fetus to become a rational, self-conscious being cannot count against killing it at a stage when it lacks these characteristics - not, that is, unless we are also prepared to count the value of rational self-conscious life as a reason against contraception and celibacy. No infant - disabled or not - has as strong a claim to life as beings capable of seeing themselves as distinct entities, existing over time. *(Peter Singer, Practical Ethics, 2cd Ed.)
Your position is not as far from his as you might like to believe.

Ender

 

[davidv]

It depends on how you define a human being - I define a human being as a person who has a human body plus a human soul.

Why should this be the accepted definition? Seems like a question begging error. You do not get to set the definition so you get the answer you want.

hu·man be·ing.

NOUN

1.a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.

There are no sources that can verify the presence of a soul - only someone like the Christ can say whether the fetus has a human soul. So I suggest you wait for him to verify instead of reading these sources.

Until such a verification by the Christ, the woman has a right to request that the fetus inside her body be removed. Anyone who denies the woman her right or makes her life miserable/harder will have to answer for their actions to the Christ.

Whether you can see the soul or not does not matter. If the soul is the animating principle of life, and since the child in the womb is a separate human from his/her mother, the soul is present.

Who is going to answer for the murder of an innocent child?

 

[ynotzap]

It depends on how you define a human being - I define a human being as a person who has a human body plus a human soul.

There are no sources that can verify the presence of a soul - only someone like the Christ can say whether the fetus has a human soul. So I suggest you wait for him to verify instead of reading these sources.

Until such a verification by the Christ, the woman has a right to request that the fetus inside her body be removed. Anyone who denies the woman her right or makes her life miserable/harder will have to answer for their actions to the Christ.

What is the nature of the fetus found in a pregnant woman, is it an animal fetus, or a human fetus? We can tell by bringing it to it’s maturity. It is obvious that it is a human fetus, it is self evident. One does not develop into a human, one starts as a human with potential for development. Humans have animal like potentials, eg. the five senses, locomotion, and the fetus moves through these stages of development, not moving from animal nature to human nature (the error of evolution) but moving through the animal LIKE stages. One can not give what it doesn’t have, and that is rational intelligence which an animal never has. God utilizes these stages of development in the life of a human preparing the body to receive the spiritual soul. It is by rational intelligence that we prove that the soul of a human is spiritual. It is a FACT that if the human fetus is allowed to live, it will have rational intelligence The human fetus is programmed that way, with the inception of the program starting with conception. May I ask where did you get the idea that the human soul is placed in the body in probably the “trimester”

I am somewhat hesitant to give the following because some will find it a justifiable reason for aborting a child for a lack of understanding. And if one doesn’t have the Christian Catholic Faith they will not understand. The source of the information is taken from “Private Revelation” from the book called the “City of God”, approved by five Popes It is written by .Sister Mary of Jesus, superior of the Convent of the Immaculate Conception of the town of Agreda, of the providence of Burgos in Spain under obedience to the regular observance of Saint Francis. ( Continued in the next post)

 

[openmind77]

That is your belief, but that does not make it so. If you are comfortable with that belief, so be it.

Of course something does become true merely because I say so, Neither does it become true because all of you say so. However, a majority of the world’s population and countries do not consider that a fetus is a human being, just like I do. And the laws in those countries are designed with that belief. As you say, so be it.

As long as this is true, I think people should leave those poor women alone to make their own choice and not get in the way of them exercising their rights. Any such attempt to hurt or make life more difficult for them will have to be answered for when the Christ returns.

 

[Brendan]

Of course something does become true merely because I say so, Neither does it become true because all of you say so. However, a majority of the world’s population and countries do not consider that a fetus is a human being, just like I do. And the laws in those countries are designed with that belief. As you say, so be it.

And, by your own statement, Christ does not care about what it legal. So why even consider that.

As to the majority of the world not considering it to be a human being, which part do they deny, that it is human, or that it has being?

I think people should leave those poor women alone to make their own choice and not get in the way of them exercising their rights. .

I would still like to hear about these ‘rights’ that you speak of. Legal rights mean nothing to Jesus (per your own admission). So what ‘rights’ are you referring to? Where do these rights come from?

 

[ynotzap]

continuation from last post
One page 265 of the volume titled " The Coronation" the chapter XV, it speaks of the devils influence on preventing the child from being born, or being Baptized. It also speaks of the infusion of the spiritual soul into the human body. quote " If they (the devils) fear good results (from the birth of the child) they seek to hinder as much as possible the last generation or infusion of the soul, waylaying the mother with dangers or temptations to bring about an abortion before the creation of the soul, which is ordinarily delayed forty or eighty days. Also the demons take note of the particular as well as of the general natural causes and conditions of nature, which unite in bringing about the generation and the organization of the human body, the demons with their vast experience, judge as much as possible of the complexion or inclination of the one conceived and they are wont to lay out great plans for future action…

Among pagans and idolaters they are not solicitous, because among them damnation is in certain prospect.
St. Thomas Aquinas, treating of the psychology of the soul explains that all living things have souls, the conceptus has a life of its own, depending on the mothers blood for it’s nourishment, the mother does not cause life, but nourishes life. The fetus employs the same physiological forces that animate animals, even without a “rational soul” and the fetus is a “human” in the initial state of it’s existence. God alone creates and infuses the spiritual soul into the human body at the proper time. And God uses the natural causes to develop the human body. You can not separate this sequence of events at any point and say that the conceptus is not a human being, even if it is not fully mature, no more then you can say the the seed of an oak tree, is not an oak tree in its initial state of existence. This is the way God propagates the human race.

 

[openmind77]

There are any number of things not specifically found in scripture that are nonetheless accepted as true. The fact that the word abortion was not used hardly means that the procedure was not condemned. Any number of passages in the Bible make it clear that the same person exists before and after birth…

It is true that the Bible can not mention each offense specifically. But if abortion was such egregious a crime as you people seem to believe, than surely the Christ would have mentioned it?

Are you saying that the Christ did not know that abortion would become so prevalent just 2000 years later? Of course, he should be able to see into the future that far. I think he did not mention it because he did not think it was that important. As for other passages in the Bible - I only take the words of Jesus himself as authoritative beyond question. The other text is scripture but it is still debatable.

 

[openmind77]

And, by your own statement, Christ does not care about what it legal. So why even consider that.

As to the majority of the world not considering it to be a human being, which part do they deny, that it is human, or that it has being?

I would still like to hear about these ‘rights’ that you speak of. Legal rights mean nothing to Jesus (per your own admission). So what ‘rights’ are you referring to? Where do these rights come from?

I was not talking just about legality, the opinion of majority of the world agrees with my view - that opinion counts for a lot.They deny that terminating a fetus is the same as killing a human being - in other words that the fetus is not a human being. These rights are human rights - the right to control what is inside the woman’s own body. The right not be forced to carry a fetus in her own body.

My contention is that the Christ will agree with this view, and it is best for people not to assume that they know what is right and to try to force the poor women into something they don’t want.