Why do we as Catholics believe that life begins at conception?

[openmind77]

But the abortion teaching is of the highest standard of teaching. If teaching authority means anything, it applies here. If it does not apply here, then there is NO teaching authority, and if there is none, there is no basis to believe anything else in Scriptures, including miracles, which you chose to accept…

There is no need to discard all teachings just because one thing is incorrect or to use that as some kind of evidence that it must be correct - any truth should stand independently on its own merits - this one does not.

…whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Apparently this was a common phrase at that time. It just means giving someone authority, it does not guarantee correctness.

…
The teachings are correct for this and also Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. If there were incorrect teachings, the gates of hell would prevail.

Just a few errors in a long body of teachings does not invalidate everything and open the gates of hell.

Such arguments that no one can question one particular teaching, because if you do, everything else falls apart, are not valid arguments.

 

[adrift]

Apparently this was a common phrase at that time.

Common to who. Please provide proof of this statement.

It just means giving someone authority, it does not guarantee correctness.

Authority is given. Jesus gave the authority. What authority is being given?

Just a few errors in a long body of teachings does not invalidate everything and open the gates of hell.

Your opinion but an incorrect and poorly formed opinion. There is no error other than on your part.

]Such arguments that no one can question one particular teaching, because if you do, everything else falls apart, are not valid arguments.

Straw man statement. I did not state anything about questioning a teaching? this is a misstatement of what I wrote.

 

[Rau]

There is no need to discard all teachings just because one thing is incorrect or to use that as some kind of evidence that it must be correct - any truth should stand independently on its own merits - this one does not.

This one is taught infallibly. If not even this can stand, then Christ gave no authority to his Church. Nothing Christ is reported to have said has can be relied upon. Your references to Christ lose all weight.

Apparently this was a common phrase at that time. It just means giving someone authority, it does not guarantee correctness.

That is laughable. What is God given authority to teach under these conditions? It is worthless and meaningless.

Such arguments that no one can question one particular teaching, because if you do, everything else falls apart, are not valid arguments.

What falls apart is the claim to be able to teach authoritatively. For if that claim, based on Scripture, fails, then the reliability of Scripture falls apart.

 

[openmind77]

This one is taught infallibly. If not even this can stand, then Christ gave no authority to his Church. Nothing Christ is reported to have said has can be relied upon. Your references to Christ lose all weight.

That is laughable. What is God given authority to teach under these conditions? It is worthless and meaningless.

I don’t see how authority confers infallibility. A judge has the authority to sentence you, does not mean the sentence is correct every time.

What falls apart is the claim to be able to teach authoritatively. For if that claim, based on Scripture, fails, then the reliability of Scripture falls apart.

All human institutions are subject to error. Only when someone like the Christ speaks can we be sure it is truth beyond question. We should expect some errors in anything prepared or interpreted by humans - that does not make the whole thing questionable.

I think we will only be going in circles, if we keep debating this. It seems many people (Catholics as well as those of other religions like Islam) have convinced themselves that their own teachings are totally infallible. This means the Return of the Christ will be a difficult adjustment period for all religions. It will be good to be mentally prepared for changes in several long held beliefs - including regarding abortion.

 

[Brendan]

I don’t see how authority confers infallibility. A judge has the authority to sentence you, does not mean the sentence is correct every time.n.

"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven

Can falsehood exist in heaven?

 

[ynotzap]

I don’t see how authority confers infallibility. A judge has the authority to sentence you, does not mean the sentence is correct every time.

No human is infallible, and no one confers infallibility on another except the One Who is Infallible. And this is the position that the Catholic Church takes up as it’s own, because Jesus, God-man promised us that He would be with us until the end, and will give us His Spirit of Truth to guide us by conferring on St. Peter that gift of supernatural infallibility when teaching from the Chair on faith and morals. This is not your belief, so I can understand your position, nor can we convert you to our way of thinking, only Christ can. He is the only Savior of mankind, no one else, nor will any other religion take the place of Christianity, no matter how old it is.

OpenMind77:

All human institutions are subject to error. Only when someone like the Christ speaks can we be sure it is truth beyond question. We should expect some errors in anything prepared or interpreted by humans - that does not make the whole thing questionable.

This is the very point that we are making, Christ has spoken, and we hear what He said in Divine Revelation, that’s where we stand! As you keep saying, “We will be surprised when He reveals the truth to everyone” did you ever consider that “that someone may be you” Where do you get your guarantee that you know the truth regards faith and morals, from human fallible judgement?

OpenMind77:

I think we will only be going in circles, if we keep debating this. It seems many people (Catholics as well as those of other religions like Islam) have convinced themselves that their own teachings are totally infallible. This means the Return of the Christ will be a difficult adjustment period for all religions. It will be good to be mentally prepared for changes in several long held beliefs - including regarding abortion.

OpenMind77, no offense meant, but do you really think that you are open minded, are any of us infallible, only God can guide us infallibly, and that is our claim, that He is doing exactly that. If you can find a real chink in our armor, than we are totally misled, and we are all fools, and the ball is in your court to prove that. You asked a legitimate question, and we answered, and we stand by our answers.

 

[Porknpie]

I don’t believe that Jesus taught any errors or was inconsistent in anything that he said.

This is good Openmind. Do you believe he was a good teacher? Those 12 apostles he taught for 3 years, do you believe that they accurately taught what Jesus taught them, to their descendants?

As I said before, he never mentioned abortion (or contraception) - the beliefs regarding these are just misinterpretations by his followers which he will correct when he returns.

He doesn’t directly address abortion and contraception because it wasn’t an issue. The Jewish faith prior to him and Christianity after him found abortion and contraception abhorrent (including animal intestines for condoms)

“But he did mention clearly the criteria for judgment Matthew 25:35-40 - persecution of poor women is clearly something that will be judged under this criteria.”

That is your mis-understanding of Christianity. He will judge those who fail to love those who are most vulnerable and defenseless. And those allowing, fostering, the pulling arms, legs and heads off of his creation are on the top of the list.

"There have been no Sons of God like Jesus incarnated in the last 2000 years.

Why do you suppose this?

And how do you know that Jesus was a Sons of God?

Note Openmind the picture below of a 12 week old aborted baby. You really believe this is a “Something” not a “Someone”? I’m still completely confused where you get the infallible certainly as to when this someonehood begins. Perhaps you could clarify this.

 

[openmind77]

Can falsehood exist in heaven?

I did not say anything was false, merely a mistake in interpretation - similar to mistakes Supreme Court justices make in interpreting the constitution. When two judges disagree on a point of law, it does not mean one of them is speaking a falsehood.

This wiki article talks about the origin of this phrase: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_and_loosing . So this is similar to the authority that some Jewish leader’s had with reference to Jewish law, but no one claims that they were actually infallible even if they had authority.

When the Christ Returns, I am sure, he will state somethings that I currently do not follow or believe in - but I am ready to let him change my mind. But there will other things where he may not agree with current Church doctrine (abortion and contraception for instance) - we just have to wait and see what the real truth is regarding many such controversial issues.

 

[jilly4ski]

I did not say anything was false, merely a mistake in interpretation - similar to mistakes Supreme Court justices make in interpreting the constitution. When two judges disagree on a point of law, it does not mean one of them is speaking a falsehood.

This wiki article talks about the origin of this phrase: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_and_loosing . So this is similar to the authority that some Jewish leader’s had with reference to Jewish law, but no one claims that they were actually infallible even if they had authority.

When the Christ Returns, I am sure, he will state somethings that I currently do not follow or believe in - but I am ready to let him change my mind. But there will other things where he may not agree with current Church doctrine (abortion and contraception for instance) - we just have to wait and see what the real truth is regarding many such controversial issues.

LOL, just like the abolitionists should have waited until the return of Christ so we could just wait to find out what Christ thought about slavery, right? Otherwise, though abolitionists were making life difficult for those slave owners.

Of course, you will also notice that Christ taught us to speak up against wrong doing, not just wait until his return.

Also, Catholics believe that faith and reason are not separate, and since your position is equally illogical as it unobservable, any reasoning believer must object to your position on ensoulment.

 

[openmind77]

This is good Openmind. Do you believe he was a good teacher? Those 12 apostles he taught for 3 years, do you believe that they accurately taught what Jesus taught them, to their descendants?

The apostles also did not mention abortion

He doesn’t directly address abortion and contraception because it wasn’t an issue. The Jewish faith prior to him and Christianity after him found abortion and contraception abhorrent (including animal intestines for condoms)

Are you saying that the Christ did not know 2000 years ago that abortion would be such a major issue just 2000 years later?

In fact if you look at Matthew 25:35-40, you will notice that he knew exactly which issues would be critical at the time of his return (which is now) - the issues today are - healthcare for the poor, food for the poor, welcome to stranger/immigrants, huge prison population. I would say that he clearly foresaw the situation at the time of his return.

…
And how do you know that Jesus was a Son of God?..

This is my believe. Like I already said it is based on his teachings and his miracles

I’m still completely confused where you get the infallible certainly as to when this someonehood begins. Perhaps you could clarify this.

I never claimed infallibility. The time of personhood for the fetus is based on my belief (and that of many others). We just have to wait and see who the Christ agrees with. But whatever the resolution, those who have made others suffer, will have to answer for their actions

 

[Rau]

I did not say anything was false, merely a mistake in interpretation - similar to mistakes Supreme Court justices make in interpreting the constitution. When two judges disagree on a point of law, it does not mean one of them is speaking a falsehood.

The analogy has no value. The decisions of judges do not bind in heaven - they enjoy no heavenly endorsement - they are earthly judgements about earthly matters. The solemn teachings of the Church have God’s favour, they are endorsed in heaven (by God) - Jesus said so. Thus, they cannot be “mistakes”. The decisions of judges enjoy no such favour. They can be corrupt, wrong in law, or based on misleading or wrong evidence.

The teaching that abortion is wrong, and with no reference to what you call ensoulment, is as solemn as it gets. If this teaching can be discarded, then so can all. And if the Church’s solemn teachings cannot be relied upon, then Christ gave no teaching authority to the Church, meaning Scripture is unreliable and we should then have no reason to believe anything in Scripture.

 

[Rau]

…The time of personhood for the fetus is based on my belief (and that of many others). We just have to wait and see who the Christ agrees with. But whatever the resolution, those who have made others suffer, will have to answer for their actions

The Church’s teaching is that abortion is wrong, and that the precise timing of ensoulment is both unknown and irrelevant to the wrong of abortion.

Your “belief” is arbitrary and supported by nothing. You have no teaching authority. Your principal reason to oppose the Church’s teaching is that it would impede abortions!

 

[Porknpie]

The apostles also did not mention abortion

My question was:

Do you believe he was a good teacher? Those 12 apostles he taught for 3 years, do you believe that they accurately taught what Jesus taught them, to their descendants?

Are you saying that the Christ did not know 2000 years ago that abortion would be such a major issue just 2000 years later?

Of course he knew. He is outside of time. But to address the issues of the 21st century, he set up, and promised to lead his Church to all truth. Scripture refers to the Church as the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth, not the bible. As Holy as it is.

In fact if you look at Matthew 25:35-40, you will notice that he knew exactly which issues would be critical at the time of his return (which is now) -

What makes you think his return is “now” ?

This is my believe. Like I already said it is based on his teachings and his miracles

How do you know then that any of it is true?

I never claimed infallibility.

Then you should have an open…mind that you could be in error.

The time of personhood for the fetus is based on my belief

. Your belief based on what? What is the source of this belief? I assume you have one… ?

"those who have made others suffer, will have to answer for their actions

Yes, this is very Christian. Christ said to let the children come to him. Anyone who prevents those smallest of children from being born…by ripping off their arms, legs and crushing their skulls, will have to answer to the One God.

 

[openmind77]

…The solemn teachings of the Church have God’s favour, they are endorsed in heaven (by God) - Jesus said so. Thus, they cannot be “mistakes”. The decisions of judges enjoy no such favour. They can be corrupt, wrong in law, or based on misleading or wrong evidence.

I don’t believe that God automatically favors or endorses the Church’s or anybody else’s teachings. The teachings need to be correct in the first place. Any human being can be in error, and no human is infallible.

…
And if the Church’s solemn teachings cannot be relied upon, then Christ gave no teaching authority to the Church, meaning Scripture is unreliable and we should then have no reason to believe anything in Scripture.

This I don’t agree with. One mistake does not invalidate everything. Einstein made a few mistakes, that does not invalidate all his work.

The Church’s teaching is that abortion is wrong, and that the precise timing of ensoulment is both unknown and irrelevant to the wrong of abortion.

Your “belief” is arbitrary and supported by nothing. You have no teaching authority. Your principal reason to oppose the Church’s teaching is that it would impede abortions!

My belief is not arbitrary. Read this page en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoulment - there are many different beliefs about ensoulment.

I never claimed any teaching authority. I am merely suggesting that you do not count on the Christ agreeing with your position when he returns. And that those who have caused suffering to pregnant women based on this belief about abortion, they will have to answer to the Christ for their actions.

 

[JimG]

I don’t believe that God automatically favors or endorses the Church’s or anybody else’s teachings. The teachings need to be correct in the first place. Any human being can be in error, and no human is infallible.
This I don’t agree with. One mistake does not invalidate everything. Einstein made a few mistakes, that does not invalidate all his work.

My belief is not arbitrary. Read this page en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoulment - there are many different beliefs about ensoulment.

I never claimed any teaching authority. I am merely suggesting that you do not count on the Christ agreeing with your position when he returns. And that those who have caused suffering to pregnant women based on this belief about abortion, they will have to answer to the Christ for their actions.

And no doubt those who caused suffering to slaveholders by freeing their slaves will have to answer for their actions. Ensoulment is such an unknown, why would they believe that their slaves had souls?

 

[Rau]

I don’t believe that God automatically favors or endorses the Church’s or anybody else’s teachings.

So what a waste to establish a Church, particularly one that Would teach error! And how misleading to promise it otherwise.

One mistake does not invalidate everything. Einstein made a few mistakes, that does not invalidate all his work.

Like judges, Eimstein was given no undertakings by Christ to bind in heaven. Are there “mistakes” accepted (“bound”) in heaven? As has been explained to you, by denying the Church’s capacity to teach truths as God would have them (i.e. “Bound in heaven”) all your references to and reliance on Christ collapse to nothing. Just as your “belief” that there is no person till at lest 6 months after conception is based on nothing but personal preference.

 

[Micosil]

The apostles also did not mention abortion

Oh, you mean the Didache, which is also called The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, written in the Apostolic Age, doesn’t mention abortion?

Let’s see.

The Lord’s Teaching to the Heathen by the Twelve Apostles:

1. 
   *]There are two ways, one of life and one of death; and between the two ways there is a great difference.

1. 
   

   *]Now, this is the way of life:…

   The second commandment of the Teaching: “Do not murder; do not commit adultery”; do not corrupt boys; do not fornicate; “do not steal”; do not practice magic; do not go in for sorcery; do not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant. “Do not covet your neighbor’s property; do not commit perjury; do not bear false witness”; do not slander; do not bear grudges. Do not be double-minded or double-tongued, for a double tongue is “a deadly snare.” Your words shall not be dishonest or hollow, but substantiated by action. Do not be greedy or extortionate or hypocritical or malicious or arrogant. Do not plot against your neighbor. Do not hate anybody; but reprove some, pray for others, and still others love more than your own life.

   Well, what do you know…
   
   openmind77, there is no way to get around these things. Sorry.

 

[Porknpie]

Well, what do you know…

openmind77, there is no way to get around these things. Sorry.

Openmind seems to think all of what Christianity professes, is found in the bible alone, and that if it is not explicitly taught in the bible, then it can be rejected as true.

The Didache’s words on abortion are a terrific example of the early Christian belief being taught. One that has been consistent now for 2,000 years, no matter what some people want to believe, following the Church of Self.

 

[jilly4ski]

Openmind seems to think all of what Christianity professes, is found in the bible alone, and that if it is not explicitly taught in the bible, then it can be rejected as true.

The Didache’s words on abortion are a terrific example of the early Christian belief being taught. One that has been consistent now for 2,000 years, no matter what some people want to believe, following the Church of Self.

He has set up a god, as an unknowable and unreasonable god. One where God’s physical creation does not matter, and us discovering this physical reality through science and applying our reason to it, is futile.

 

[openmind77]

So what a waste to establish a Church, particularly one that Would teach error! And how misleading to promise it otherwise.

This attitude is going to be very big problem when the Christ Returns and makes even some minor correction. I really think people should reconsider this.

Like judges, Einstein was given no undertakings by Christ to bind in heaven. Are there “mistakes” accepted (“bound”) in heaven? As has been explained to you, by denying the Church’s capacity to teach truths as God would have them (i.e. “Bound in heaven”) all your references to and reliance on Christ collapse to nothing. Just as your “belief” that there is no person till at lest 6 months after conception is based on nothing but personal preference.

I hardly denied the Church’s capacity to teach truths. I just said some errors had crept in - that is true for any institution where humans are in control. If this is not understood soon, the Return of the Christ may be quite a catastrophe for such believers.

It is not just personal preference. It is also an understanding of the nature of the soul. According to Hindu beliefs, the soul is a pre-existing intelligent entity with capacity to think, feel and experience the world without a physical body - it will not to be comfortable inhabiting one cell or even a few cells at conception inside someone’s body or staying confined there for the entire nine months. I believe it only enters there when the fetus is ready to be born (but as I said the exact point this happens is not known).