Why do we as Catholics believe that life begins at conception?

[openmind77]

Oh, you mean the Didache, which is also called The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, written in the Apostolic Age, doesn’t mention abortion? …

I think, the Didache was put together late in first century and possibly early in the second century - the apostles were all dead by then. So it is not the exact words of the apostles.

 

[Ender]

I think, the Didache was put together late in first century and possibly early in the second century - the apostles were all dead by then. So it is not the exact words of the apostles.

The Gospels were all written late in the first century - Jesus was dead by then. Shall we just assume we don’t have his exact words either?

Ender

 

[Ender]

I hardly denied the Church’s capacity to teach truths. I just said some errors had crept in - that is true for any institution where humans are in control.

How are we to know what is error and what is truth? What standard is available that allows us to distinguish one from the other?

Ender

 

[openmind77]

The Gospels were all written late in the first century - Jesus was dead by then. Shall we just assume we don’t have his exact words either?

Ender

Regardless of the time written, the Scriptures were put together by good, honest, holy people. If they quote somebody we can be assured they did their best to be accurate (especially so if the quote is in more than one gospel)

 

[openmind77]

How are we to know what is error and what is truth? What standard is available that allows us to distinguish one from the other?

Ender

Unfortunately there is no easy way to do this. Apparently people here don’t have much respect for a majority opinion, but a educated world majority is usually not wrong for an extended period of time (they can only be fooled for a limited amount of time). This concept is popularly know as ‘the wisdom of crowds’ - however silly that may sound, there is much truth in it even when applied to theological ideas.

But for now, the time of the Return of the Christ is so short, that we just have to wait at most a couple of years to learn the truth. But what we learn from him may be a great disappointment for many who are so invested in dogma.

 

[Micosil]

I think, the Didache was put together late in first century and possibly early in the second century - the apostles were all dead by then. So it is not the exact words of the apostles.

:tsktsk:

Many English and American scholars once dated the text to the late 2nd century,[3] a view still held today,[13] but most scholars now assign the Didache to the first century.[14][15] The document is a composite work, and the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls with its Manual of Discipline provided evidence of development over a considerable period of time, beginning as a Jewish catechetical work which was then developed by into a church manual.[16] Additionally, apart from two minuscule fragments, the Greek text of the Didache has only survived in a single manuscript, the Codex Hierosolymitanus. Dating the document is thus made difficult both by the lack of hard evidence and its composite character. The Didache may have been compiled in its present form as late as 150,** although a date closer to the end of the first century seems more probable to many**.[17]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache

There are other signs of early date: the simplicity of the baptismal rite, which is apparently neither preceded by exorcisms nor by formal admission to the catechumenate; the simplicity of the Eucharist, in comparison with the elaborate quasi-Eucharistic prayer in Clement, I Corinthians 59-61; the permission to prophets to extemporize their Eucharistic thanksgiving; the immediate expectation of the second advent. …] The local ministers are bishops and deacons, as in St. Paul (Philippians 1:1) and St. Clement. Presbyters are not mentioned, and the bishops are clearly presbyter-bishops, as in Acts 20, and in the Pastoral Epistles of St. Paul. But when St. Ignatius wrote in 107, or at the latest 117, the three orders of bishops, priests, and deacons were already considered necessary to the very name of a Church, in Syria, Asia Minor, and Rome. If it is probable that in St. Clement’s time there was as yet no “monarchical” bishop at Corinth, yet such a state of things cannot have lasted long in any important Church. On this ground therefore the Didache must be set either in the first century or else in some backwater of church life. …] We have no right to assume a second-century order of apostles, who had not seen Christ in the flesh, for the sake of bolstering up a preconceived notion of the date of the Didache. Since in that work the visit of an apostle or of a pretended apostle is contemplated as a not improbable event, we cannot place the book later than about 80. The limit, would seem to be from 65 to 80. Harnack gives 131-160, holding that Barnabas and the Didache independently employ a Christianized form of the Jewish “Two Ways”, while Did., xvi, is citing Barnabas — a somewhat roundabout hypothesis. He places Barnabas in 131, and the Didache later than this. Those who date Barnabas under Vespasian mostly make the Didache the borrower in cc. i-v and xvi. Many, with Funk, place Barnabas under Nerva. The commoner view is that which puts the Didache before 100. Bartlet agrees with Ehrhard that 80-90 is the most probable decade. Sabatier, Minasi, Jacquier, and others have preferred a date even before 70.

newadvent.org/cathen/04779a.htm

 

[Micosil]

This concept is popularly know as ‘the wisdom of crowds’ - however silly that may sound, there is much truth in it even when applied to theological ideas.

Truths related to divinity have nothing to do with how human beings may reason, whatever consensus they may reach. I’d rather trust the Church that Christ built.

 

[openmind77]

Truths related to divinity have nothing to do with how human beings may reason, whatever consensus they may reach. I’d rather trust the Church that Christ built.

This is quite true. For instance, the concept of reincarnation is believed in by at most one fourth of the world (probably much less), but I believe it to be true. However, I do not discount the possibility that I am wrong. The opinion of the majority should always be treated with respect and given consideration when making your own judgment.

That is why I keep saying that the majority of the world believes abortion should be allowed for women who seek it and just few countries have strict limits on this procedure. The minority can keep believing that they are correct and the world is wrong only for so long, but they need to realize that they are a minority.

Of course, when someone like the Christ returns, we will finally have an authority that can not be questioned.

 

[Porknpie]

I think, the Didache was put together late in first century and possibly early in the second century - the apostles were all dead by then. So it is not the exact words of the apostles.

Also Openmind, keep in mind that there are writings in the bible, the New Testament, that were never penned by Apostles.

 

[Porknpie]

But for now, the time of the Return of the Christ is so short, that we just have to wait at most a couple of years to learn the truth. .

And you know this how Openmind?

 

[Porknpie]

This is quite true. For instance, the concept of reincarnation is believed in by at most one fourth of the world (probably much less)

Christ said to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth. Christians are still doing so, still trying to attest to the Truth of Christ being the Incarnate Son of the one true God.

However, I do not discount the possibility that I am wrong.

The opinion of the majority should always be treated with respect and given consideration when making your own judgment.

Always with respect. St. Paul does so when preaching to the Corinthians for example. But this doesn’t mean that our judgment, nor St. Paul’s, wasn’t formed ahead of time.

That is why I keep saying that the majority of the world believes abortion should be allowed for women who seek it and just few countries have strict limits on this procedure. The minority can keep believing that they are correct and the world is wrong only for so long, but they need to realize that they are a minority.

Majority vote matters not. Truth matters as to what the One God is calling us to do: love our neighbor, which includes protecting the most innocent and vulnerable. What is legal can come from a vote. Morality not.

Of course, when someone like the Christ returns, we will finally have an authority that can not be questioned.

He left us an authority. The Church. And he said that he would guide it to ALL truth, not just some. He calls His Church the Pillar of Truth. And, he said regarding the authority of His Church to teach:

“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me” (Lk 10:16)

 

[Micosil]

And you know this how Openmind?

I’ve tried asking him this before, and the answer was something along the lines of what Muslim theologians claim. Why Hindus listen to Muslim religious scholars is absolutely beyond me, to be honest.

 

[Rau]

This attitude is going to be very big problem when the Christ Returns and makes even some minor correction. I really think people should reconsider this.

The Christ would have to explain why he broke his promise to the Church. Why it’s most solemn teaching, which he said would “bind in heaven”, did not! Yes, that will be a very big problem!

I hardly denied the Church’s capacity to teach truths.

Even you and I have that capacity! Christ promised somewhat more than that to the Church he established!

It is not just personal preference. It is also an understanding of the nature of the soul. According to Hindu beliefs, the soul is a pre-existing intelligent entity with capacity to think, feel and experience the world without a physical body - it will not to be comfortable inhabiting one cell or even a few cells at conception inside someone’s body or staying confined there for the entire nine months. I believe it only enters there when the fetus is ready to be born (but as I said the exact point this happens is not known).

An entirely arbitrary belief, with no basis, but nicely adaptable to a pro-abortion position.

 

[Rau]

I think, the Didache was put together late in first century and possibly early in the second century - the apostles were all dead by then. So it is not the exact words of the apostles.

RAOFLOL!!

That you would reject this was clear the moment it was produced! Anything which contradicts your position must be rejected as faulty or flawed or in error.

 

[Porknpie]

It is not just personal preference. It is also an understanding of the nature of the soul. According to Hindu beliefs, the soul is a pre-existing intelligent entity with capacity to think, feel and experience the world without a physical body

Interesting that I know of no one in Christianity who professes that they have been reincarnated into this life. No memories of any other life than this one. And the Revelation of the One True God states that it is appointed for man to die once, then to be judged, and to spend eternity in either heaven or hell.

No re-loops into other lives.

Do you believe reincarnation is limited to non-Christians?

 

[Rau]

Mainstream Hinduism is strongly anti-abortion.
fnsa.org/fall98/murti1.html

Any number of references, including the above, will confirm this.

There is a fringe interpretation, not widely held, that the soul enters around the 7th month. Mainstream Hinduism rejects this. Openmind is with the fringe.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_and_abortion

This article contrast the Hundu anti-abortion stance with the legal position in India.
hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_abortions.asp

 

[estesbob]

If you dont feed them they will go away.

 

[Porknpie]

Mainstream Hinduism is strongly anti-abortion.
fnsa.org/fall98/murti1.html

Any number of references, including the above, will confirm this.

There is a fringe interpretation, not widely held, that the soul enters around the 7th month. Mainstream Hinduism rejects this. Openmind is with the fringe.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_and_abortion

This article contrast the Hundu anti-abortion stance with the legal position in India.
hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_abortions.asp

Thank you for the citations. This made my day.:clapping:

*"The international periodical Hinduism Today acknowledges: “Across the board, Hindu religious leaders perceive abortion at any stage of fetal development as killing (some say murder)…and as an act that has serious karmic repercussions.”

and

“For those Hindus who are not aware of the [soul-evolutionary] truths, it is our responsibility to advise them not to undertake abortion,” says V. R. Kandasubramaniam, an elderly scholar from the Sister Nivedita Academy in Madras*

 

[ynotzap]

:

It is not just personal preference. It is also an understanding of the nature of the soul. According to Hindu beliefs, the soul is a pre-existing intelligent entity with capacity to think, feel and experience the world without a physical body - it will not to be comfortable inhabiting one cell or even a few cells at conception inside someone’s body or staying confined there for the entire nine months. I believe it only enters there when the fetus is ready to be born (but as I said the exact point this happens is not known).

The philosophical doctrine that the soul is a spiritual substance together with the body, constitutes man. Sound philosophical systems have always admitted the existence, the spirituality, and the immortality of the human soul. This philosophical doctrine is confirmed and enriched by the combined lights of revelation and theology.

Holy Scripture: The soul is created by God and was directly infused in the body of Adam "And the Lord formed man of the slime of the earth, and breathed into his face, the breadth of life, and man became a living soul. There are other biblical references to confirm it’s spirituality, and it’s immortality The soul is the form of an individual body, it actualizes it, makes the body what it is. There is only one soul for each body, not one soul for many bodies as some claim in reincarnation. If the soul pre-existed with it’s faculties, it’s intelligence would have had to be infused directly by God of it’s own existence, for the soul knows of it’s own existence through reflection (It knows that it knows through its faculty of intelligence). No such experience of human nature confirms any knowledge of pre-existence, it would be , necessarily, a common experience, since everyone has a spiritual soul. We first learn through our senses, the soul does not feel, it only understands, it uses the senses to , come into contact with material things, the natural way God ordained for us to learn, not by His direct infusion of His knowledge into our minds, like the Angels. There is one soul for every individual body, no reincarnation. Judgement comes to each individual with one body which is destined for Heaven or Hell by the choices each individual makes. The soul is not joined to many bodies, it is the form of one body, nor to a series of bodies.

Also in reference to “group wisdom” QUOTE: Abraham Lincoln: You can fool some of the people all of the time, and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time. Simply because God placed in each individual a desire to know the truth from birth, it is the natural appetite for human intelligence, a faculty of the soul.

 

[openmind77]

Mainstream Hinduism is strongly anti-abortion.
…

My position on abortion is not based on Hinduism (although belief about reincarnation is part of it). I am sure there are many Hindu scholars who are anti-abortion, but there is no ‘pro-life’ movement to speak of in India (although Indians will protest just about anything)

The Christ would have to explain why he broke his promise to the Church. Why it’s most solemn teaching, which he said would “bind in heaven”, did not! Yes, that will be a very big problem!

It is not his fault if people misinterpret. But I am sure he will explain well.

,
An entirely arbitrary belief, with no basis, but nicely adaptable to a pro-abortion position.

I am glad you like it.

Interesting that I know of no one in Christianity who professes that they have been reincarnated into this life. No memories of any other life than this one. And the Revelation of the One True God states that it is appointed for man to die once, then to be judged, and to spend eternity in either heaven or hell.
Do you believe reincarnation is limited to non-Christians?

There are no Hindus who remember past lives either - not remembering is part of process, otherwise life would be too burdensome.

Of course all humans (Hindus or Christians) go thru the same process. Christ never said there is only life or one death (probably Paul said that),

The designated soul of an aborted fetus is at the front of the queue to be born at the next chance, so its life is merely postponed rather than completely lost. I am not even sure that most souls mind very much. It is like being told you school year has been postponed, in some cases that may be a relief.