Why do we as Catholics believe that life begins at conception?

[openmind77]

Since when does consensus determine the truth?

Neither does a minority determine the truth. Only someone like the Christ can tell us the truth.

What did Jesus instruct you to do while you are waiting for Him to return?

Be kind, compassionate, merciful - not be judgmental, do not condemn or make someone else suffer, when you do not have the complete knowledge of the circumstances or the truth. Actually pretty much what Pope Francis advocates.

But the great thing is, we don’t have long to wait - just a couple more years at most before he is here.

But if you spend this time making other people miserable, making their life difficult, merely because you think they are doing something wrong against your own beliefs, there will eventually be consequences. There are no rewards in heaven for making anyone suffer.

 

[Viki63]

But if you spend this time making other people miserable, making their life difficult, merely because you think they are doing something wrong against your own beliefs, there will eventually be consequences. There are no rewards in heaven for making anyone suffer.

Your quote about fanatics is ironically very appropriate.
You don’t think that ripping a baby limb from limb in the womb is making him suffer? Have you seen The Silent Scream?

.

 

[openmind77]

Your quote about fanatics is ironically very appropriate.
You don’t think that ripping a baby limb from limb in the womb is making him suffer? Have you seen The Silent Scream?

.

Again the fetus is not a baby. The fetus is part of the pregnant woman.

You can explain to the Christ your rationale for making the pregnant woman’s life difficult when he returns very soon. I am sure he will be very merciful.

 

[Rau]

Again the fetus is not a baby. The fetus is part of the pregnant woman.

Wow - a woman with 2 complete and distinct sets of DNA, 4 arms, 4 legs, 4 eyes., 2 hearts (including 2 distinct heartbeats, the second detectable from about 6 weeks…). And possibly 2 sexes in one!

Definition of Pregnant:
…of a woman (or female animal): having a child (or young) developing in the uterus.

 

[graciew]

Again the fetus is not a baby. The fetus is part of the pregnant woman.

You can explain to the Christ your rationale for making the pregnant woman’s life difficult when he returns very soon. I am sure he will be very merciful.

Ok. The fetus is not a baby. A baby is not a teen and a teen is not an elderly.
Say , all " names" to describe stages of growth or development of human being.
If what you are saying is that a human fetus is not human , the question is if at any stage a human being can develop into say , a horse or a hen.
Now if what you are saying that because of some event ypu know of , certain type of action develops into harassment then we might talk about ways of addressing an issue helping mom and child/baby/ fetus.

  A new born baby , a human fetus/ baby are dependant on their moms. As many persons due to different circumstances at different stages in their lives.Sometimes even to breathe.

Now if what you are saying is that any human being who is dependant on the love and care of others is discardable. Then ,what else can we say ?

 

[Micosil]

Very interesting post, but you need to correct the part I underlined - what you mean is the teaching of your church. In this country, most of us do not accept this teaching from one singular church.

If we accepted the Catholic Church’s teaching on the matter, abortion would not be legal and safe.

If we accepted the Catholic Church’s teaching on the matter, there’d be no abortions period, safe or not, legal or not.

I am truly happy that you feel like you understand God’s truth about abortion.

I’m sure you’ll forgive the rest of us for failing to grasp unconvincing dogma that you accept as crystal clear.

What “dogma” are secular pro-lifers following, say? Not all pro-lifers are so for religious motivations, you know. Before I even considered the Catholic Church as an option, I knew that abortion was a moral issue – if what is in the womb from the time of conception is a human being (and this is a scientific fact not open for debate; look it up in the gazillions of biology and embryology books out there), then how are the woman’s “rights” to bodily autonomy and to not be inconvenienced greater than that human being to stay alive?

Any atheist who is rational can follow this line of reasoning.

 

[Micosil]

Again the fetus is not a baby. The fetus is part of the pregnant woman.

:tsktsk: This flies in the face of everything we know about biology. There is no theology involved here, nada, zip. It may not be a “baby” in the sense that it hasn’t reached a specific age or geographic location (outside the womb), but as I explained to Little Sheep in my previous message, at the time of conception, a new human being comes into existence.

You can explain to the Christ your rationale for making the pregnant woman’s life difficult when he returns very soon. I am sure he will be very merciful.

Christ is facepalming know and wishes people would read a biology book.

 

[Brendan]

Again the fetus is not a baby. The fetus is part of the pregnant woman. .

Really? Where did you get that? Not from biology. Biologically, they are distinct.

What you just claimed that every pregnant woman has two heads and 4 legs ; and that half of all pregnant women have a penis

Is that really what you are trying to say??

 

[clem456]

Again the fetus is not a baby. The fetus is part of the pregnant woman.

You can explain to the Christ your rationale for making the pregnant woman’s life difficult when he returns very soon. I am sure he will be very merciful.

This is an ancient and barbaric view of humanity. The idea that human beings are subject to those with power and control over them justifies all sorts of barbarism, from slavery to genocide. And you use the name of Christ to justify this barbarism!

At least, I can agree with you that his coming is sooner than we think.

 

[petra22]

That is the whole point. There is no consensus that abortion is evil (although we can all agree that it is undesirable). A majority of the world and its population believes it is not evil and should be permitted. **Jesus never said anything about abortion. So nobody can say with any authority that it is evil. **That is why it is best to wait for Jesus to return to tell us for certain. Until then follow the law of the land and don’t impose your morality on others.

Openmind, should a woman not have all the facts? Should she not know how the “thing” is developing in her body. The thing she is partly responsible for??? I know there are circumstances of rape and incest where the girl doesn’t have much say in the situation, but there are plenty of other situations where she is a willing even if not fully understanding of what is going on and the possibilities of pregnancy that may occur… should the woman not know that by the time she finds out she is pregnant, there is a life growing inside her with full DNA of a new individual?

I googled this for girls who may not even know they are pregnant…by 21 days, the third week after you conceive and miss your monthly …

This week, your baby’s ticker will start beating for the first time! (Neither you nor your doctor can hear it yet, but it may be possible to see the movement on an ultrasound.) And your little one has been really busy growing! The embryo now has three distinct layers: the outer ectoderm, which will form the nervous system, ears, eyes, inner ear and many connective tissues; the endoderm, or inner layer, which will grow into internal organs like the lungs, intestines and bladder; and the middle mesoderm, which will eventually make way for the heart and circulatory system. In the weeks to come, the mesoderm will also evolve into bones, muscles, kidneys and reproductive organs.

Don’t girls have the right to know this? I’m not judging their response to this information. I just want them to have this information and if you google it, you get pictures also!!!

 

[clem456]

Openmind, should a woman not have all the facts? Should she not know how the “thing” is developing in her body. The thing she is partly responsible for??? I know there are circumstances of rape and incest where the girl doesn’t have much say in the situation, but there are plenty of other situations where she is a willing even if not fully understanding of what is going on and the possibilities of pregnancy that may occur… should the woman not know that by the time she finds out she is pregnant, there is a life growing inside her with full DNA of a new individual?

I googled this for girls who may not even know they are pregnant…by 21 days, the third week after you conceive and miss your monthly …

This week, your baby’s ticker will start beating for the first time! (Neither you nor your doctor can hear it yet, but it may be possible to see the movement on an ultrasound.) And your little one has been really busy growing! The embryo now has three distinct layers: the outer ectoderm, which will form the nervous system, ears, eyes, inner ear and many connective tissues; the endoderm, or inner layer, which will grow into internal organs like the lungs, intestines and bladder; and the middle mesoderm, which will eventually make way for the heart and circulatory system. In the weeks to come, the mesoderm will also evolve into bones, muscles, kidneys and reproductive organs.

Don’t girls have the right to know this? I’m not judging their response to this information. I just want them to have this information and if you google it, you get pictures also!!!

Knowledge is key to any decision making process. It is an injustice to withhold knowledge.
Imagine in the 1800’s, if citizens of the US had the benefit of DNA analysis and other modern observations about the full humanity the black person. Would we have needed a war to end slavery, if people would have had the knowledge that black people are not inferior human beings?

Injustice depends on ignorance to thrive, and especially on the withholding of that information by those who know better.

 

[HelenRose]

That is the whole point. There is no consensus that abortion is evil (although we can all agree that it is undesirable). A majority of the world and its population believes it is not evil and should be permitted. **Jesus never said anything about abortion. So nobody can say with any authority that it is evil. **That is why it is best to wait for Jesus to return to tell us for certain. Until then follow the law of the land and don’t impose your morality on others.

If you believe the story of Mary and Elizabeth, can you just imagine Our Blessed Mother Mary and Saint Elizabeth sitting at the table discussing the merits of abortion after Elizabeth’s baby “leaped” inside her womb in recognition of Who Mary was carrying in Her womb.

Jesus was God Incarnate the moment He was conceived.
We are killing our young. There are those who are planning on making suffering a capital offence.

A civilization that kills in young, kills their aged, suffering and helpless will soon have no desire to live. This civilization will not need God to come and destroy it. This civilization will rot from the inside out.

 

[graciew]

If we accepted the Catholic Church’s teaching on the matter, there’d be no abortions period, safe or not, legal or not.

Any atheist who is rational can follow this line of reasoning.

Micosil , yes.
Sometimes ,just Sometimes I wonder when was it that I started being requested to present my birth certificarte to demonstrate that I was born when people have me right before their eyes…Well ,probably there is some simplicity we lost along the way…

 

[openmind77]

This is an ancient and barbaric view of humanity. The idea that human beings are subject to those with power and control over them justifies all sorts of barbarism, from slavery to genocide. And you use the name of Christ to justify this barbarism!

I am not sure where you get the idea that giving women the right to choose is controlling them. Denying women their rights is controlling them. I don’t justify anything in the name of the Christ. I am saying the Christ is the only authority that can resolve such a dispute.

At least, I can agree with you that his coming is sooner than we think.

I am glad you agree on this. Just don’t be too sure that he will agree with everything you believe.

Openmind, should a woman not have all the facts? …Don’t girls have the right to know this? I’m not judging their response to this information. I just want them to have this information and if you google it, you get pictures also!!!

Nobody is stopping you from making information available. Nobody is stopping the woman from obtaining this information of her own free will.

However, many are attempting to deny women their rights, to make their lives more difficult and unaffordable (these attempts usually only affect poor women). Those who do this will have to explain their actions to the Christ when he returns. I am sure he will be very merciful and understanding,

 

[graciew]

h

However, many are attempting to deny women their rights, to make their lives more difficult and unaffordable (these attempts usually only affect poor women). ng,

Now I think I understand…

After all I have read here I assume ypu are talking about Planned Parenthood there. Is that correct?

 

[openmind77]

Now I think I understand…

After all I have read here I assume ypu are talking about Planned Parenthood there. Is that correct?

Not necessarily to do with PP, what I am saying is independent of anything to do with PP.

There have been many attempts (some successful ones) to make life difficult for women who wish to choose to terminate a pregnancy,even going so far as to make it impossible - denying them the right to control and have autonomy over their bodies.

The belief amongst those who do such things, is that they are doing “God’s” work, that the Christ agrees with their actions, that they are doing ‘good’ by persecuting these women.

I am just pointing out this is not necessarily true - there are no rewards in heaven for making anyone’s life difficult or making these unfortunate women suffer. Such actions will have to be answered for on the Day of Judgement and that day is approaching rapidly - just a couple of years away.

 

[Rau]

…There have been many attempts (some successful ones) to make life difficult for women who wish to choose to terminate a pregnancy,even going so far as to make it impossible - denying them the right to control and have autonomy over their bodies.

No - you’ve gone off the track. The discussion is about the morality of killing’s one’s unborn offspring, not the question of what legal position should be adopted on that issue. The questions are entirely separate. We can all point to unequivocally immoral acts which the law does not “outlaw”.

 

[openmind77]

No - you’ve gone off the track. The discussion is about the morality of killing’s one’s unborn offspring, not the question of what legal position should be adopted on that issue. The questions are entirely separate. We can all point to unequivocally immoral acts which the law does not “outlaw”.

I am saying here that in the Christ’s eyes the action of denying the pregnant woman her right to control over her own body may be worse than any action the woman seeks. Merely because you believe that the act is immoral that does not mean the Christ will agree with you (and a majority of the world also disagrees with you).

 

[Rau]

I am saying here that in the Christ’s eyes the action of denying the pregnant woman her right to control over her own body may be worse than any action the woman seeks. Merely because you believe that the act is immoral that does not mean the Christ will agree with you (and a majority of the world also disagrees with you).

Of course you are speculating about the rights of pregnant women - you are presuming the answer to the very matter in debate!

No, let’s be clear - what you are “saying here” is what you actually said: “…There have been many attempts (some successful ones) to make life difficult for women who wish to choose to terminate a pregnancy,even going so far as to make it impossible - denying them the right to control and have autonomy over their bodies.”

That is a step beyond discussing* what is moral, and what is not* - which is a question closely aligned to the thread topic. You issue goes to questions of legality and/or treatment of pregnant women by others. Entirely a separate matter!

 

[openmind77]

Of course you are speculating about the rights of pregnant women - you are presuming the answer to the very matter in debate!

No, let’s be clear - what you are “saying here” is what you actually said: “…There have been many attempts (some successful ones) to make life difficult for women who wish to choose to terminate a pregnancy,even going so far as to make it impossible - denying them the right to control and have autonomy over their bodies.”

That is a step beyond discussing* what is moral, and what is not* - which is a question closely aligned to the thread topic. You issue goes to questions of legality and/or treatment of pregnant women by others. Entirely a separate matter!

The actions taken by the people who deny the women their rights are very closely related to their belief in when human life begins (which is the topic of the thread) So both questions are closely aligned to the topic.

And I am not talking about legality at all. The Christ will not look at legality when judging those who make unfortunate women suffer. These people are doing it because of their belief that the fetus is a human being at conception.