Why do you feel socialism is bad?

[ecce_ego]

ecce_ego;6099963:

Hmmm…the first link says that King-Harbor, where the woman died, is federally funded.

It also says nothing about the woman in question lacking health insurance. It says she was arrested for a parole violation while in the ER. Exactly how will more tax dollars solve that problem?

The problem is that **I **don’t want to give MY hard-earned money to the government or any hospital so they can have enough well-trained, caring staff. That’s what we get when we leave it up to people capitalists to ‘care’ about people. Here’s the way healthcare works in America:

1. Form corporation
2. ???
3. PROFIT!!!

 

[ecce_ego]

Oh, you guys did hear that the health reform bill passed, right? Now that we are ‘socialist’, are you going to go to Canada if you don’t like it? Sorry, but I can’t think of any remaining fascist countries to which you could go.

 

[fultonfish]

Oh, you guys did hear that the health reform bill passed, right? Now that we are ‘socialist’, are you going to go to Canada if you don’t like it? Sorry, but I can’t think of any remaining fascist countries to which you could go.

Costa Rica is gearing up to offer their own medical insurance and their own hospitals and clinics especially for U.S. citizens.

Other places may be doing the same thing.

 

[ecce_ego]

Sweden is a Democratic Socialist country. I will assume you are really as ignorant as your post made you appear and that it was not just a sarcastic logical fallacy.

You see, ‘socialism’ is not cut-and-dried just like capitalism is not. We do not even live in a ‘True’ capitalist nation. True capitalism consists of:

1. Competition. There must be True (equal) competition. No one company must be allowed to gain a competitive advantage through unfair political or financial means
2. Choice. People (I refuse to be called a ‘consumer’, and so should you) must have True choice- they cannot be forced to buy from you because you drove every other store out of town by buying politicians in return for tax breaks that others don’t get (I’m talking to you, Wal Mart)
3. Access. All people must have True access to the market- this includes regular people who should not have to pay extra taxes for doing business (as opposed to corporations which, being ‘fake people’, must pay for the right to exist.

We have none of that in America. So it’s a red herring to say 'I thought they were socialist, not a democracy. You really can have both at once. We humans are capable enough and smart enough to mix two different things tohgether and come up with something that still works, FFS/

Also, we are not even a ‘Democracy’. We are a Democratic Republic’. Democratic means ‘ruled by the people’ and ‘Republic’ means 'through people who vote for the people who will actually choose who leads you. Two very different things, yet they seem to work well enough together.

 

[ecce_ego]

Costa Rica is gearing up to offer their own medical insurance and their own hospitals and clinics especially for U.S. citizens.

Other places may be doing the same thing.

I am really interested if people will notice any real change in their own treatment, and decide to go somewhere else. Maybe it’s just because I’ve been a hard-working lower-class man all my life and thus have not had a huge tax burden in the first place, but I can truly say I’ve never significantly noticed any of the tax increases that have happened in the course of my work lifetime. I feel people really won’t notice any increase in their taxes for this plan, so if anything suffers it will have to be their quality of care. Will the greedy, selfish insurance companies take their ball and go home now that they cannot deny you insurance for pre-existing conditions like pregnancy? They WILL find a way to make you pay, that is for sure.

Edit: also, there is no public option. So nothing about this bill is really socialist. It just imposes regulations on the insurance companies. In fact, since it forces the uninsured to GET insured- through private insurers, no lesss- it is more fascism than anything. (fascism is the merger of state and corporate power, or so said its inventor, Benito Mussolini.)

 

[sidbrown]

I am really interested if people will notice any real change in their own treatment, and decide to go somewhere else. Maybe it’s just because I’ve been a hard-working lower-class man all my life and thus have not had a huge tax burden in the first place, but I can truly say I’ve never significantly noticed any of the tax increases that have happened in the course of my work lifetime. I feel people really won’t notice any increase in their taxes for this plan, so if anything suffers it will have to be their quality of care. Will the greedy, selfish insurance companies take their ball and go home now that they cannot deny you insurance for pre-existing conditions like pregnancy? They WILL find a way to make you pay, that is for sure.

Edit: also, there is no public option. So nothing about this bill is really socialist. It just imposes regulations on the insurance companies. In fact, since it forces the uninsured to GET insured- through private insurers, no lesss- it is more fascism than anything. (fascism is the merger of state and corporate power, or so said its inventor, Benito Mussolini.)

The regressive slaes taxes have gone up considerably in many states.

 

[latin_rite]

Looking over this forum, most (if not all) of the members are strongly anti-socialist. Why?

Note: I do understand that abortion is evil if not done for (both physical and mental) medicinal reasons. If abortion is not funded, at all, would you be in favor of it?

A big mistake by socialist. Is that they think in order to have socialized health care. You need the country to become a socialist country. Australia is very “capitalistic” (is that even a word? meh) country.But it has a socialized health care. It also has Private health insurance. It also has a hecs scheme. Which provides kids from poor families with cheaps loans and some income support to go to university. (which have to be paid back.).
Although both these things have suffered under a few years of bad goverment from both sides of the political fence. They still work well. Not as good as they used to. But once they stop using those two things as political footballs, they will work at their old levels again…You don’t have to go socialist to get those things.socialisim is a dead end. And quite frankly. You need to be a gasp capitalist country to make those things work at all.

Well The USSR was socialist and they weren’t exactly nice when it came to freedom of religion, the same is true for almost any communist nation.

That is true my friend. But…Sometimes it seems that in democracieswe are free to practice our faith. Just as long as we dont show it.

 

[cecilia97]

cecilia97;6099981:

The problem is that **I **

don’t want to give MY hard-earned money to the government or any hospital so they can have enough well-trained, caring staff. That’s what we get when we leave it up to people capitalists to ‘care’ about people. Here’s the way healthcare works in America:

1. Form corporation
2. ???
3. PROFIT!!!

South Park references always make good props.

 

[Lutheranteach]

I’ve always wondered how many diseases could be cured (I think diabetes is a prime example) if the disease just wasn’t so darn profitable. Why would I (if I were a drug company) ever want diabetes cured when I can make money year after year providing insulin? Why would a drug company ever spend money to find the cure to a rare disease? Say a 1,000 people a year die of a rare disease. Maybe it could be easily cured by throwing a lot of time and research toward it…but why would I do that? There’s no profit in saving those people when I could spend the same time and money to make stuff that fades age spots that will sell millions of units year in and year out.

 

[latin_rite]

I’ve always wondered how many diseases could be cured (I think diabetes is a prime example) if the disease just wasn’t so darn profitable. Why would I (if I were a drug company) ever want diabetes cured when I can make money year after year providing insulin? Why would a drug company ever spend money to find the cure to a rare disease? Say a 1,000 people a year die of a rare disease. Maybe it could be easily cured by throwing a lot of time and research toward it…but why would I do that? There’s no profit in saving those people when I could spend the same time and money to make stuff that fades age spots that will sell millions of units year in and year out.

Have you been reading my mind? I agree with you 100% on what you just said.
Same as with cancer research. They probably get more money in donations than they would from finding a cure.

 

[TenBobNote]

I’ve always wondered how many diseases could be cured (I think diabetes is a prime example) if the disease just wasn’t so darn profitable. Why would I (if I were a drug company) ever want diabetes cured when I can make money year after year providing insulin? Why would a drug company ever spend money to find the cure to a rare disease? Say a 1,000 people a year die of a rare disease. Maybe it could be easily cured by throwing a lot of time and research toward it…but why would I do that? There’s no profit in saving those people when I could spend the same time and money to make stuff that fades age spots that will sell millions of units year in and year out.

This is the evil of corporatism. The government has so many rules and regulations on the health industry it is very hard for someone to get into it and advance it. When big pharmaceutical company’s control everything this is what happens. If true competition was allowed to take place the little guys would be able to offer alternatives and cures.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Jesus never said not to do a LOT of things…that argument could go almost anywhere.

But no, while we elect representatives, the government does not act according to the will of the people all the time. Abortion is a perfect example.

Or are you advocating a Christian government that would do our works of mercy for us?

While I highly doubt that would ever happen, I wouldn’t do aanything to stop it either, unless it was Calvinistic Christian.

 

[tjm190]

He never said not to either. Caesar is us these days because it’s we that elect our ogvernement.

False- WE are still ourselves. When you form a government that uses tax money to do charity, the people who pay the taxes are doing the charity.

 

[aspawloski4th]

False- WE are still ourselves. When you form a government that uses tax money to do charity, the people who pay the taxes are doing the charity.

In the same sprit of those who oppose me here, where is your documentation for that?

 

[tjm190]

In the same sprit of those who oppose me here, where is your documentation for that?

Documentation for what?

You do charity when you give your money to somebody else right? When you take somebody else’s and give it away, you’re not charitable, just a lousy thief.

 

[fish90]

Since when did capitalism in this country become evil? The current system is certainly not pure capitalism which the Church opposes, and certainly does not work always, so we turn to socialism. Everybody needs a cell phone, everybody deserves a house, everybody must have a car. What we cannot afford we beg the government for money. More money there is given means prices will rise. Makes a whole lot of sense, right?

We forget what made this country great. Blood, sweat and tears brought people from rags to riches not redistributing wealth. Capitalism is one of the best ways to reduce prices while keeping quality high.

I do like the post about how profit is a bad incentive for curing disease, yet I find there is a better way to solve this problem than taking over the health care industry, if that is what they are doing (I do not know because not even the lawmakers have read the bill).

 

[sidbrown]

Since when did capitalism in this country become evil? The current system is certainly not pure capitalism which the Church opposes, and certainly does not work always, so we turn to socialism. Everybody needs a cell phone, everybody deserves a house, everybody must have a car. What we cannot afford we beg the government for money. More money there is given means prices will rise. Makes a whole lot of sense, right?

We forget what made this country great. Blood, sweat and tears brought people from rags to riches not redistributing wealth. Capitalism is one of the best ways to reduce prices while keeping quality high.

I do like the post about how profit is a bad incentive for curing disease, yet I find there is a better way to solve this problem than taking over the health care industry, if that is what they are doing (I do not know because not even the lawmakers have read the bill).

Wall Street wants billions and billions of taxpayer dollars and socialism for the rich on Wall Street, but they don;t want government to lift a finger to help the poor of America or those Americans who have to leave their houses which are being foreclosed on them.

 

[latin_rite]

Wall Street wants billions and billions of taxpayer dollars and socialism for the rich on Wall Street, but they don;t want government to lift a finger to help the poor of America or those Americans who have to leave their houses which are being foreclosed on them.

Excellent point.

 

[fultonfish]

I am really interested if people will notice any real change in their own treatment, and decide to go somewhere else. Maybe it’s just because I’ve been a hard-working lower-class man all my life and thus have not had a huge tax burden in the first place, but I can truly say I’ve never significantly noticed any of the tax increases that have happened in the course of my work lifetime. I feel people really won’t notice any increase in their taxes for this plan, so if anything suffers it will have to be their quality of care. Will the greedy, selfish insurance companies take their ball and go home now that they cannot deny you insurance for pre-existing conditions like pregnancy? They WILL find a way to make you pay, that is for sure.

Edit: also, there is no public option. So nothing about this bill is really socialist. It just imposes regulations on the insurance companies. In fact, since it forces the uninsured to GET insured- through private insurers, no lesss- it is more fascism than anything. (fascism is the merger of state and corporate power, or so said its inventor, Benito Mussolini.)

Many insurance companies [if they are stock companies] publish annual and quarterly reports and you can get them by calling and asking. You can also look them up on Yahoo Finance.

Greedy selfish insurance companies cannot just take their ball and go home.

They have to invest the premiums they collect and use the income to pay claims.

An insurance company is not a welfare agency.

The way an insurance company works is that a bunch of people get together and pool their money to try to smooth out the costs associated with the risk of loss.

Proabably started with shipowners. They would pay into a mutual association [not a stock company] such as Lloyds of London. They would pay by the voyage or by the value of the cargo etc. If they had a loss, they would file a claim. If they didn’t have a loss, they considered themselves lucky to have gotten off.

It spread to other kinds of potential losses. Life insurance. Fire insurance.

If the losses exceeded the pool of money available, then the partners in the mutual insurance pool would have to dig into their own pockets to come up with the money to make up the losses.

Some years there were few losses and other years there were heavy losses.

Medical insurance works the exact same way.

Absolutely NO difference.

If a ship owner was allowed to not take out insurance or to NOT join the pool until
AFTER he had a loss, then the insurance pool would almost immediately go bankrupt; under those conditions there just wouldn’t be enough money to pay the claims.

Medical insurance is exactly the same.

Absolutely no difference.

There is a certain tyranny to math. Maybe that’s why people hate studying math. Because there is no give and take; no negotiation.

When the money runs out, you are out of Schlitz. Broke.

People don’t like math for that very reason.

If you borrow too much money on your credit cards, and you can’t make the payments, then you are screwed. But it’s not the credit card company’s fault. It’s THEIR money that you borrowed. YOU borrowed it; YOU have to pay it back.

Insurance and borrowing are all part of the same package … it is all math.

Somebody once told me that it’s just a bunch of numbers. But the numbers represent REAL MONEY that belongs to someone else.

It has to be paid back.

 

[cecilia97]

Many insurance companies [if they are stock companies] publish annual and quarterly reports and you can get them by calling and asking. You can also look them up on Yahoo Finance.

Greedy selfish insurance companies cannot just take their ball and go home.

They have to invest the premiums they collect and use the income to pay claims.

An insurance company is not a welfare agency.

The way an insurance company works is that a bunch of people get together and pool their money to try to smooth out the costs associated with the risk of loss.

Proabably started with shipowners. They would pay into a mutual association [not a stock company] such as Lloyds of London. They would pay by the voyage or by the value of the cargo etc. If they had a loss, they would file a claim. If they didn’t have a loss, they considered themselves lucky to have gotten off.

It spread to other kinds of potential losses. Life insurance. Fire insurance.

If the losses exceeded the pool of money available, then the partners in the mutual insurance pool would have to dig into their own pockets to come up with the money to make up the losses.

Some years there were few losses and other years there were heavy losses.

Medical insurance works the exact same way.

Absolutely NO difference.

If a ship owner was allowed to not take out insurance or to NOT join the pool until
AFTER he had a loss, then the insurance pool would almost immediately go bankrupt; under those conditions there just wouldn’t be enough money to pay the claims.

Medical insurance is exactly the same.

Absolutely no difference.

There is a certain tyranny to math. Maybe that’s why people hate studying math. Because there is no give and take; no negotiation.

When the money runs out, you are out of Schlitz. Broke.

People don’t like math for that very reason.

If you borrow too much money on your credit cards, and you can’t make the payments, then you are screwed. But it’s not the credit card company’s fault. It’s THEIR money that you borrowed. YOU borrowed it; YOU have to pay it back.

Insurance and borrowing are all part of the same package … it is all math.

Somebody once told me that it’s just a bunch of numbers. But the numbers represent REAL MONEY that belongs to someone else.

It has to be paid back.

:clapping: BRAVO!