Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

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Because you take “aided free will” and God’s universal salvific will to mean universalism. Christ, however, said that He is the vine and we are the branches. Whatever branch in Him bears fruit, the Father will prune to bear more fruit, but the one that does not bear fruit will be cut off and wither. Outside of Christ, that is, without grace, we can do nothing of any eternal value, but that does not contradict the position that God gives grace to all, enabling them to act, and to those who respond positively to grace, He gives more grace, but those who spurn grace will lose it.
 
So are you trying to say that God creates some people knowing they will never accept his grace ever even given a billion opportunities to do so? Is that God not defeating himself as he is creating someone he knows will never accept him?
 
How does “God desires all be saved” and “God creates some who He knows will not be saved” not make God a bit of an idiot? I see absolutely no point in creating souls that won’t be saved if you know beforehand and you have the power to carry out your desire.
 
He theoretically gives them a certain number of chances and after say 2345 chances he will pardon no more sins, at least that was St Alphonsus Liguori’s opinion where he wrote a sermon on how God will only pardon so many sins.
 
oliver109 said:
He theoretically gives them a certain number of chances and after say 2345 chances he will pardon no more sins, at least that was St Alphonsus Liguori’s opinion where he wrote a sermon on how God will only pardon so many sins.
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As far as I’m aware, there is no cap on forgiveness according to the Church. Saints may be holy but they are fallible.
 
That cap has traditionally been called death but the church has never explained about why post mortem repentance is not theoretically possible.
 
oliver109 said:
That cap has traditionally been called death but the church has never explained about why post mortem repentance is not theoretically possible.
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After death, the soul is immediately called to make a decision. If one chooses hell, the grace that allows one to repent is taken away because the soul finally chose no God. That’s why one cannot repent. They don’t have the grace to do so.

This occurs at death.
 
The Catholic encyclopedia said that God could extend the time of trial beyond death if he so wished so we could have a new life beyond death to repent if this life we failed in that duty.
 
Is that not a form of spiritual death? Interesting points though, I was not particularly aware of this. Good discussion, as always.
 
Search Catholic encyclopedia Hell can’t post a link easily on this device
 
Julius_Caesar said:
That’s the Angel of the Lord, not God.
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Regarding God testing Abraham in Genesis 22, there are two possibilities:
  1. The “angel” that speaks to Abraham is not speaking on his own behalf but is relaying the words of God.
  2. Some Bible scholars believe the “angel” is Christ, because he speaks as if he is God himself.
In verse 12 the angel says, “now I know that you fear God, and have not spared your only begotten son for my sake.” For whose “sake”? … for the angel’s “sake”? No, not if the “angel” is just a creature - it is for God’s “sake”.

That the angel is not speaking the words of God is even more obvious in verses 15-18:

“And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, saying: [16] By my own self have I sworn, saith the Lord: because thou hast done this thing, and hast not spared thy only begotten son for my sake: [17] I will bless thee, and I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, and as the sand that is by the sea shore: thy seed shall possess the gates of their enemies. [18] And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because thou hast obeyed my voice."

Therefore, either way (1 or 2), when the “angel” says, “now I know that you fear God”, it is obviously God speaking.
 
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Mmarco said:
I strongly disagree with your interpretations of Scripture and your ideas are contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church. From the Catholic Encyclopedia: That God knows infallibly and from eternity what, for example, a certain man, in the exercise of free will, will do or actually does in any given circumstances, and what he might or would actually have done in different circumstances is beyond doubt — being a corollary from the eternal actuality of Divine knowledge. So to speak, God has not to wait on the contingent and temporal event of the man’s free choice to know what the latter’s action will be; He knows it from eternity.
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Thanks very much for bringing that to my attention; it has changed my point of view and I thank you for correcting and enlightening me.

I accept what that passage says as a Church teaching, but I am wondering how it can be reconciled with Genesis 22:12, in which God says “now I know that you fear God”, which seems to imply that God did not know if Abraham would pass the test (of offering his son, Isaac, as a sacrifice) until after he actually passed the test.
 
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Okay, but the word “now” in “now I know” implies that God did not know something about Abraham before the test, which God did know after the test.

Perhaps it is not wise to read such a verse too literally.
 
Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman said:
How does “God desires all be saved” and “God creates some who He knows will not be saved” not make God a bit of an idiot? I see absolutely no point in creating souls that won’t be saved if you know beforehand and you have the power to carry out your desire.
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The point is that through the souls who won’t be saved, against their own intentions, God can lead more souls to heaven.
In fact, he fear of damnation in Hell may have a role in men’s choice to abandon sin, expecially when they are still much involved in sin. This is the reason why Christ tells us that Hell exists and that many will go to Hell (see Matthew 7:13, for example); since God never lies, He created also the souls who will go to Hell. If God had not created the souls who will go to Hell, fewer souls would have gone to heaven because the fear of eternal damnation induces some souls to choose to cooperate with God’s grace, so that God can save them.
 
Julius_Caesar said:
Or the fact that God clearly says He knows who’s names are written in the book of Life before the world was created when you and Gorgias deny this.
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No, I don’t. I’m asserting that He knows, once He commits to creation, but not ‘before’. (Not in a strictly temporal sense, of course, since we’re talking about eternity.)
Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman said:
And how can God know anything “before” anything else? Time is a construct of the universe, and God is not subject to it.
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Agreed. However, I’m not talking about temporal ordering, but metaphysical ordering. In other words, what must happen in order that other things happen. God must commit to the act of creation in order for the act of creation to occur. In this series, until God commits, I assert, He does not know the fate of souls that aren’t yet assured of existing. Having committed to the act of creation, He does know.
Mmarco said:
God’s knowledge does not depend on the act of creation (in fact, what happens before does not depend on what happens after); therefore, God has always known eternally the souls who go to heaven, independently from the act of creation of the universe.
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Then you’re claiming that God creates in order to condemn.
Julius_Caesar said:
He says He knows before the foundation of the world.
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That doesn’t imply that the “foundation of the world” doesn’t have any dependencies.
 
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