Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

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Mmarco said:
Au contraire, as I have explained many times, I am claiming that God creates in order to save as many souls as possible.
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Yeah, except that the numbers don’t work, and it doesn’t get away from the consequence that God creates, knowing that He’s creating souls condemned to hell.
 
Gorgias said:
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Mmarco:
Au contraire, as I have explained many times, I am claiming that God creates in order to save as many souls as possible.
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Yeah, except that the numbers don’t work, and it doesn’t get away from the consequence that God creates, knowing that He’s creating souls condemned to hell.
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I can only point out that you have raised no valid arguments against my statements.
God is omniscinet and there is no doubt that He creates souls knowing that they will freely choose evil and therefore go to Hell, but this is not the purpose why He creates them, as I have clearly explained.
 
Mmarco said:
I can only point out that you have raised no valid arguments against my statements.
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I did precisely that! 🤣

Your argument against the assertion that “God creates souls whom He knows will be condemned to hell” doesn’t work for two reasons:
  • By creating a soul whom He knows as condemned, He doesn’t increase the number of souls that attain to heaven. (Your argument that “well, maybe that condemned person would have had a salutory effect on another person” isn’t an argument, but just unsubstantiated – and unable to be substantiated! – wishful thinking.)
  • By creating a soul whom He knows as condemned, you are actually agreeing with the thought that God creates merely to condemn.
Mmarco said:
this is not the purpose why He creates them
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Immaterial to the objection. Are you really claiming double effect here? That’s untenable, especially given that the “undesired effect” is the eternal punishment of a person in hell.
 
Gorgias said:
Your argument against the assertion that “God creates souls whom He knows will be condemned to hell” doesn’t work for two reasons:
  • By creating a soul whom He knows as condemned, He doesn’t increase the number of souls that attain to heaven.
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This is only your opinion. I think He does. As I have said, we may only agree to disagree.
Gorgias said:
  • By creating a soul whom He knows as condemned, you are actually agreeing with the thought that God creates merely to condemn.
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Wrong,.Since I believe that by creating those souls who will freely choose evil, God encreases the number of saved souls, it follows that I believe that the purpose why God creates them is to save more souls.
 
Mmarco said:
This is only your opinion. I think He does.
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So, you realize that your assertion is “only your opinion”, right? 😉
Mmarco said:
it follows that I believe that the purpose why God creates them is to save more souls.
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Yeah, but you have to follow that logic to its natural conclusion: God is creating people, in order to condemn them, so that others He creates might be saved. You’re literally positing that God is “throwing people into hell”. That’s not morally tenable. In fact, it’s downright evil. (That’s why your opinion doesn’t hold up to scrutiny – you’re positing an evil God.)
 
Gorgias said:
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Mmarco:
This is only your opinion. I think He does.
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So, you realize that your assertion is “only your opinion”, right? 😉
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Of course! I have said this very clearly also in my first post here in this thread.
Gorgias said:
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Mmarco:
it follows that I believe that the purpose why God creates them is to save more souls.
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Yeah, but you have to follow that logic to its natural conclusion: God is creating people, in order to condemn them, so that others He creates might be saved. You’re literally positing that God is “throwing people into hell”. That’s not morally tenable. In fact, it’s downright evil. (That’s why your opinion doesn’t hold up to scrutiny – you’re positing an evil God.)
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This is again only your opinion. I think that my position is absolutely morally teneable.
I think that your ideas about God are absolutely untenable, since you posit a god unable to choose not to create souls who will go to Hell. This is absolutely incompatible with the idea of omnipotent God of the christian faith.
 
Mmarco said:
This is again only your opinion. I think that my position is absolutely morally teneable.
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No, actually, it’s based on the teaching of “double effect”.
Mmarco said:
I think that your ideas about God are absolutely untenable, since you posit a god unable to choose not to create souls who will go to Hell.
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“Unable to choose not to create souls who will go to hell”? And your position is that “able to choose to create souls who must go to hell” is better? You might claim that this fits the bill for “omniscient”, but it certainly misses the mark for “omnibenevolent”!!!
 
Mmarco said:
I am claiming that God creates in order to save as many souls as possible.
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And if God knows our souls before creation, then God is a buffoon for not simply creating every soul with the end destination of heaven. Period. God desires all be saved, so to carry out that desire, He should create souls that would be saved. Otherwise, again, he’s stupid.
Julius_Caesar said:
Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
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I’m free to logically observe and analyze the actions of God and see a discrepancy that can’t be solved.
Mmarco said:
This is absolutely incompatible with the idea of omnipotent God of the christian faith.
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No it isn’t! God cannot know that which does not exist! If you’re right, and God knows the fate of man even before (metaphysically) they exist, then God should know the side lengths of square circles or how to make rocks He can’t lift, which disproves God’s omnipotence. It’s you who denies doctrine, not us.
 
Gorgias said:
“Unable to choose not to create souls who will go to hell”? And your position is that “able to choose to create souls who must go to hell” is better? You might claim that this fits the bill for “omniscient”, but it certainly misses the mark for “omnibenevolent”!!!
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I disagree. The souls who go to Hell freely choose evil and therefore they are fully responsible for their eternal death. God is absolutely omnibenevolent since He wants to save as many souls as possible.

As I said, you posit a god totally unable to choose to create only souls who will go to heaven, and this is absolutely incompatible with the idea of omnipotent God of the christian faith.
Sincerely, I hope one day you may understand how far you are from the Truth…
 
Mmarco said:
God is absolutely omnibenevolent since He wants to save as many souls as possible.
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If you’re right, he has a really bad way of going about it.

I mean, think about it. God, in your view, is fully capable of realizing only souls which, by their own relationships with God and His grace, will be saved. If God desires all be saved, why not only realize those souls? Why self-defeat by willingly realizing souls who cannot be saved because of their choices in life? It just doesn’t make any sense.
Mmarco said:
As I said, you posit a god totally unable to choose to create only souls who will go to heaven,
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Because there’s no fate of a soul without that soul to carry out that fate!
Mmarco said:
and this is absolutely incompatible with the idea of omnipotent God of the christian faith.
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No it is not. God does not need to know that which cannot exist to be omnipotent, unless you think that He knows many other things about logical impossibility which, again, makes no sense at all.
 
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So then God does not make them with the foreknowledge that they will rebel, but instead knows that when such a reality is realized.

There is no possible explanation that makes God not a total self-defeating fool if He knows that the soul He is going to create will not choose Him and goes ahead with it.
 
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Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman said:
There is no possible explanation that makes God not a total self-defeating fool if He knows that the soul He is going to create will not choose Him and goes ahead with it.
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This is where I feel I may begin to disagree. For: "One could say that a will free to choose or reject God would never be guaranteed to go one route over the other due to the nature of free will. As such, even those that may not choose to reject good still could reject it, and are therefore not guaranteed to stay in choosing good.

“But God knows all, and therefore can see all in the future as well as the present and past with perfect clarity; as such, he could just create those who he already knows never reject him. But perhaps to limit creation on the basis of the actions that one may take might be something which isn’t good, for it might be similar to punishing a man for a crime he has yet to commit (for example, executing child Hitler for crimes he did not commit is something not necessarily good, therefore it can be bad. Therefore, it might be that punishing before the thing punishable happens is bad). As such, we may say that God is obligated to not limit creation on the basis of the choices said created would take in the future, for it would be like punishment for what has not even occured. As such, it isn’t necessarily true that God could simply not create those who would reject him.”

“Not “may take” - “will take” according to omniscience. I did not suggest execution, merely lack of creation. And that cannot be viewed as “punishment”. It would be prevention. Someone who does not exist, cannot be punished.”

“So, a couple of things I’d like to say in response: one, the distinction between “may” and “will” is irrelevant here (though I understand the clarification), as the point of the matter is that there is a lack of action which is detrimental to a being on the basis of some decision they have not even taken yet; and detrimental action driven by consequence towards a being may be seen as something like “punishment”, yes? As such, a being who has not yet had the opportunity to act in a way deserving of punishment is being punished for what they have not done; that punishment being in the form of a prevention of their existence. But executing a man is also preventing them of further existence (even if only bodily). Therefore, God, if choosing on the basis of consequence to create a being or not, would be in all practicality punishing men for crimes they have not yet commited by ceasing their possibility for existence. Some may call this unjust and therefore bad which would be in contridction to the good; as thus, if an all good God exists he cannot simply create men who would not reject him.”
 
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