Why does God create souls he know will wind up in hell?

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

On the contrary, your fate is not nonsensical, but it has always been possible and God has always known eternally your fate as well as all your free choices.

But God cannot know the fate of someone who does not exist. There is no fate that exists for them because they did not exist to carry it out.

i think I have already answered this many times. This conversation has become too repetitive and therefore it is only a waste of time.

I’ll stop here

 

[Julius_Caesar]

I as well. 0123456789

 

[Mmarco]

God sort of automatically does best possible thing and He can’t even not do it.

While a totally agree with the idea of divine simplicity, I strongly disagree with your rephrasing it as “God sort of automatically does best possible thing” which pictures God as a robot.
In fact, we cannot exclude that there isn’t a single best possible thing, but there may be many equally good options and God freely chooses.
Of course, our language is always inappropriate since we cannot describe norconceive what God is in His essence.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

i think I have already answered this many times.

I as well.

Neither one of you actually answered my inquiries, and proceeded to act like non-answers were sufficient.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Neither one of you actually answered my inquiries, and proceeded to act like non-answers were sufficient.

One would ask whether you made legit inquiries.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

One would ask whether you made legit inquiries.

I was asking questions directly related to the things you were talking about. How did I not make legitimate inquiries?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

In fact, we cannot exclude that there isn’t a single best possible thing, but there may be many equally good options and God freely chooses.

Interesting point. However, how would then God choose?

Of course, our language is always inappropriate since we cannot describe norconceive what God is in His essence.

Agreed. I am quite intrigued by most points made in this discussion. In the end I believe most make sense- being more about aided free will or more in lines of Molinism. They were declared to be legitimate by the Church anyway.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

There was no “Before” because time starts at the start of creation.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Are we sure that means time in a literal sense? Since God is outside time, I don’t think He waited around for Earth to be formed before creating and placing men on Earth.

My main issue with the idea that God knows the soul before creation is that creation and conception in God’s mind are not different. They can’t be. The idea that God has foreknowledge is wrong because God sees all at once, everything has yet to happen, is happening, and has happened at once.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

My understanding is that it appears that He knows the future from our frame of reference, but that’s because for Him, it has already happened.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Thank you for the citations!

 

[oliver109]

So you could say that Thomism is probably the more correct view as Molinism reduces God’s omnipotence? Though Molinism seems to be taught more in churches today as Thomism can leave people in the cold a bit because it implies that God only saves those whom he has chosen.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

because it implies that God only saves those whom he has chosen.

And it is dogma that God desires all be saved, not only a select few.

 

[oliver109]

To put it simply God is happy whether 20% of humanity or 100% of humanity is saved. God will shed no tears on the last day over the damned, at least not if you take St Thomas Aquinas View of salvation.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

If we look at Church history, Augustine is the only Father that espouses anything close to Thomism.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

I lean more towards the Greek Fathers when surveying the topic. It simply makes sense. What’s striking though, is the fact that they never use middle knowledge.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Pardon?

You heard me.

And it left me scratching my head, so I’m asking for clarification. Who’s the “she”? And what’s up with the assertion that God isn’t omniscient?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

That’s an inference. And it’s referring to the person who’s saying God knows only the fate of those who are created.

 

[Mmarco]

Mmarco:

In fact, we cannot exclude that there isn’t a single best possible thing, but there may be many equally good options and God freely chooses.

Interesting point. However, how would then God choose?

I do not think that this is a legitimate question, because we cannot even conceive how God lives His out-of-time life.
We can however understand that God is free and He can freely choose. Of course these statements are to be interpreted analogically, like everything else we say about God.

 

[Gorgias]

That’s an inference. And it’s referring to the person who’s saying God knows only the fate of those who are created.

That would be me, then.

And, that – in and of itself – would be the definition of “omniscience”. That is, knowing all that was, is, and will be.

Of course, if you want to claim that God’s omniscience must include knowing the names of all the purple polka-dotted unicorns in the universe, then that’s up to you.