Why evolution doesnt matter.

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Why? You merely limit your understanding of how God creates and governs his creation by requiring a reference to evolution in the bible. Your criterion is unsound. I take it you also reject Einstein’s theory of general relativity because it is not in the bible. What about Mendelian genetics? What about Newton’s theory of optics? Or plate tectonics? Olber’s paradox? Cosmic red-shift? And so on, ad infinitum. You won’t find those ideas in the bible, either.

The bible is an authority, but private interpretation is not an authority. Private interpretation is unscriptural, as the bible itself says, no prophecy of scripture is for anyone’s private interpretation.

Are you familiar with St. Augustine’s commentary on Genesis? Augustine offered a theological notion of evolution involving the rationes seminales, since it was clear to him that a serious reading of Genesis does not support a literal creation in six days.

St. Thomas Aquinas said a direct creation in six days is favored by a superficial reading of Scripture.

Caution is good, but on what or whose authority do you determine which books have changed the word of God, and which books are reliable? And what is your authority for believing that the particular books which are in your bible are the inspired word of God?

Agreed
What this debate comes down to is a difference in worldviews, and the presuppositions formed through interpretations of biblical revelation and general observations. Acknowledging authority or not, we have both asserted our interpretations.
  • Genesis does not support a literal creation in six days.*
I believe the real issue here is that it doesn’t support your worldview of evolution, therefore you must interpret it differently, or find someone to do that for you whom you call an authority.
The bible is an authority, but private interpretation is not an authority. Private interpretation is unscriptural, as the bible itself says, no prophecy of scripture is for anyone’s private interpretation.
That in itself, I’m afraid, is an interpretation, which you made all by yourself and gave to me as authority. I do agree with this, as we were given the capacity to understand His word. We can always refute our brothers which biblically is know as sharpening.

I will continue to believe what I read in scripture, and sharpen myself with those who do the same. Once again, we will interpret according to our worldview. Is it biblical, or secular?

Ryan
 
Positing that a world view is either Biblical or secular is an artificial and false duality. Each of those alleged factions yet have their own contentious sub-classes, and many of those permeate the supposed distinction. Even so-called consensus, “approved,” imprimatured and nihil obstated of the over 100 versions of “The” Bible arrived in their form because of contentions over previous understandings of much therein. And, of course, many critics of certain interpretations from a secular view yet believe in the holiness of that book, as do I.

But the book, made of many books gathered, also contentiously, at one point as a compilation of many books is of paper and ink, and one has to ask from where comes its alleged authority? All those selections and translations were made from unoriginal copies by men who were in many instances of poor scholarship and excessive piety, and who likely had agendas. And the criteria were equally stringent: eg, there are four gospels because the church fathers agreed that that is a fitting number, since there are four winds, four directions and four corners of the earth, four seasons, etc. Excellent scholarship and piety, if you ask me.

There is also the question of where is one studying the bible from? As in the thread question, understanding of the Bible has “evolved.” Does one study the Bible piously from the inside, having made a faith commitment to a particular stream of consensus, or from the outside as a phenomenon of history, literature, and interpretive thought, or both? How many ordinary readers of the Bible, for instance, have considered such pertinent disciplines as anthropology, archeology, comparative linguistics and religion, theory of meaning, semantics, symbology, General Semantics, mythology, the natures of abstracting, witnessing, memory, collections, processes in the formation of groups and their interactions, the nature of belief itself relative to human psychology, integrational philosophy, communication theory, single and multi- level logics, etc, etc, etc?

Not many have, I wager, even taken a superficial course that includes these matters, as easy as it is to get a course book on such. Eg, here is a very simple exercise in translation. Below are four sentences in English. Can you come up with the exact meaning? The question is based on the fact that texts in Hebrew and Aramaic are written without vowels, punctuation, or capitalization and depend on context for the meanings of consonant groups. Try it:

1: THSSNXPRMNTNTHDCPHRNGFMSSG

2: THBBLFTHHBRWSWSWRTTNNTHSMNNRWTHTVWLSNDWTHTPNCTTNFNYKND

3: TSMSCLRTHTMNYRRRSFNTRPRTNCLDBMD

4: FRXMPLGDSNWHRCLDBNDRSTDBYSMNTBNSTDGDSNWHR

One might soon agree with Robert Ingersoll that it could take twice as much inspiration to read such text as to write it. And then, despite crediting earlier translators with devotion and piety, and knowing in more detail some technicalities of language, are we in our century yet familiar with words, idioms, and modes of thinking of the original writers of whose work we only have copies, some of them obviously altered? For my part, I have to ask myself: Am I devoted to theological ideas based on original perception, or on linguistic events that took place well after the fresh revelation?

Again, how many know that “rope” is in fact the preferred translation now of the consonant group GML, not “camel.” Also, in the story of Elijah, is RBM “Arabs,” “ravens,” or “the inhabitants of Oreb,” a village hard near where Elijah was ensconced on the brook of Cherith? The only sensical translation is now thought to be “the inhabitants of Oreb.” And two millenia of misogyny might be attributed to the mistranslation of TZD, which actually means “side,” not “rib” and all the implications ancient and modern that go with that.

These differences are predicated on the actual speaking of Aramaic as we now know it. A critical example to some points of faith is this one: where is the comma in Luke 28:43? Is it “Verily, I say unto you, today…”? Or is it “Verily, I say unto you today, …”? The second is the nuance preferred by native speakers of Aramaic in their idiom, changing a major point of “proof” theology. The Bible, all of the versions of it, are riddled with such considerations.

That last one hinges on a comma!!! Which wasn’t there! In Fresno, California, on May 5, 1969. a barber and another man shot each other to death over the true meaning of certain passages of the Bible. The true meaning!!! Is that the kind of piety and devotion we are at the level of here? Is that what we have evolved to? What an excellent recommendation for christianism.
 
The science book is not a theology book, and yes, there are contradictions. Please read part 64 of Communion and Stewardship, available at the vatican web site.

Peace,
Ed
The science that God created, not the science book, is my focus. The science book is obviously biased according to the authors’ worldview. Observable, measurable, repeatable testing will not contradict God’s word. We have not perfected our science, and therefore are constantly making faulty assumptions and conclusions to fit our views. How many missing links have been found to be authentic? Zero. And so will the new one.

Genesis1:5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there
was evening, and there was morning- the first day.

It doesn’t get any plainer than this. The bible mentions calendar events constantly, which is laid foundationally in Genesis. Jesus rose after the third day. No questions here.
Why? Because we accept that God can work miracles, and it is not threatening a world view which we are dearly holding on to. Genesis was a miracle too.
I don’t usually use the vatican website to resolve these issues, but would prefer keeping reference to scripture, as this must be our common truth.

Ryan
 
Positing that a world view is either Biblical or secular is an artificial and false duality. Each of those alleged factions yet have their own contentious sub-classes, and many of those permeate the supposed distinction. Even so-called consensus, “approved,” imprimatured and nihil obstated of the over 100 versions of “The” Bible arrived in their form because of contentions over previous understandings of much therein. And, of course, many critics of certain interpretations from a secular view yet believe in the holiness of that book, as do I.

But the book, made of many books gathered, also contentiously, at one point as a compilation of many books is of paper and ink, and one has to ask from where comes its alleged authority? All those selections and translations were made from unoriginal copies by men who were in many instances of poor scholarship and excessive piety, and who likely had agendas. And the criteria were equally stringent: eg, there are four gospels because the church fathers agreed that that is a fitting number, since there are four winds, four directions and four corners of the earth, four seasons, etc. Excellent scholarship and piety, if you ask me.

There is also the question of where is one studying the bible from? As in the thread question, understanding of the Bible has “evolved.” Does one study the Bible piously from the inside, having made a faith commitment to a particular stream of consensus, or from the outside as a phenomenon of history, literature, and interpretive thought, or both? How many ordinary readers of the Bible, for instance, have considered such pertinent disciplines as anthropology, archeology, comparative linguistics and religion, theory of meaning, semantics, symbology, General Semantics, mythology, the natures of abstracting, witnessing, memory, collections, processes in the formation of groups and their interactions, the nature of belief itself relative to human psychology, integrational philosophy, communication theory, single and multi- level logics, etc, etc, etc?

Not many have, I wager, even taken a superficial course that includes these matters, as easy as it is to get a course book on such. Eg, here is a very simple exercise in translation. Below are four sentences in English. Can you come up with the exact meaning? The question is based on the fact that texts in Hebrew and Aramaic are written without vowels, punctuation, or capitalization and depend on context for the meanings of consonant groups. Try it:

1: THSSNXPRMNTNTHDCPHRNGFMSSG

2: THBBLFTHHBRWSWSWRTTNNTHSMNNRWTHTVWLSNDWTHTPNCTTNFNYKND

3: TSMSCLRTHTMNYRRRSFNTRPRTNCLDBMD

4: FRXMPLGDSNWHRCLDBNDRSTDBYSMNTBNSTDGDSNWHR

One might soon agree with Robert Ingersoll that it could take twice as much inspiration to read such text as to write it. And then, despite crediting earlier translators with devotion and piety, and knowing in more detail some technicalities of language, are we in our century yet familiar with words, idioms, and modes of thinking of the original writers of whose work we only have copies, some of them obviously altered? For my part, I have to ask myself: Am I devoted to theological ideas based on original perception, or on linguistic events that took place well after the fresh revelation?

Again, how many know that “rope” is in fact the preferred translation now of the consonant group GML, not “camel.” Also, in the story of Elijah, is RBM “Arabs,” “ravens,” or “the inhabitants of Oreb,” a village hard near where Elijah was ensconced on the brook of Cherith? The only sensical translation is now thought to be “the inhabitants of Oreb.” And two millenia of misogyny might be attributed to the mistranslation of TZD, which actually means “side,” not “rib” and all the implications ancient and modern that go with that.

These differences are predicated on the actual speaking of Aramaic as we now know it. A critical example to some points of faith is this one: where is the comma in Luke 28:43? Is it “Verily, I say unto you, today…”? Or is it “Verily, I say unto you today, …”? The second is the nuance preferred by native speakers of Aramaic in their idiom, changing a major point of “proof” theology. The Bible, all of the versions of it, are riddled with such considerations.

That last one hinges on a comma!!! Which wasn’t there! In Fresno, California, on May 5, 1969. a barber and another man shot each other to death over the true meaning of certain passages of the Bible. The true meaning!!! Is that the kind of piety and devotion we are at the level of here? Is that what we have evolved to? What an excellent recommendation for christianism.
I believe in sufficiency of scripture, and that God’s word is unchanged and infallible. This I will continue to believe because it what we are commanded to do. Your method of argument in itself was never a position encouraged biblically, or by example of Jesus. We only have what God has revealed. Lets not tear this down.

Eliphaz speaks wisely to Job about his struggles to understand God’s will. Job 15/16.
Read this .

Ryan
 
Sola Scriptura, eegads! :eek:

The Protestants made off with the Catholic Bible, but didn’t even get all the books that are supposed to be included in the Bible, and then they presume to pontificate to Catholics on how to interpret Scripture.

Heck, they can’t even agree amongst themselves about interpretation, which is why there are a million Protestant denominations and millions of different non-denominational Protestant churches. (A little hyperbole there with the numbers, which won’t be understood anyway by the literalists. :p)

The Catholic Church has only one Pope, while the Protestants have jillions.

What a world we live in! 🤷
 
Yes, I read Elipaz’ admonition and Job’s answer. Did you read my post? Did you do the exercise? I agree with Eliphaz and therefor am not trying to “tear down” what God has revealed; I am trying to clarify what men, including you, have done to that revelation. Clearly something is amiss in this millenial game of “telephone,” don’t you see? I vastly recommend the sufficiency of revelation, but what has scripture to do with that?

And who were you commanded by? You, ultimately, are the last authority in your own life, if by no other means than by abdicating your mind and heart to a highly questionable tradition, a tradition questionable on its own grounds and through its own interpretations. As for my methodology of argument, I am not arguing, I am presenting known evidence about the nature of the interpretations of revelation as made by men and which you seem to choose to believe as direct. Your thought process reminds me of the woman who refused to learn a foreign language when she actually could have been greatly benefited thereby. She said in her own defense, “God writ the Bible in English, so that by itself is good enough for me!” Is that good enough for you, Ryan?

What in fact, do you perceive my “method of argumentation” to be? And if I was to accept the Bible as literal revelation, please, which version and whose interpretation do I look to? The Church even argues within itself as to the “true meaning.” Why do you think dogma and precepts have changed over the years? Or why there are continually new encyclicals? Are we not to think? And does that mean, then, that I blind myself to new scholarly and theological understandings as they surface? I cannot make God into a Judge who condemns sincere and simple inquiry, Ryan. Apparently you can, and I am sorry for that. I get the strong sense that you are avoiding something within yourself, something that causes you great fear for which you need an antidote. You are in my prayers.
 
Consequently to all of the above, yes, I agree with the OP that ‘evolution’ doesn’t matter.
Donsnow, evolution should matter to anyone who has contracted tuberculosis that has evolved resistance to multiple drugs. Understanding evolution could be a matter of life or death for such people.

StAnastasia
 
Ryan. Apparently you can, and I am sorry for that. I get the strong sense that you are avoiding something within yourself, something that causes you great fear for which you need an antidote. You are in my prayers.
Hello Detales,

What are doing? Trying to psycho-spiritual analyze posters? LOL

“Question your thoughts. Your unexamined mind is the source of your suffering.” 😛 --iternant1
 
StAnastasia

Phil Skell might not be a biochemist, but Michael Behe is. He accepts common descent too, but he argues in his book, The Edge of Evolution, there are built-in limits to how far undirected evolution can go. This is scientifically useful information, because it can help researchers design new drugs that would require microbes to mutate beyond their natural limits. See uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/behe-vs-mothra-no-mrsa/

By the way, Behe’s blog page (where he answers his critics in detail) is at behe.uncommondescent.com/

Best wishes,

Vincent
 
Ed, I see the battle continues unabated.

This question is off topic but I was wondering if you are a cradle Catholic or a convert?
I went to Catholic grade school and high school. Why do you ask?

Peace,
Ed
 
StAnastasia Phil Skell might not be a biochemist, but Michael Behe is. He accepts common descent too, but he argues in his book, The Edge of Evolution, there are built-in limits to how far undirected evolution can go. Best wishes,
Vincent
Vincent, what is “directed evolution,” and is there a way to test for it? Would this be a biochemical, a genetic, or a morphological test?

StAnastasia
 
Donsnow, evolution should matter to anyone who has contracted tuberculosis that has evolved resistance to multiple drugs. Understanding evolution could be a matter of life or death for such people.

StAnastasia
Hi! StAnastasia!😃

Funny, you should mention that. Not funny ‘ha-ha’ but funny coincidentally.(Yay! right clicking on the underlined word gives me choice of spellings, just like he told me.) OK, back to my reply.

Let me get the years straight. Yeah, in '92, my job at that time required me to get tested for TB. I tested positive. The hospital X-rayed my chest. There was a healed tubercular scar. It turns out, once a body’s had TB, it will always test positive for TB. They put me on a prophylactic, anyway. Good. I took it all six months, as ordered.
In 2000 I entered the VA medical system, upon discovering that my four years in the 'Corps almost forty years ago gave me admittance to the VA. The VA, among other things, X-rayed my chest. The X-ray showed two tubercular scars.

That is to say, I had and survived two different times an attack of tuberculosis; the first time before medication and the second time after staying on a prophylactic for the required six months, faithfully.

StAnastasia, the medicine did not save me from a strain of tuberculosis that recurred after the medication was administered and received as ordered. In my case, evolution of anti-biotics doesn’t matter, as demonstrated.

Dear StAnastasia, present TOE and what ever will be taught about origins in 300 years from now, are unlikely to resemble each other. That is to say, present evolutionary understanding is temporary. God is permanent. His powers are eternal. I’ll live as long as He wills, and not any longer; nor will I die until He wills. That has nothing to do with evolution. God matters more than evolution. Sic, evolution doesn’t matter…as much as God does.:tiphat:
 
Sola Scriptura, eegads! :eek:

The Protestants made off with the Catholic Bible, but didn’t even get all the books that are supposed to be included in the Bible, and then they presume to pontificate to Catholics on how to interpret Scripture.

Heck, they can’t even agree amongst themselves about interpretation, which is why there are a million Protestant denominations and millions of different non-denominational Protestant churches. (A little hyperbole there with the numbers, which won’t be understood anyway by the literalists. :p)

The Catholic Church has only one Pope, while the Protestants have jillions.

What a world we live in! 🤷
I thought this was an evolution debate. I never commented on our differing churches. I have views there as well, but that would be a different forum. One note, though, we have no pope, or higher authority who speaks infallably for us, except God Word (thank goodness) and the books not included ( apocrypha im assuming) were never included in the quotes of Jesus, which numbered over 200 from old T. I guess He forgot those books too.

Ryan
 
Yes, I read Elipaz’ admonition and Job’s answer. Did you read my post? Did you do the exercise? I agree with Eliphaz and therefor am not trying to “tear down” what God has revealed; I am trying to clarify what men, including you, have done to that revelation. Clearly something is amiss in this millenial game of “telephone,” don’t you see? I vastly recommend the sufficiency of revelation, but what has scripture to do with that?

And who were you commanded by? You, ultimately, are the last authority in your own life, if by no other means than by abdicating your mind and heart to a highly questionable tradition, a tradition questionable on its own grounds and through its own interpretations. As for my methodology of argument, I am not arguing, I am presenting known evidence about the nature of the interpretations of revelation as made by men and which you seem to choose to believe as direct. Your thought process reminds me of the woman who refused to learn a foreign language when she actually could have been greatly benefited thereby. She said in her own defense, “God writ the Bible in English, so that by itself is good enough for me!” Is that good enough for you, Ryan?

What in fact, do you perceive my “method of argumentation” to be? And if I was to accept the Bible as literal revelation, please, which version and whose interpretation do I look to? The Church even argues within itself as to the “true meaning.” Why do you think dogma and precepts have changed over the years? Or why there are continually new encyclicals? Are we not to think? And does that mean, then, that I blind myself to new scholarly and theological understandings as they surface? I cannot make God into a Judge who condemns sincere and simple inquiry, Ryan. Apparently you can, and I am sorry for that. I get the strong sense that you are avoiding something within yourself, something that causes you great fear for which you need an antidote. You are in my prayers.
Your prayers are always appreciated. I understood your exercise, but what you are doing is arguing that the Word can have many meanings, and change with different interpretations.
Why do you think dogma and precepts have changed over the years? Or why there are continually new encyclicals? Are we not to think?
These change because Man changes (…with every wind) and we always want to make things relevant for the times. Are we not capable of only evil in the absence of God?

If you were to back these specific arguments up with scripture, I would take them seriously. Your philisophical ramblings are weightless without scripture. Your thoughts cannot produce wisdom on their own, can they? I will pray for you too.

Ryan
 
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