Why God didn't desire a universe without evil?

[tonyrey]

The only evil that can exist is, itself, necessarily something apart from God, i.e. something in His creation. And in a sense the awful truth is that all creation, while good, is nonetheless evil relative to God, isn’t it, lacking His infinite perfection as it were? This aligns with the definition of evil as being a lesser good. And this makes sense of our need to be and remain in communion with God. ‘With Him all things are possible’: Matt 19:26; ‘Apart from Him we can do nothing’: John 15:5. So long as creation is partnered with, subjugated to, aligned in will with God, justice reigns. Man is living proof that without that connection, injustice easily can and will thrive.

“Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope.” Pope Benedict. Spe Salvi.

In his Compendium of Theology St Thomas wrote:

"This state [before the Fall] enjoyed by man depended on the submission of the human will to God. That man might be accustomed from the very beginning to follow God’s will, God laid certain precepts on him. Man was permitted to eat of all the trees in Paradise, with one exception: he was forbidden under pain of death to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eating of the fruit of this tree was prohibited, not because it was evil in itself, but that at least in this slight matter man might have some precept to observe for the sole reason that it was so commanded by God. Hence eating of the fruit of this tree was evil because it was forbidden. The tree was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not because it had the power to cause knowledge, but because of the sequel: by eating of it man learned by experience the difference between the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience.

The bolded part is particularly significant because it gives reason why the Fall of man might be of benefit. The more that we know of evil, and its contrast with good, the greater should be our desire to turn and run towards the good alone, meaning the more we recognize our need for God. The more we know goodness, the more we know God, and the more we know God the more we love God; it cannot be helped. And the more we love God the more justice is fulfilled in us, and the more obedience flows of its own accord.

In the end God takes a risk by creating, especially when free will is added into the mix, because He necessarily creates something less perfect that Himself. But the upshot is that His creation-us-may come, not without His help, to willingly align itself with His will, to come to see what He sees and knows, to choose and embrace justice for itself, to come to love Him with its whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, worshiping at His feet as it comes to truly recognize His incomparable goodness. Then justice is complete; then God’s universe is in order. Then evil is finally excluded. God allows us-His creation-to participate in this decision, in this exclusion, to participate in the exclusion of evil within itself to the degree that union with Him is achieved.

Life is far more complex than the sceptic realises. The objection that evil shouldn’t exist at all is as unrealistic as expecting to have light without shadows or perfection in a finite world. Our limited knowledge and intelligence inevitably entail failure and frustration. With the best of intentions we sometimes cause unintended suffering. We cannot expect to attain absolute perfection in this world but if we are motivated by love God’s grace enables us to become relatively perfect.

We are horrified by natural disasters and diabolical atrocities like the Holocaust but it is foolish to think we are capable of viewing them in the context of eternity. To believe innocent victims like children can never be compensated for what they had to endure amounts to condemning God for an unforgivable crime - as if we are infallible judges of what is right and just. That we can criticise and reject our Creator is a sign of the immense power He has given us. Jesus demonstrated evil and injustice can be transformed into a greater form of love which wouldn’t otherwise exist:

“O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem” - “O happy fault that earned for us so great, so glorious a Redeemer.”

He was completely innocent but He chose to be mocked, scourged and crucified to liberate us from our folly, weakness and ignorance. Suffering and death are not the worst of all evils because we shall all be reunited in heaven if we follow His example of self-sacrifice. God didn’t desire a universe without evil for the simple reason that there is no alternative if we are to share His power and be capable of perfect love. It is no accident that the greatest saints are the ones who suffered the most. Can we imagine the mental torture of Mary, the mother of Jesus, at the foot of the Cross? Yet her son was prepared to sacrifice her as well as Himself to liberate the entire human race from evil and despair…

 

[STT]

Exactly! Why SST cannot understand this is beyond me. You cannot have good without evil. How would you measure it?

I understand that. All I am talking about is the possibility of a universe which people always do good. Is it possible?

 

[STT]

Yes.

So a universe that people do always good is possible. Why God didn’t create that universe?

 

[STT]

There is a Jewish concept that G-d’s even thinking about something, creates it.

So You are saying that either God does not know evil or He is responsible for it?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I understand that. All I am talking about is the possibility of a universe which people always do good. Is it possible?

I don’t think so. Although I kept thinking God made the world and saw that it was good, that is until humanity came into the world and disobeyed his laws. Animals naturally obey the laws of nature, but humans always break them. Maybe if there was a world without humans, it could be good. Of course there would always be death and predation; I don’t know how you feel about those things on the spectrum of good and evil.

 

[goout]

The only evil that can exist is, itself, necessarily something apart from God, i.e. something in His creation. And in a sense the awful truth is that all creation, while good, is nonetheless evil relative to God, isn’t it, lacking His infinite perfection as it were? This aligns with the definition of evil as being a lesser good. And this makes sense of our need to be and remain in communion with God. ‘With Him all things are possible’: Matt 19:26; ‘Apart from Him we can do nothing’: John 15:5. So long as creation is partnered with, subjugated to, aligned in will with God, justice reigns. Man is living proof that without that connection, injustice easily can and will thrive.

“Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope.” Pope Benedict. Spe Salvi.

In his Compendium of Theology St Thomas wrote:

"This state [before the Fall] enjoyed by man depended on the submission of the human will to God. That man might be accustomed from the very beginning to follow God’s will, God laid certain precepts on him. Man was permitted to eat of all the trees in Paradise, with one exception: he was forbidden under pain of death to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eating of the fruit of this tree was prohibited, not because it was evil in itself, but that at least in this slight matter man might have some precept to observe for the sole reason that it was so commanded by God. Hence eating of the fruit of this tree was evil because it was forbidden. The tree was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not because it had the power to cause knowledge, but because of the sequel: by eating of it man learned by experience the difference between the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience.

The bolded part is particularly significant because it gives reason why the Fall of man might be of benefit. The more that we know of evil, and its contrast with good, the greater should be our desire to turn and run towards the good alone, meaning the more we recognize our need for God. The more we know goodness, the more we know God, and the more we know God the more we love God; it cannot be helped. And the more we love God the more justice is fulfilled in us, and the more obedience flows of its own accord.

In the end God takes a risk by creating, especially when free will is added into the mix, because He necessarily creates something less perfect that Himself. But the upshot is that His creation-us-may come, not without His help, to willingly align itself with His will, to come to see what He sees and knows, to choose and embrace justice for itself, to come to love Him with its whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, worshiping at His feet as it comes to truly recognize His incomparable goodness. Then justice is complete; then God’s universe is in order. Then evil is finally excluded. God allows us-His creation-to participate in this decision, in this exclusion, to participate in the exclusion of evil within itself to the degree that union with Him is achieved.

It’s important: good and evil are not opposite competing poles.
Good is not measured or conditioned by evil. Good is immeasurable, because The Good is God himself. God is beyond measure and needs nothing else in his goodness.

Evil is nothing. It is the creature’s experience of our own refusal and deprivation. It is not a thing that God created.

 

[meltzerboy]

So You are saying that either God does not know evil or He is responsible for it?

I am saying that G-d creates all that He acts upon and thinks about, including evil. This is what Genesis tells us. However, there is also the concept in Judaism that humans can create a HaSatan themselves through their own evil actions. The real Satan, however, is in the service of G-d as one who tests and tempts us, as well as the Angel of Death. He is not a rival of G-d’s, but rather a servant. This is not the Christian view.

 

[friardchips]

The idea behind this thread is that a universe without evil is possible. Why God didn’t want/desire to create that universe?

You can only answer this question if you understand what you mean by ‘evil’ which is what we have been trying to examine.

Respectfully, if you read and digest what has been put forward, you might then see how the citation begins to answer the question, so…

Please read and digest post #160 - directly underneath the Wiki link - to do with St. Augustine’s theory and see how it can help to answer.

If you still can’t see how it relates to the thread question after analyzing it again then let me know. And I will respond.

 

[STT]

I don’t think so. Although I kept thinking God made the world and saw that it was good, that is until humanity came into the world and disobeyed his laws. Animals naturally obey the laws of nature, but humans always break them. Maybe if there was a world without humans, it could be good. Of course there would always be death and predation; I don’t know how you feel about those things on the spectrum of good and evil.

God is responsible for evil if acting always good is impossible.

 

[STT]

I am saying that G-d creates all that He acts upon and thinks about, including evil. This is what Genesis tells us. However, there is also the concept in Judaism that humans can create a HaSatan themselves through their own evil actions. The real Satan, however, is in the service of G-d as one who tests and tempts us, as well as the Angel of Death. He is not a rival of G-d’s, but rather a servant. This is not the Christian view.

Interesting.

 

[goout]

God is responsible for evil if acting always good is impossible.

God doesn’t just act good “always”. Always is meaningless here, as if God is subject to the passing of time to demonstrate his goodness. That’s merely our experience of the matter.

God is The Good: the summation of it, the source of it, the pure essence of it. Pick your own inadequate expression if those fail you.
That innocuous little word “is” is very important in Christian theology.

 

[friardchips]

I am saying that G-d creates all that He acts upon and thinks about, including evil. This is what Genesis tells us. However, there is also the concept in Judaism that humans can create a HaSatan themselves through their own evil actions. The real Satan, however, is in the service of G-d as one who tests and tempts us, as well as the Angel of Death. He is not a rival of G-d’s, but rather a servant. This is not the Christian view.

Would this view be based on the story of Job? (As Catholics, we don’t, as far as I know, believe this story to be a real account).

I don’t how it can be viable considering that Genesis came first or is it that Genesis is not thought to be a real account?

 

[tee_eff_em]

No, but it was sure for God that people in this universe would do evil.

Then we are at an impasse.

It is plain to me that God created this universe without evil.
It is plain to you that God created this universe with evil.

I got nothin’.

tee

 

[friardchips]

It’s important: good and evil are not opposite competing poles.

Right.

Good is not measured or conditioned by evil. Good is immeasurable, because The Good is God himself. God is beyond measure and needs nothing else in his goodness.

Right.

Evil is nothing. It is the creature’s experience of our own refusal and deprivation. It is not a thing that God created.

Right. Although ‘nothing’ might not be exact. Philosophically it might sound okay. Evil has no power in itself is not to say that evil does not generate a force. Not of its own power but rather momentum in another askew direction.

 

[friardchips]

To quote another poster:

‘"This state [before the Fall] enjoyed by man depended on the submission of the human will to God. That man might be accustomed from the very beginning to follow God’s will, God laid certain precepts on him. Man was permitted to eat of all the trees in Paradise, with one exception: he was forbidden under pain of death to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eating of the fruit of this tree was prohibited, not because it was evil in itself, but that at least in this slight matter man might have some precept to observe for the sole reason that it was so commanded by God. Hence eating of the fruit of this tree was evil because it was forbidden. The tree was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not because it had the power to cause knowledge, but because of the sequel: by eating of it man learned by experience the difference between the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience.’

It was not the Fall itself that caused man’s freedom - that he was then able to understand evil and so understand what good is in comparison - but rather the ongoing reality of a tree on which fruit grew that humankind should not partake, and this would teach obedience. IOW, evil (disobedience) could be taught via keeping disobedience in the abstract form (in mind as merely a possible idea that one could partake and not that one is okay to do so) without the person needing to give in. Satan was a pre-fall consequence because of his own fall from Heaven. So the important sentence in the above quote is actually this: in bold.

Of course, this goes even deeper, if people knew what the ‘fruit’ actually represented.

 

[goout]

God is responsible for evil if acting always good is impossible.

Why?
I challenged this assumption in the second post of the thread and you are not addressing it.
Why is God responsible (accountable?) for the refusal of others to love him?

 

[fhansen]

As I see it, in this life, as opposed to Eden, man literally *knows *evil-by experience. We know firsthand what the effective absence of God means, as that absence or deprivation is “operable” in this world and in ourselves-and so we know the consequences of disunion with Him viscerally, directly, regardless of whether or not we believe He exists. This world is replete with moral evil in one way or another, not to mention physical evil, alongside of the goodness of creation all around. God will not restrain man’s freedom -or the abuse of that freedom- He asks us to restrain ourselves; but first of all by coming to see the need for restraint-becoming aware of and convicted of sin- and then turning to and working with Him to actually accomplish that restraint within ourselves, or, putting it more correctly and fully, to be *justified-*and then to become more “justified still” as per Trent.

And this, incidentally, can only begin with faith, as our response to grace, to God’s initiation. With faith we finally acknowledge God’s existence and our need for Him. And, “without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” Heb 11:6 This faith is where communion is first established; this reverses the disobedience and disunion within us that Adam initiated for humankind.

 

[tonyrey]

God is responsible for evil if acting always good is impossible.

Illogical! It is ridiculous to expect persons with limited knowledge and intelligence to do what is right all the time and never make a mistake.:tsktsk:

 

[Vico]

There is a Jewish concept that G-d’s even thinking about something, creates it.

As the Greeks held that a though, in so far as it exists, is a kind of being, so thoughts are things. I remember my philosophy teacher giving us that lesson.

 

[truetofaith]

I understand that. All I am talking about is the possibility of a universe which people always do good. Is it possible?

Not with the devil tempting them!

BTW…Lucifer wasn’t evil, he just wanted to be like God and went his own way, opposite of God’s Will.
He now tries to entice humans to go against God…we call that evil.

God didn’t create evil…His creations choose not to obey God.