Why God didn't desire a universe without evil?

[STT]

I think we are at a stage beyond where we were - this is better than making blanket statements.

‘Property’ is an interesting word to use because it denotes a scientific element.

Go back to when you answered “darkness” after I put forward the question as being in relation to light. Before I said, “what is darkness, spiritually”. On any level or dimension, why is there darkness when we know there is light? What is darkness, in relation to light?

Darkness I think according to your system is lack of light.

 

[STT]

Huh.

I disagree, and believe the Church disagrees as well. Did you, yourself, not assert:

So I would ask again: Is the Devil resistible or irresistible?

And, in case you wish a preview of where I am heading with this, I think you are sounding like Adam in the garden, who (contrary to a popular assertion) did not point the finger at Eve, rather he blamed God himself.

"The woman, whom thou gavest me to be my companion, gave me of the tree, and I did eat."
The Devil, whom you put in this universe, and who is irresistible, tempted me to evil.

I think that is not a wise position to take. :nope:

PS.

Yes, Devil is resistible.

I do not agree.

tee

Why?

 

[reggieM]

So do those in Heaven not have freewill? Are they less free than when they were on earth and subject to temptation?

Having the possibility of losing salvation is a lesser good - but necessary in a temporal universe. In that sense, the freedom to choose sin is less good than not having that freedom.

We’re good Americans so we like to think that freedom of choice is the highest possible good thing we could have. But no.

God is not free to sin. Because sin is a denial of His own Being - it is impossible for Him to deprive Himself of Being.

God is only free to do good.

Hey! See??? God is not free!!! God can’t make a stone so heavy that he can’t pick it up. So God doesn’t exist after all!

 

[fhansen]

So do those in Heaven not have freewill? Are they less free than when they were on earth and subject to temptation?

Those in heaven have realized the ultimate good-there’s nothing more to desire-they have no reason to choose anything less.

 

[friardchips]

I disagree, and believe the Church disagrees as well. Did you, yourself, not assert:

Just to interject briefly, as I have enough posts to respond to. In response to those challenging Dogmas or any infallible utterings, it is worth using the Church’s stance to tell the person that they are not thinking in line with the Church. To set the path straight. But please remember that we are part of the Church, too, and that the saints who questioned and reasoned, helped to give us grounding for further exploration, which is not only a good idea, but could be considered a duty, and had they never done so, we might never have had much of what we know to go by, today. We are to respect the saints but this does not mean we cannot question and seek to further our understanding, and if necessary, to “boldly go where no…Catholic…has gone before”. I am not saying that this is what we are doing here, but any process in place, if done with true intentions, can lead people to a deeper truth, and taking things further is always a possibility, and that is okay, and I would consider this as acting with the ‘Mind of the Church’ (in this area of application) As long as we are not being heterodox, are not going against Dogmas and infallible teachings. The point with Dogmas is that they can light the way for such questions. They are not dead articles of faith. They are divinely inspired and active and as such are not limited in what they can shine light onto.

 

[friardchips]

Those in heaven have realized the ultimate good-there’s nothing more to desire-they have no reason to choose anything less.

Can God do evil?

So, are people in Heaven, ‘free’?

Do we not still have individual wills in Heaven?

 

[TK421]

Going by this logic, then, someone who is truly free, is only free because they can do evil?
And it is the ‘necessary’ option of evil that makes one truly free?
With this logic, the devil is good, yes? And temptation is required? The devil’s abode is not Hell?

A creature incapable of doing evil would be an amoral creature: they would be naturally good but not supernaturally good. They are always naturally good since they were created, and since creation comes from God it is always naturally good.

Something that is supernaturally good means that it chose goodness.

The devil was created with the capacity to be supernaturally good. As we know from revelation, he is not supernaturally good but instead supernaturally evil. Something that is supernaturally evil means that it chose evil. Because the devil is supernaturally evil, that means his rightful place is in hell.

The devil is naturally good because he was created by God. Natural goodness is a characteristic that is not chosen. Anything that is created is naturally good because it comes from God. There is no such thing as something that is evil by nature, or, something that is ‘naturally evil’. There is natural good, supernatural good, and supernatural evil, but there is no such thing as natural evil.

Adam and Eve, if Satan had not tempted them, would, essentially, not be ‘free’ in Paradise?

So, God did not cast them out of Paradise?

They were free from the instant of their creation.

There are two types of temptation. External temptation and internal temptation. External temptation comes from an outside source. Internal temptation comes from within. Without Satan, it would still be within Adam & Eve’s capacity as supernatural creatures to reject God. Satan & his angels were not externally tempted because they were the first sinners.

God cast them out of Paradise in the sense that he was the enforcer of Divine Justice. Their rightful place was no longer in paradise. The responsible party for them being cast out was themselves.

 

[goout]

Can God do evil?

God cannot be anything less than good.

So, are people in Heaven, ‘free’?

People in heaven are free and they are united perfectly with the will of God, and in perfect freedom they…live in a way we cannot comprehend. Language is going to fail us here.

Do we not still have individual wills in Heaven?

In heaven each unique person is unified with the whole. I don’t know how the word “individual” would apply to the beatific life, which is perfect communion in God.
Individualism is waaay overrated.

 

[goout]

Darkness I think according to your system is lack of light.

This is true and another way of analogizing good/evil.
Darkness is not a thing, it is a lack of a thing. We experience it as something, but in reality the lightwaves are missing and not reaching our eyes, and so we name it darkness.

*It is a good thing that our experiences do not determine the fullness of what is real. *

 

[truetofaith]

Evil: profoundly immoral and malevolent.

Evil is going against the will of God!
First, the angel Lucifer went against God by not wanting to serve Him, so he was cast to the earth with the angels who followed him.
Second, Adam & Eve went against God by disobeying His command of not eating from the Tree of Knowledge…

On & on from there…

 

[friardchips]

God cannot be anything less than good.

People in heaven are free and they are united perfectly with the will of God, and in perfect freedom they…live in a way we cannot comprehend. Language is going to fail us here.

Right.

In heaven each unique person is unified with the whole. I don’t know how the word “individual” would apply to the beatific life, which is perfect communion in God.
Individualism is waaay overrated.

I don’t mean individualism. Unique is a better word than ‘individual’, granted.

 

[fhansen]

Can God do evil?

So, are people in Heaven, ‘free’?

Do we not still have individual wills in Heaven?

God cannot do evil, and we continue to have free will in heaven. But we are created beings, and created with a desire for a happiness that can only be obtained to the extent that we’re in direct contact with the ultimate good, God, Himself. Then we simply will nothing else.

 

[Bookcat]

What makes you think he didn’t?

Indeed the intent is a universe with* love*…which requires freedom.

 

[reggieM]

Just to interject briefly, as I have enough posts to respond to. In response to those challenging Dogmas or any infallible utterings, it is worth using the Church’s stance to tell the person that they are not thinking in line with the Church. To set the path straight. But please remember that we are part of the Church, too, and that the saints who questioned and reasoned, helped to give us grounding for further exploration, which is not only a good idea, but could be considered a duty, and had they never done so, we might never have had much of what we know to go by, today. We are to respect the saints but this does not mean we cannot question and seek to further our understanding, and if necessary, to “boldly go where no…Catholic…has gone before”. I am not saying that this is what we are doing here, but any process in place, if done with true intentions, can lead people to a deeper truth, and taking things further is always a possibility, and that is okay, and I would consider this as acting with the ‘Mind of the Church’ (in this area of application) As long as we are not being heterodox, are not going against Dogmas and infallible teachings. The point with Dogmas is that they can light the way for such questions. They are not dead articles of faith. They are divinely inspired and active and as such are not limited in what they can shine light onto.

Good points, but please be careful on a public forum. This is not the best place for speculations against Catholic teaching.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Yes, Devil is resistible.

So it seems we could, as you asserted way back here:

We could live in a perfect universe which we always do good.

That is a possibility and God did create that.
We fail to take advantage of our condition. We choose not to live in such a universe.

Why?

I would say the two universes you postulate (one in which in one people always do good and another in which people sometimes do evil) are, in fact, the same universe, and was created by God. It is a false dichotomy to assert two separate universes distinguished by the choices of people whether to always do good or or to sometimes do evil.

tee

 

[fhansen]

So do those in Heaven not have freewill? Are they less free than when they were on earth and subject to temptation?

To follow up on this: Here on earth we’re asked to walk by faith not by sight, as a matter of justice. We don’t yet possess our ultimate good, the immediate presence of God, aka the Beatific vision. And yet he expects us to *orient *ourselves towards that good, especially as we’ve received the benefit of revelation and grace, knowledge and divine help. In this way our justice is cultivated, tested, refined-it can grow; we can “own” it as we choose it, and our perfection is increased/realized in this way. The “reward” is the final consummation of union with God, where we’ve already decided for Him, and yet the reward, itself, places the finishing touches on our wills; they’ve been fully formed; we simply won’t *want *anything else, anything less. Then we’ll see “face to face”, no longer walking by faith, but by direct sight. (1Cor 13:12)

**1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.**

 

[friardchips]

Good points, but please be careful on a public forum. This is not the best place for speculations against Catholic teaching.

If you had read and understood my post then you would not have written this.

 

[friardchips]

God cannot do evil,

Agreed.

…and we continue to have free will in heaven.

Exactly. But if this is the case, and there is no chance of doing evil in heaven - which there is not - then what does that say about freewill, which we do have?

But we are created beings, and created with a desire for a happiness that can only be obtained to the extent that we’re in direct contact with the ultimate good, God, Himself. Then we simply will nothing else.

This is all true. You have stated that there is freewill in Heaven. Yet, you previously said that freewill requires evil for us to be truly free, earlier, when referring to St. Thomas Aquinas, and this means that your assertion needs to be scrutinized.

 

[friardchips]

To follow up on this: Here on earth we’re asked to walk by faith not by sight, as a matter of justice.

Agreed. That is the ideal.

We don’t yet possess our ultimate good, the immediate presence of God, aka the Beatific vision.

Agreed.

And yet he expects us to *orient *ourselves towards that good, especially as we’ve received the benefit of revelation and grace, knowledge and divine help.

Kind of. To be specific, He doesn’t want us to orient ourselves, He wants us to participate in His grace by letting Him lead us.

In this way our justice is cultivated, tested, refined-it can grow; we can “own” it as we choose it, and our perfection is increased/realized in this way.

Can you explain “own” a bit more precisely?

The “reward” is the final consummation of union with God, where we’ve already decided for Him, and yet the reward, itself, places the finishing touches on our wills; they’ve been fully formed; we simply won’t *want *anything else, anything less. Then we’ll see “face to face”, no longer walking by faith, but by direct sight. (1Cor 13:12)

Okay. With the word “reward”, you are communicating that you think life is a test?

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

All good. Is this referring to the logistics of human freedom towards the intellect and will’s ultimate end or towards a new beginning?

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

This citation does not appear to be an attempt to argue the case for evil being a cause of freedom. Because the Catechism clearly says 'As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good, there is the possibility of good and evil…of growing in perfection OR of failing and sinning.

As you can see, the Catechism tells us that it is right choices from all the good choices that make us free, and perfects us, not sin. Good can come from sin because God can make all things possible but this does not make sin essential to be free.

 

[friardchips]

Similarly, one could argue the case that those who were very holy saints on earth, were not less free the less they sinned; in fact, they were more free.

And how about children that went straight to Heaven when they died before having reached the age of reason and were not capable of sin?

God is pure Good. God is truly and infinitely free. And He is our end and new beginning.