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mom2three
Guest
I disagree… This site has had the opposite effect on me.
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amills
Guest
Could you please explain this comment???
The Kennedy family has suffered so very much - assassinations, deaths from sudden accidents, alcoholism, drugs, etc. The Catholic Church has been their hospital through it all. I don’t know where we would be without the Catholic Church. I thank God for the Catholic Church to put up with such sinners as we are. It has never condoned our sins but has always been there for forgiveness and encouragement to try again.
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copland
Guest
I sympathize with you on some of your problems with Catholics. I struggle with some issues about how some Catholics represent the Faith, but I remind myself that there are great Catholic saints out there too that are living the Catholic Faith the way Christ intended. But the ones who show the ugly side of humanity that call themselves Catholic are only Catholic by name and not by heart. Actions that don’t portray Christ are not Catholic actions, they are human actions. And I say this with blood on my own hands, because the human side creeps in on my life as well, I know that I have not portrayed the name Catholic the way I should at all times either.
My big hang up with some Catholics is the idea that Catholics have the right to drink, smoke, and cuss like any non-Christian. That is so distasteful to me. I struggle with that because I see so many Catholics doing that like it is OK.
But as for doctrinal teachings, I totally trust the Church 100% because Christ established the Catholic Church, and the same Holy Spirit that speaks through the infallible Scriptures is the same Holy Spirit that speaks through the Catholic Church infallibly. Remember, dogma has never changed, but the way that the Church has evangelized can and should change with the times. Remember, there was a time during the Early Church when there was not even a written New Testament, but as time progressed there was a need for it to circulated in its present form. As the Church grows the way the Church gets out God’s Word develops. Develop does not mean change into something else, but it means to adapt and progress to meet the needs of a changing world.
My big hang up with some Catholics is the idea that Catholics have the right to drink, smoke, and cuss like any non-Christian. That is so distasteful to me. I struggle with that because I see so many Catholics doing that like it is OK.
But as for doctrinal teachings, I totally trust the Church 100% because Christ established the Catholic Church, and the same Holy Spirit that speaks through the infallible Scriptures is the same Holy Spirit that speaks through the Catholic Church infallibly. Remember, dogma has never changed, but the way that the Church has evangelized can and should change with the times. Remember, there was a time during the Early Church when there was not even a written New Testament, but as time progressed there was a need for it to circulated in its present form. As the Church grows the way the Church gets out God’s Word develops. Develop does not mean change into something else, but it means to adapt and progress to meet the needs of a changing world.
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Mr_Jullien
Guest
I have to agree with mom2three, here.
Disheartened, Rather than throwing out accusations about the Church (which are basically your own opinions), I would strongly suggest that you read the Catechism of The Catholic Church.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
Know what the Church teaches and why before you decide whether or not to leave.
Also, getting mad at, and leaving the Church because some the Catholics you’ve met online were, as you say; mean, unhappy and unkind, is a cop-out.
Your loyalty is, first and foremost, to Jesus Christ (and the Church He founded) in union with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit; not to your hurt feelings or bruised ego.
If everyone left the Church because someone was unkind to them, there wouldn’t be anyone left.
And I believe that would apply to all churches, no matter the denomination.
Sorry, but this is not a perfect world, and the members of the Catholic Church, along with the clergy, are **not **perfect.
If you’re looking for an excuse to leave the Catholic Church, read the Catechism and come up with a valid one.
And should you find, in your search, this “fabled” perfect church; one **without sinners, don’t walk in, because as soon as you do, it will cease being a perfect church; a church without sinners.
Also, you say that we (Catholics) are mean and unkind, yet I suggest you take another look at your original and quite uncharitable, post toward Catholics and the Church.
It’s an extremely un-Christian attitude and highly insulting to devout practicing Catholics and Catholic clergy.
In fact, it’s blatant Catholic bashing, because you don’t agree with certain Church teachings and/or because online Catholics were mean to you.
Know what, Disheartened? I hate to tell you this, but there are people from all walks of life who are mean, unkind and unhappy.
The Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on mean, unkind and unhappy members.
Those are not requirements or prerequisites for membership in the Catholic Church.
And since you’re making generalized blanket statements about the Church, its members and the clergy, one could look at your Original post and make the same assumption about you. (Or everyone else who’s left the Catholic Church, for that matter, if we are to go by your way of thinking)
Would you say that’s a fair or accurate statement?
I’m sure you wouldn’t agree with the above example, since no one can speak for ALL ex-Catholics.
I definitely agree with mom2three. There is something fishy about your post.
I seriously think you should re-examine your motives and find the **root **of your problem with the Church, because your initial arguments just don’t hold water as reasons for leaving the Church.
The problem does not lie with the Church, Disheartened; it lies within you.
You see, I’ve been down this road before, to the point where I was Anti-Catholic.
Therefore, I **know **the reasons/accusations you list are totally invalid.
So when you’re ready to have an honest discussion about why you really want to leave the Catholic Church (or already left the Church), I’ll be more than happy to hear you out.
PAX,
Jullien
Disheartened, Rather than throwing out accusations about the Church (which are basically your own opinions), I would strongly suggest that you read the Catechism of The Catholic Church.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
Know what the Church teaches and why before you decide whether or not to leave.
Also, getting mad at, and leaving the Church because some the Catholics you’ve met online were, as you say; mean, unhappy and unkind, is a cop-out.
Your loyalty is, first and foremost, to Jesus Christ (and the Church He founded) in union with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit; not to your hurt feelings or bruised ego.
If everyone left the Church because someone was unkind to them, there wouldn’t be anyone left.
And I believe that would apply to all churches, no matter the denomination.
Sorry, but this is not a perfect world, and the members of the Catholic Church, along with the clergy, are **not **perfect.
If you’re looking for an excuse to leave the Catholic Church, read the Catechism and come up with a valid one.
And should you find, in your search, this “fabled” perfect church; one **without sinners, don’t walk in, because as soon as you do, it will cease being a perfect church; a church without sinners.
Also, you say that we (Catholics) are mean and unkind, yet I suggest you take another look at your original and quite uncharitable, post toward Catholics and the Church.
It’s an extremely un-Christian attitude and highly insulting to devout practicing Catholics and Catholic clergy.
In fact, it’s blatant Catholic bashing, because you don’t agree with certain Church teachings and/or because online Catholics were mean to you.
Know what, Disheartened? I hate to tell you this, but there are people from all walks of life who are mean, unkind and unhappy.
The Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on mean, unkind and unhappy members.
Those are not requirements or prerequisites for membership in the Catholic Church.
And since you’re making generalized blanket statements about the Church, its members and the clergy, one could look at your Original post and make the same assumption about you. (Or everyone else who’s left the Catholic Church, for that matter, if we are to go by your way of thinking)
IE: "Ex-Catholics are bitter and they bash the Catholic Church, its clergy and members"
How would that make you feel?
Would you say that’s a fair or accurate statement?
I’m sure you wouldn’t agree with the above example, since no one can speak for ALL ex-Catholics.
I definitely agree with mom2three. There is something fishy about your post.
I seriously think you should re-examine your motives and find the **root **of your problem with the Church, because your initial arguments just don’t hold water as reasons for leaving the Church.
The problem does not lie with the Church, Disheartened; it lies within you.
You see, I’ve been down this road before, to the point where I was Anti-Catholic.
Therefore, I **know **the reasons/accusations you list are totally invalid.
So when you’re ready to have an honest discussion about why you really want to leave the Catholic Church (or already left the Church), I’ll be more than happy to hear you out.
PAX,
Jullien
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Explorer
Guest
Mr Jullien,
Why did you post something like that to a hurting person? Your post is counter productive. I don’t think a harsh post like that will do much to sooth the OP who already feels hurt by the Church and some of it’s members. Maybe you have time to delete it.
Why did you post something like that to a hurting person? Your post is counter productive. I don’t think a harsh post like that will do much to sooth the OP who already feels hurt by the Church and some of it’s members. Maybe you have time to delete it.
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Mr_Jullien
Guest
Kay Cee,
PAX,
Jullien
You summed it up, beautifully!
PAX,
Jullien
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a_cermak
Guest
Disheartened,
As one who has left the Church I understand where you’re coming from. I would ask you though, ask yourself, are your reasons for leaving doctrinal? Yes, the Church has behaved badly in the past, it will behave badly in the future. As long as it’s stocked with humans it will err in the stuff not amongst doctrine. The ill-treatment of the Jews was never doctrinal–it was the work of sinful anti-Semitic people, yes even Popes. And I would say, I do not believe the Church changed it’s mind on the Jews because it perceived them as powerful, but because it realized its error. Same with usury–yes, at one time even charging a reasonable rate for interest was considered wrong, but as our understandings of markets improved, it was seen that such restrictions held back progress and improvement in people’s lives.
As for the people in online fora, remember you cannot see them. I have run accross some pretty judgemental, spiteful, relics of the Middle Ages on these boards, but I have always suspected that they weren’t Catholics–merely people pretending to be in order to lead people away.
Rich and powerful get away with more? I don’t believe that’s true. They stand before the same God as you or I or anyone else.
As one who has left the Church I understand where you’re coming from. I would ask you though, ask yourself, are your reasons for leaving doctrinal? Yes, the Church has behaved badly in the past, it will behave badly in the future. As long as it’s stocked with humans it will err in the stuff not amongst doctrine. The ill-treatment of the Jews was never doctrinal–it was the work of sinful anti-Semitic people, yes even Popes. And I would say, I do not believe the Church changed it’s mind on the Jews because it perceived them as powerful, but because it realized its error. Same with usury–yes, at one time even charging a reasonable rate for interest was considered wrong, but as our understandings of markets improved, it was seen that such restrictions held back progress and improvement in people’s lives.
As for the people in online fora, remember you cannot see them. I have run accross some pretty judgemental, spiteful, relics of the Middle Ages on these boards, but I have always suspected that they weren’t Catholics–merely people pretending to be in order to lead people away.
Rich and powerful get away with more? I don’t believe that’s true. They stand before the same God as you or I or anyone else.
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Amateur_Soul
Guest
Bill Gates, Catholic?
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Mr_Jullien
Guest
Explorer,
I am not unsympathetic to OP’s plight, but I won’t stand by while someone trashes the Church I love. The Church is the “Body of Christ”. To stand by and do nothing while people bash it is the same as standing by and doing nothing while people bash Jesus Christ, Himself.
I suggest you go back and read OP’s post, then read my response in light of his/her post.
What I posted was the truth, and the truth isn’t always easy to swallow.
I don’t believe in tippy-toeing around the truth, due to misguided compassion, just because it’s not always what we want to hear.
If people have the prerogative to judge and bash the Catholic Church, then I certainly have the prerogative, right and **duty, **as a **Catholic Christian, **to defend Her.
Explorer, you asked: "Why did you post something like that to a hurting person?"
Again, I ask you to re-read the OP. That doesn’t come across as huting, it comes across as deep seeded bitterness.
If I’m wrong, let the Lord be my Judge.
PAX,
Jullien
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TheGarg
Guest
more like DEFEND…you did not come here with legitimate questions, or venting, but to be cruel your self, in your false allogations, and personal attacks. re-read your original post…
The Eucharist is NOT a minor matter…it is the center of Christianity…if you understood that, you would see things differently
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Saint_Michael
Guest
Oh come on that’s now what she’s saying at all and you know it…
People ask why she’s here, obviously she is hurting and feels that a topic like this will either help convince her stay, or bring closure.
Why not prove her wrong when she is upset because “Catholics are mean” instead of proving her right?
I can relate disheartened I left the Church just recently over some seperate issues. But don’t let the people drive you out, no other Churches people are any better.
My wife is Lutheran so in California we belonged to a Lutheran Church and my son played in a T-Ball league. We were very poor I was a Corporal in the Marines making about $18,000 a year in southern California which qualified us for welfare basically. Anyway my son played for free on the team because of our financial situation. My wife volunteered with concessions every week (this was for the day odler kids games too), but one week she couldn’t commit to it, well in front of all other parents, kids and several parishoners one woman admonishes my wife saying “your son doesn’t even pay to be on this team, I pay for your son to be on this team, you should be doing concessions and cleaning my house”. Now we were shocked because this woman on Sundays is all hands in the air, God loves you, but that day she was quite nasty.
Maybe this isn’t the best anology because we did leave that Church because we were humiliated, but we stayed with the Lutheran Church for awhile.
Anyway the moral of the story is don’t leave the Church because of the people. Yes Catholics are colder than many other Christians from my experiences, I’ve attended my old Parish for over a year and not one person ever said hello or introduced themselves to my family ever, but I’ve found that what I get from other Churches is on the outside, superficial, people are people and in the end they always dissapoint.
If you leave the Church make sure you investigated extensively and it is the right move.
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Mickey
Guest
This was my impression also.
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TheGarg
Guest
Your statements in your original post are inflamitory, cruel, and unfounded…
and you just referred to the Eucharist as a “minor” matter…
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DesertAscetic
Guest
Jullien’s post would not be the way I’d choose to express myself to the OP, but I think a little bit of anger might be appropriate.
I agree wholeheartedly that there is “something fishy” with the original post. Just because a person says they have been emotionally hurt and have nothing but the best of intentions, that doesn’t mean we are obligated to believe them.
I in no way can know if this is the case of the OP, it’s not a rare thing for people (myself included) to have ulterior motives behind their questions, and to rationalize (even to themselves) a socially appropriate “reason” for their mindset and actions, when that rationalized reason was, in truth, never the** real reason**.
I believe, in the way I answered him in my post to the OP, that I accepted his reason at face value and answered according to it. At the same time, I’m not going to tip toe around him and completely believe he’s totally innocent. I don’t think that does anyone good.
As I pointed out in my post, I highlighted particular parts of his post that make his presentation sound fishy (i.e. the portions about Jewry for me), and asked him for clarification and re-examination. There hasn’t been much time for it, but I eagerly await clarification.
If the words he used don’t actually portray the way he really feels, and it was just an unfortunate miscommunication, that would be wonderful, and I look forward to offering him nothing but the most delicate of comraderie and warmth.
But, if those words were an accurate glimpse into his attitude, IMO he does need to know how insulting they are, and anger wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing to project, provided it isn’t hateful or extreme.
Sometimes people NEED to feel bad in order to understand what they’ve done, feel guilty about it, and repent.
What has yet to be established yet is if his feelings of hurt and spiritual malaise are warranted or not. We don’t know if people were ever actively mean to him, or if they merely disagree with his thoughts or were just avoidant of his general spirit. We don’t know if he is or not, but… IF a person goes around with such deep seated hatred (such as anti-semitism), he shouldn’t be surprised that people don’t take to kindly to him. And IF a person goes through life on the assumption the Church exists to make him happy and feel good, he shouldn’t be surprised to find his faith shaken and his inspiration lacking.
I’m not going to jump to ease his pain without some more background on this subject. Until I know otherwise, it could very well be that maybe he has his hand in the fire of wrongdoing. I’m not going to pour cold water on that hand to make it feel better. It could be that he needs to feel it until he learns to take his hand away and change his perspective.
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Saint_Michael
Guest
Not obligated, but isn’t the benefit of the doubt in order? What good is it to accuse and drive even further away an obviously confused hurting soul?
And if she is just lying then shame on her, but people should treat her better, a situation like this calls for kindness not accusations, nastiness, and gloating it over her.
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Saint_Michael
Guest
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copland
Guest
As for anti-semitism, there are reasons why Christians in the past have had hard feelings towards the Jews. I read in many places in the writings of the Apostolic Fathers where they were persecuted by Jews. The Jews were really bad about helping the Romans find Christians and to have them killed. The same spirit among the Jews that had Jesus crucified was among many Jews who helped the Romans murder Christians. I am not saying that about all Jews, because the first Christians were Jews and Jesus was Jew. But those who were Pharasee, which is where Orthodox Judiasm comes from, that is where the anti-Christian hatred came from. But today the Jews are seeing that we Christians are not the real enemy, since we did help save alot of Jews during the holocost, and one day the Jews will convert to Catholicism at the End of Time. But my point is that there are good reasons why the Church has had problems with Jews, not because they hated Jews for being Jews, but that the Jews have played a big part in Christians being martyred.
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Mickey
Guest
Yes. I suppose sadness and frustration are offspring of bitterness.
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DesertAscetic
Guest
Actually, I don’t know that’s not what she is saying. She presented herself in a manner that, frankly, several have found bitter and disingeneous. Her word choice is all to similar to people who think very hateful things. Language can be very revealing. Language can also be easily miscommunicated. This is why I asked for clarification and I’m holding out on forming conclusions. I think the best charity would be to first take the time and really delve into understanding her. We help her with nothing if we just make her feel good here and not confront her on the deeper issues, and send her back on her way still with her [possibly] deep-seated attitudes that will do nothing but put her in the same position again. If that happened, she would probably feel even more hopeless.
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a_cermak
Guest
I disagree. Some of the most virulently anti-Jewish periods were part of the middle ages, long after the Christians were being persecuted. And it was the Romans, not the Jews who did the crucifying of Jesus. Did Jews occasionally help to persecute Christians? Probably, when the split came it was probably not pretty. After all, with Paul winning out at the Council of Jerusalem, it probably looked like the Christians were of the hellenizing sort, like the ones in the books of Maccabees.
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