Why is Christianity right and Islam wrong?

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Servant19 said:
No I didn’t say that it discriminates “just” against Baha’is, it discriminates against all non-Christians. Here are the prioritisations for Catholic schools around the globe:

*** Children of Catholic families
(* who are actively involved in the parish on which the school depend)
Children of families residing in other parishes in which they are actively involved
Children of families affiliated to Churches in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, such as the Maronite Church
Children of Catholic families residing within the parish/parishes on which the school depends
Children of Catholic families residing in other parishes
Children of Orthodox or other Christian families
Children of families of other religious convictions
Children from non-Catholic backgrounds are accepted in most schools, but acceptance will depend on vacancies.***

There are 7 categories of children which take precedence over the category of “non-Catholic background”.

I thought we judged a person by the quality of their character, not the beliefs of their parents and forefathers? (cf Martin Luther King speech)

Don’t get me wrong, its a problem within Islamic and Jewish schools too. I struggle sometimes to understand that things like this can be done, and the Catholic Church washes its hands away from it by saying what you said Steve, “it is not magesterial teaching”

The things that hide behind the scenes in the name of Catholicism which is not magesterial teaching, and Islam, which is not Quranic teaching, is something fair-minded people are getting tired with…
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So what is wrong with a Catholic School giving priority to Catholic families so that their children might get a Catholic education? I see nothing at all morally wrong with this. 🤷
 
Servant19 said:
I would love to hear your thoughts Martin 🙂

Since I’m a bit confused can you suggest a thread title so others can contribute please?
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Im not as keen to start it because I love my Faith and focused on Christ and His Church. No confusion on my part.

MJ
 
daler said:
Forgive me if I say that its purported origin and all objective evidence to be considered places it at the same Source of the Jewish and Christian Source, or Wellhead, and it is definitely not a gnostic construct, which is entirely unrelated.

The issue of the crucifixion is that the eternal Being of the Christ, which existed before Abraham, or that Spirit Itself, was not crucified, but only the physical body. No one can crucify the “I AM” of Jesus. This must be pondered deeply to understand, and also the mis-translators of the Quran have also failed to comprehend its meaning and import. I have read at least four varying interpretations of this one set of verses pertaining to the Crucifixion, and fully conclude that while the “garment” of the physical body only, was indeed crucified, what is meant is that He Who lives cannot be put upon any man’s cross.
. You may wish to nail my suit of clothes to the wall, but my soul you cannot pierce with the spear of hate. His body was nailed to the cross, it is true, but His Spirit, which was before Abraham, was not. This is the meaning of this verse, though many Muslims themselves fail to see it that way.

God bless, brother. Such questions are valid, but must form conclusions not based upon mere repetition of ignorant traditions and misunderstandings. No offense intended, but just plainly stating the truth as is obvious to me, and many others…
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If one reads the gnostic scriptures, one finds direct parallels, passage for passage, in the Quran. (Not word for word, because they are written in different languages.)

Gnostic Christianity was the dominant form of abrahamic religion in Mecca and Medina around the time of Mohamed. He would NOT have heard (nor encountered) orthodox Christian Scripture. He would have, however, encountered a majority of arabian pagans, some Jews, some parajudaic sects (that parallel the Samaritans)… and Gnostic versions of all of them. In his travels west, he’d have encountered the Coptic Church - which uses Orthodox scripture, and which the Quran does not match.
 
Servant19, I just felt obliged to forward some comments by His Holiness (in whom I Trust is St. Peter’s successor ), state the following :

It is necessary to proclaim courageously and in very situation, the Gospel of Christ, a message of hope, reconciliation, communion, a proclamation of God’s closeness, his mercy, his salvation, and a proclamation** that the power of God’s love is able to overcome the darkness of evil and guide us on the path of goodness**

Let us bring to the world, through our witness, with love, the hope given by faith! The Church’s missionary spirit is not about proselytizing, but the testimony of a life that illuminates the path, which brings hope and love.

The Church – I repeat once again – is not a relief organization, an enterprise or an NGO, but a community of people, animated by the Holy Spirit, who have lived and are living the wonder of the encounter with Jesus Christ and want to share this experience of deep joy, the message of salvation that the Lord gave us. It is the Holy Spirit who guides the Church in this path.

MJ
 
Aramis said:
If one reads the gnostic scriptures, one finds direct parallels, passage for passage, in the Quran. (Not word for word, because they are written in different languages.)

Gnostic Christianity was the dominant form of abrahamic religion in Mecca and Medina around the time of Mohamed. He would NOT have heard (nor encountered) orthodox Christian Scripture. He would have, however, encountered a majority of arabian pagans, some Jews, some parajudaic sects (that parallel the Samaritans)… and Gnostic versions of all of them. In his travels west, he’d have encountered the Coptic Church - which uses Orthodox scripture, and which the Quran does not match.
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Yup. One of the most overlooked truth that Muslims haven’t noticed yet. I pray that in time the internet will spread to the Middle East (my dad is in Saudi Arabia for the next two months btw) and peoples curiosity will overpower the governments who shut down a persons ability to research.

They will notice the incredible parallels between the folk tales told in later centuries after Christ’s death and the Qur’an.
 
Aramis said:
If one reads the gnostic scriptures, one finds direct parallels, passage for passage, in the Quran. (Not word for word, because they are written in different languages.)

Gnostic Christianity was the dominant form of abrahamic religion in Mecca and Medina around the time of Mohamed. He would NOT have heard (nor encountered) orthodox Christian Scripture. He would have, however, encountered a majority of arabian pagans, some Jews, some parajudaic sects (that parallel the Samaritans)… and Gnostic versions of all of them. In his travels west, he’d have encountered the Coptic Church - which uses Orthodox scripture, and which the Quran does not match.
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Aramis,
. Thank you for this observation. My understanding is that there was a great respect for many of the Christians encountered and that they were treated accordingly. Where temporal vanities had begun to infest “Christianity”, as well as Jews and Pagans, their behavior was addressed according to their spiritual condition.
. Even as the Pharisees were addressed by Jesus as “Ye generation of vipers”, although they followed the letter of the law, they had degraded themselves by that point and in a certain sense, ceased to be Jews (of the Spirit).
. Hence, according to the proponents of the validity of Islam, the Spirit was reanimated, or reintroduced into the world by the Arabian Prophet, even as Jesus brought a fresh outpouring of the Spirit to the depleted world of the Jewish system.
. This idea should not be taken to mean that there were not pure souls among the Jews and Christians by that point who were still fed by the Holy Spirit through the teachings of Moses and Jesus, for this has always been available to seeking souls in need of the water of life. Its just that a new spiritual well was made available, in my opinion, which revealed a fresh outpouring of the same spiritual water previously issuing forth from the tongue of Jesus and the staff of Moses.

. Thank you for your dialogue and perspective
 
I sincerely regret making that post here. My apologies to all. It is not my intention to attack the Catholic Church in a Catholic Forum (or in any environment for that matter). I guess my emotions of seeing this child (who is quite close to me) feeling prejudiced against (and his feelings were very genuine and very real) got the better of me while reading this thread.

Prejudice is RIFE throughout the world, not just here are there, “everywhere”, and the first step to eliminating it is to acknowledge its existence.

My apologies again 🙂
 
MartinJordan said:
The Church – I repeat once again – is not a relief organization, an enterprise or an NGO, but a community of people, animated by the Holy Spirit, who have lived and are living the wonder of the encounter with Jesus Christ and want to share this experience of deep joy, the message of salvation that the Lord gave us. It is the Holy Spirit who guides the Church in this path.

MJ
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A very beautiful statement, Martin, valid in its spirit and intention, and fruitful in its effect upon the world.

What is apparently so challenging is to view others in the world, drawn by the same Light, which has issued forth from the other Lamps.

Can it be the same Light? Coming from this Soul or that One? How can that be?

Then of course we look at 9-11, or the history of the conquests of certain Muslims, or Christians, for that matter, and in the attempt to reconcile the behavior of the masses in accord with the teachings of their Prophet, we naturally ask questions and raise objections when they are out of balance.
 
dronald said:
Yup. One of the most overlooked truth that Muslims haven’t noticed yet. I pray that in time the internet will spread to the Middle East (my dad is in Saudi Arabia for the next two months btw) and peoples curiosity will overpower the governments who shut down a persons ability to research.

They will notice the incredible parallels between the folk tales told in later centuries after Christ’s death and the Qur’an.
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I have a very good friend who spent a year or two in Saudi Arabia. What a culture shock that was! Nevertheless, having known quite a number of Muslims from different parts of the world, I have generally been much impressed with their dignity of bearing, earnest intentions, and overall reverence for God, as reflected in their lives.

Even though great sins appear in the world in the garb of Islam, such sins appeared throughout history in the garb of Christianity. I come from an Indian reservation. I know…
 
daler said:
A very beautiful statement, Martin, valid in its spirit and intention, and fruitful in its effect upon the world.

What is apparently so challenging is to view others in the world, drawn by the same Light, which has issued forth from the other Lamps.

Can it be the same Light? Coming from this Soul or that One? How can that be?

Then of course we look at 9-11, or the history of the conquests of certain Muslims, or Christians, for that matter, and in the attempt to reconcile the behavior of the masses in accord with the teachings of their Prophet, we naturally ask questions and raise objections when they are out of balance.
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Dear Daler, you keep bringing up this Bahai kind of outlook but as far I see Islam has even tormented your Faith by constant harrassment and human rights abuses, in the name of Islam.

Has it not?

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Dear Daler, you keep bringing up this Bahai kind of outlook but as far I see Islam has even tormented your Faith by constant harrassment and human rights abuses, in the name of Islam.

Has it not?

MJ
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Sadly, Martin, it most certainly has.

I would say that what has too often been done “in the name of Islam” by fanatics makes it hard to defend the purity of the original Faith of Muhammad, as I understand it.

Yet over the years I have come to regard Muhammad as a Prophet, despite them, even as I regard Christ, despite so much harm that has been done in His name as well.

There is something about the lower nature of man that disguises itself as holy. A wolf in whatever sheep’s clothing is still the same wolf.

. As Jesus said, “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do…”
 
daler said:
Sadly, Martin, it most certainly has.

I would say that what has too often been done “in the name of Islam” by fanatics makes it hard to defend the purity of the original Faith of Muhammad, as I understand it.

Yet over the years I have come to regard Muhammad as a Prophet, despite them, even as I regard Christ, despite so much harm that has been done in His name as well.

There is something about the lower nature of man that disguises itself as holy. A wolf in whatever sheep’s clothing is still the same wolf.

. As Jesus said, “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do…”
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Are you saying Iran’s leaders are fanatics?

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Are you saying Iran’s leaders are fanatics?

MJ
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Martin,
. There is a characteristic nature of the ego which drives people who are masked from their own true selves. This false self is not our true nature, which is spiritual. Yet we must struggle against something, and that is the role of the ego.

. Pride, greed, ambition, and an overinflated sense of self-importance are the hallmarks of the lower nature of man, which pits “I” against “Thou”, as in Martin Buber’s work.

. “O Thou Who art the most manifest of the manifest and the most hidden of the hidden!”

. When the idol of self is what is driving the decisions of leaders, whether religious or political, they are veiled from Him Who is the Source of all things, their Creator, and the theatrics of people as actors on the stage of events which grants them attention feeds this lower nature.

. Justice, truthfulness, patience, knowledge, wisdom, etc are the attributes of God. Are these attributes ever visible in such souls? They are being tested, as are we all, sifted by the Divine Sifter, Who is separating wheat from chaff…

. “The drunkenness of passion hath perverted most of mankind: Where are the daysprings of purity, O Desire of the worlds?”

. from the Fire Tablet
 
daler said:
Martin,
. There is a characteristic nature of the ego which drives people who are masked from their own true selves. This false self is not our true nature, which is spiritual. Yet we must struggle against something, and that is the role of the ego.

. Pride, greed, ambition, and an overinflated sense of self-importance are the hallmarks of the lower nature of man, which pits “I” against “Thou”, as in Martin Buber’s work.

. “O Thou Who art the most manifest of the manifest and the most hidden of the hidden!”

. When the idol of self is what is driving the decisions of leaders, whether religious or political, they are veiled from Him Who is the Source of all things, their Creator, and the theatrics of people as actors on the stage of events which grants them attention feeds this lower nature.

. Justice, truthfulness, patience, knowledge, wisdom, etc are the attributes of God. Are these attributes ever visible in such souls? They are being tested, as are we all, sifted by the Divine Sifter, Who is separating wheat from chaff…

. “The drunkenness of passion hath perverted most of mankind: Where are the daysprings of purity, O Desire of the worlds?”

. from the Fire Tablet
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What is YOUR view is what I’m asking.

I don’t see any relevance here but just Baha’i propaganda I’m afraid.🤷

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
What is YOUR view is what I’m asking.

I don’t see any relevance here but just Baha’i propaganda I’m afraid.🤷

MJ
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Martin,
. Let us put it into this context. If in the 1930s the same question were put to a Jew concerning the leaders in Nazi Germany, what answer might be given?

. Would any honest answer be considered mere propaganda, and thus be dismissed?

. When government officials constantly and repeatedly look the other way, or participate in the jailing, torture, and occasional execution of Baha’is, routinely raid homes, seizing books and computers, interrogate people innocent of any crime, officially forbid higher educational opportunities solely on the basis of beliefs, gathering the names of tens of thousands of adherents for “what purpose?”, dismiss them from government positions, withdraw pensions, seize assets, do not issue passports, withhold business licenses, imprison women and their infant babies, beat old men, fail to honor promises to the UN on basic human rights, etc, etc, etc ???
 
daler said:
Martin,
. Let us put it into this context. If in the 1930s the same question were put to a Jew concerning the leaders in Nazi Germany, what answer might be given?

. Would any honest answer be considered mere propaganda, and thus be dismissed?

. When government officials constantly and repeatedly look the other way, or participate in the jailing, torture, and occasional execution of Baha’is, routinely raid homes, seizing books and computers, interrogate people innocent of any crime, officially forbid higher educational opportunities solely on the basis of beliefs, gathering the names of tens of thousands of adherents for “what purpose?”, dismiss them from government positions, withdraw pensions, seize assets, do not issue passports, withhold business licenses, imprison women and their infant babies, beat old men, fail to honor promises to the UN on basic human rights, etc, etc, etc ???
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Nazi Germany is beyond the scope of this thread imo and I really don’t see the point of going here unless the forum masters think otherwise?

Let’s focus on Islam and it’s teachings?

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Nazi Germany is beyond the scope of this thread imo and I really don’t see the point of going here unless the forum masters think otherwise?

Let’s focus on Islam and it’s teachings?

MJ
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. Very good suggestion, Martin. Let us try and treat Islam as a subject of investigation in the Court where Justice is blind, not tainted by prejudice in a fair and impartial trial.

. Briefly, I inherited the same western bias against Islam as most, and faced an uphill battle to separate “Islam” from the perceptions formed over the past 1400 years, painted upon the canvas of imagination mixed with historical truths and untruths.

. We fear what we do not know, and the accused is relatively unknown. What rumors we have heard may stem from the exception, and not the rule.

. Does bin Laden represent Islam? No! No more than Columbus represented Christianity, leaving a trail of a 1/4 million dead Indians by the 4th visit, despite the crosses on his sails.

. The trouble we encounter, in my opinion, is the pollution of the Ummayyads shortly after the death of the Prophet and the denial of His “Peter”, or Ali, as the rightful Successor. The schism they created eventuated the Sunni departure from the original integrity of the Faith. However, the absolute corruption of Shi’ah Islam from its correctness leaves no innocent witness to take the stand, your Honor. So what do we do?

. The Beast of the bottomless pit of Revelation is the Ummayyads, who for 3 1/2 days, or 1260 years, ran the show into the ground. But can such evidence be introduced in this Court? For the interpretations necessary to debate this case rest in the conclusions of the followers of the “Child who was caught up unto God”, Who, after a thousand two hundred and three score days (years) appeared in the appointed place, which is Elam.
 
The more I study Islam the more I find the “religion” very dificult to believe. From the start, It is hard for me to believe that a man who cannot read or write would go to a cave and contemplate. I find it hard to believe this man would marry a rich and older woman. I find it hard to believe that he could memorize everything he was told to know. I find it hard to believe that he became a warrior and leader of armies and he and his men killed so many people, I find it hard to believe that he had taken such a young child to marry and that he had so many wives.
But the biggest thing I find hard to believe is that all the information about his life comes from arabs and not from outside his area/country. Unlike Christianity information was corroborated from people from many countries. When I read parts of the koran and the statements about the level of women I can hardly believe it. Women are 2nd class citizens. Too much of the Koran seems to follow the Jewish and Christian bible. I think Jews wrote the Koran as very few of the Arabs could write it that time. The Koran, I blieve was written to keep the arab tribes from fighting one another and to come together to support one another.
Very hard to believe,I am sorry!
 
needtoknow5 said:
The more I study Islam the more I find the “religion” very dificult to believe. From the start, It is hard for me to believe that a man who cannot read or write would go to a cave and contemplate. I find it hard to believe this man would marry a rich and older woman. I find it hard to believe that he could memorize everything he was told to know. I find it hard to believe that he became a warrior and leader of armies and he and his men killed so many people, I find it hard to believe that he had taken such a young child to marry and that he had so many wives.
But the biggest thing I find hard to believe is that all the information about his life comes from arabs and not from outside his area/country. Unlike Christianity information was corroborated from people from many countries. When I read parts of the koran and the statements about the level of women I can hardly believe it. Women are 2nd class citizens. Too much of the Koran seems to follow the Jewish and Christian bible. I think Jews wrote the Koran as very few of the Arabs could write it that time. The Koran, I blieve was written to keep the arab tribes from fighting one another and to come together to support one another.
Very hard to believe,I am sorry!
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A Prophet can not be Judged by our own limited human understanding. They must be Judged by Themselves and by Their own Words.

The greatest Proof of Muhammad and the Koran is as evident today as Christianity and the Bible. IMHO

To do this we must let go of any preconceived ideas and ask God for guidance.

Regards Tony
 
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