Why is getting drunk and gambling okay?

[christ_is_lord]

Hello everyone,

I did post before about Mary in the “Water Cooler” section. I wanted to post a new topic. My grandparents were raised and remained Catholic. My mother left the Catholic religion before I was born. I would love to go back to my roots as I am now a new Christian. There are a few things that bother me though.

Although my granparents would never even THINK of drinking an gambling - they were very devout, today all I see from the outside is drinking very heavily and gambling - namely those famous Catholic festivals. Could you please explain this to me?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I rarely drink or gamble. Many Catholics do neither.

However, there is nothing inherently sinful in drinking or gambling IN MODERATION.

Could you be more specific about the “festivals” you find objectionable and why?

 

[LilyM]

Hello everyone,

I did post before about Mary in the “Water Cooler” section. I wanted to post a new topic. My grandparents were raised and remained Catholic. My mother left the Catholic religion before I was born. I would love to go back to my roots as I am now a new Christian. There are a few things that bother me though.

Although my granparents would never even THINK of drinking an gambling - they were very devout, today all I see from the outside is drinking very heavily and gambling - namely those famous Catholic festivals. Could you please explain this to me?

Sorry, which “famous Catholic Festivals” are you referring to? I have been Catholic all my life (33 years) but am unaware of any that are required or even encouraged, either by the Church or the Catholic community as a community, to be celebrated with drunkenness (or even drinking) or gambling.

Drunkeness, as you well know, is sinful, and is held to be so by the Church. Gambling, like alcohol, is fine in moderation, sinful if it’s harmful to you (leaving you without money to pay your necessary bills, for example, or keeping you away from work or family).

 

[thistle]

Hello everyone,

I did post before about Mary in the “Water Cooler” section. I wanted to post a new topic. My grandparents were raised and remained Catholic. My mother left the Catholic religion before I was born. I would love to go back to my roots as I am now a new Christian. There are a few things that bother me though.

Although my granparents would never even THINK of drinking an gambling - they were very devout, today all I see from the outside is drinking very heavily and gambling - namely those famous Catholic festivals. Could you please explain this to me?

Please be specific. How can we comment on vague generalisations made by you.

By the way on the other thread you mention you started, you left it quickly as soon as you were challenged as the majority of posters believe you have no interest in finding out about the topic you began and this one sounds like another one of those. Simply anti-Catholic comments from you.

 

[Leeta]

Are you referring to perhaps Fasching, Karneval, Mardi Gras, or Fastnacht perhaps as celebrated in Rio de Janiero or Cologne?

Those are not Church holydays or activiites. Many engage in debauchery during such, but they are endagering their souls and committting objectively serious sins. But such immorality is not required in order to ‘celebrate’ Fasching.

When we were in Germany, we would watch the parade one or two times and the children would collect candy thrown out. There are traditional foods eaten on ‘Fat Tuesday’, like Bismarcks (a jelly-filled doughnut called Berliner). Some of the parades are more traditional such as in Rotweil with special wooden masks on the paraders. After one or two times it gets old though and the behavior of some is not what children or anyone need to see. It is a secular celebration, rather than a religious one. I never saw any Christian elements in it. It is essentially a party. Some party too much and are not thinking at all about God.
The next day Ash Wednesday, the 40 day fast and abstinence of Lent begins. It weems highly unlikely that folks who go all out for Fasching and knowingly committ serious sins are likely to be serious about trying to get closer to God during the 40 days. I mean it isn’t impossible, but sin being such the slavery that it is and serious sins even more so, it will be difficult for such a person to remain serious with pursuing God.

 

[Mintaka]

I keep hearing about people getting drunk at church festivals. Man, why doesn’t anybody ever invite me to those? We think we’ve got plenty of parish revelry if there’s facepainting and frying fish.

This isn’t to say that alcohol isn’t served at some of our festivals. But sheesh, who’s going to get drunk on church property, when it would be a lot cheaper and easier to do it at home? Maybe big city parishes have a different dynamic, or fewer old ladies watching your every move.

However, I do have to say that our priests traditionally have a heavy hand with the alcohol in the slushies they serve at rectory and parish parties. Fear the slushies! You dare not eat more than one unless you weigh a lot more than I do…

To be a bit more serious… it’s a sin to get drunk, and an occasion of sin. It’s not a sin to drink a bit and have fun (assuming a safe environment, no alcoholic tendencies, etc.); in fact, it’s part of enjoying God’s creation. Jesus’ first miracle was making wine to help along a wedding reception’s party mood. This isn’t a trivial fact. Our God created alcohol and fermentation to be a blessing to us, He regarded wine as an acceptable sacrifice, and He even gives us Himself under the appearance of wine. We cannot say that wine is not good and favored by God. So for us to misuse such a gift is profoundly sad and wrong.

It’s a sin to gamble heavily, spend money that should have gone to your family’s maintenance, to break reasonable human law by gambling illegally, or to be wild and imprudent. It’s not a sin to play a friendly game of cards with cash stakes, or use gambling as a fun way to donate a reasonable amount of money to your local parish.

 

[christ_is_lord]

Hmmm, those replies sound reasonable most certaintly. But this is what I see. We have a small limousine company and our best customers are drunks (they don’t want to drink and drive) every one of these drunks “happen” to be Catholic. We also have these long time family friends. The father is an alco holic and a gambler as is his wife. They always invited us to their church festivals where there was lots and lots of drinking and gambling. When I used drink before I became a Christian I had a blast at these Catholic festivals held at the Catholic churches. This family had a son that is now unable to hold down a job because he is addicted to gambling. The bible says that we shall know them by their fruits. But the fruit of the Catholic church goers -from what I can see- is perhaps a little too ripe.

… staying on the subject of drinking. Why did my devout Catholic grandparents never even THINK of touching a drink or gambling. Are there different sects? What does the pope say? I mean I know there is sin in the church. But for a church to direct the sin… gambling and drinking that’s were I get lost. – This just doesn’t sound very holy.

 

[thistle]

Hmmm, those replies sound reasonable most certaintly. But this is what I see. We have a small limousine company and our best customers are drunks (they don’t want to drink and drive) every one of these drunks “happen” to be Catholic. We also have these long time family friends. The father is an alco holic and a gambler as is his wife. They always invited us to their church festivals where there was lots and lots of drinking and gambling. When I used drink before I became a Christian I had a blast at these Catholic festivals held at the Catholic churches. This family had a son that is now unable to hold down a job because he is addicted to gambling. The bible says that we shall know them by their fruits. But the fruit of the Catholic church goers -from what I can see- is perhaps a little too ripe.

… staying on the subject of drinking. Why did my devout Catholic grandparents never even THINK of touching a drink or gambling. Are there different sects? What does the pope say? I mean I know there is sin in the church. But for a church to direct the sin… gambling and drinking that’s were I get lost. – This just doesn’t sound very holy.

Why don’t you reply to post #4 or go back to the thread you mention in your opening post here.
Again I say that you appear to be simply making anti-Catholic comments. Can’t you come up with something intelligent for us to discuss. We enjoy many debates with our Protestant brothers and sisters without them continously making nasty comments about Catholics.

 

[gmarie21]

Hmmm, those replies sound reasonable most certaintly. But this is what I see. We have a small limousine company and our best customers are drunks (they don’t want to drink and drive) every one of these drunks “happen” to be Catholic. We also have these long time family friends. The father is an alco holic and a gambler as is his wife. They always invited us to their church festivals where there was lots and lots of drinking and gambling. When I used drink before I became a Christian I had a blast at these Catholic festivals held at the Catholic churches. This family had a son that is now unable to hold down a job because he is addicted to gambling. The bible says that we shall know them by their fruits. But the fruit of the Catholic church goers -from what I can see- is perhaps a little too ripe.

… staying on the subject of drinking. Why did my devout Catholic grandparents never even THINK of touching a drink or gambling. Are there different sects? What does the pope say? I mean I know there is sin in the church. But for a church to direct the sin… gambling and drinking that’s were I get lost. – This just doesn’t sound very holy.

So, because you have met a few people who happen to be Catholic and addicts, you assume we all are addicts? I personally don’t drink and most Catholics that I know don’t either. Having a glass of wine with dinner isn’t a problem, binge drinking is and alcoholism is a disease that needs to be addressed. As for the gambling, I’m assuming you’re discussing bingo nights or casino nights? Our parish has these and it is made perfectly clear that these forms of “gambling” are fund raisers for the parish. If someone chooses to not listen, pay attention or read the reprint in the bulletin, that’s their fault, not the Church’s. Obviously, those Catholics you associate with do not pay attention to what the Church teaches in regards to moderation, but please, as you have read on this forum, do not blanketly state that ALL Catholics are these horrible, completely sinful, rampant alcoholics and addicts of gambling. Just because these aren’t your sins does not mean that you’re not as big of a sinner. If one is mature in their faith they will know how to seperate the Truth that the Church teaches from the sinful Catholics.

 

[AnthonyM2]

So, because you have met a few people who happen to be Catholic and addicts, you assume we all are addicts? I personally don’t drink and most Catholics that I know don’t either. Having a glass of wine with dinner isn’t a problem, binge drinking is and alcoholism is a disease that needs to be addressed. As for the gambling, I’m assuming you’re discussing bingo nights or casino nights? Our parish has these and it is made perfectly clear that these forms of “gambling” are fund raisers for the parish. If someone chooses to not listen, pay attention or read the reprint in the bulletin, that’s their fault, not the Church’s. Obviously, those Catholics you associate with do not pay attention to what the Church teaches in regards to moderation, but please, as you have read on this forum, do not blanketly state that ALL Catholics are these horrible, completely sinful, rampant alcoholics and addicts of gambling. Just because these aren’t your sins does not mean that you’re not as big of a sinner. If one is mature in their faith they will know how to seperate the Truth that the Church teaches from the sinful Catholics.

Excellent points! That is exactly what I was thinking. One can’t judge the whole religion by its sinners, which we all are to some degree. That’s why we have repentance and the sacrament of Penance (but that is not an excuse to sin, it’s to help us when we fall).

I have attended many Church sponsored parties and festivals and for the most part people have behaved responsibly. It’s up to the individual to know their limit and you don’t have to drink or gamble if you don’t want to.

 

[Cam-masta]

Hello everyone,

I did post before about Mary in the “Water Cooler” section. I wanted to post a new topic. My grandparents were raised and remained Catholic. My mother left the Catholic religion before I was born. I would love to go back to my roots as I am now a new Christian.

If you so desire to go back to your roots as you claim, why do you make defamatory comments about the Church? Forgive me, but I am skeptical of your motives due to the nature of your posts and the somewhat satirical tone they are written in. I was an anti-Catholic Fundamentalist for many years before becoming a Catholic, so I believe I have an idea of what I am talking about. If you were sincere, a little charity would be displayed, and I’m afraid to say that it is a lacking quality of your inquiries. They bring back uncomfortable memories of bigoted comments made by Fundamentalists I knew for years, and then rejected me as Christian due to becoming a Catholic. Thus, the tone is not unfamiliar. We have answered your questions: 1. Getting drunk in sinful. 2. Gambling to the extent that you cannot provide for others or yourself, or if you have an addiction (thus being a near occasion to sin), is against the Church teaching. You won’t be satisfied with these answers however, and will probably post more anti-Catholic threads. Prove us wrong. That is my :twocents: Peace.

 

[juno24]

Hmmm, those replies sound reasonable most certaintly. But this is what I see. We have a small limousine company and our best customers are drunks (they don’t want to drink and drive) every one of these drunks “happen” to be Catholic. We also have these long time family friends. The father is an alco holic and a gambler as is his wife. They always invited us to their church festivals where there was lots and lots of drinking and gambling. When I used drink before I became a Christian I had a blast at these Catholic festivals held at the Catholic churches. This family had a son that is now unable to hold down a job because he is addicted to gambling. The bible says that we shall know them by their fruits. But the fruit of the Catholic church goers -from what I can see- is perhaps a little too ripe.

… staying on the subject of drinking. Why did my devout Catholic grandparents never even THINK of touching a drink or gambling. Are there different sects? What does the pope say? I mean I know there is sin in the church. But for a church to direct the sin… gambling and drinking that’s were I get lost. – This just doesn’t sound very holy.

I have 2 dear friends, both from Protestant backgrounds (one Church of the Nazarene and one Pentecostal–both of which consider ALL drinking to be sinful), both have fathers who are alcoholics, and one is an alcoholic herself. I have never known a Catholic alcoholic. Based on your model, should I believe that Protestants approve of alcoholism and therefor are not really Christian? Do you see how ridiculous that is?

As for your devout grandparents never drinking, no, they are not of a different sect. We are not robots, and we do not have every aspect of our lives controlled by the Church. Your grandparents most likely knew that the consumption of alcohol is not sinful (after all, they were devout Catholics who probably received the Cup at Mass each week, or at least saw others receive). The fact that they chose not to drink does not mean that the Church mandated that they not drink. It was strictly their personal preference.

The Church does not direct sin. You’ve been told already what the official stance of the Church is: alcohol and gambling in and of themselves are not sinful. They are not inherently evil. The abuse of them is sinful, but neither is inherently so.

 

[Stephen_C]

There is another thing that is overlooked here. At least from a Cradle Catholic view. (I am a revert) So technically I am a Cradle Catholic. Being Catholic is both religious and cultural. Therefore, we have both wheat and the weeds among us. We are all sinners. But at least most lukewarm Catholic still attend mass most weeks. So we have a chance to turn weeds into wheat. As well they attend most Church functions. I know this does not apply for all Protestant denominations, but most “fallen away” or “back sliding” Protestant’s do not attend any kind of Church. Some Protestant churches only allow the “wheat” in. So what do you think…There are no Protestant’s (non-Catholic) in bars and night clubs. Or there are only Catholic’s in Las Vegas?

 

[Peter_DiMitri]

Would this be a good time to point out that Jesus drank?

Clearly, if the Lord did it, it cannot be a sin… when done in moderation.

And there is no statement from Jesus in the Gospels that gambling is evil either.

I agree, however, with some other posters that this thread is highly disingenuous and badly disguised Catholic bashing.

 

[Stephen_C]

Oh one more thing…So your church…how do you handle members who do not liveup your standards? Do you have any weeds? Do you allow weeds? What happens when the wheat turns into a weed? What does your Church do with those folks?

 

[Fidelis]

Hmmm, those replies sound reasonable most certaintly. But this is what I see. We have a small limousine company and our best customers are drunks (they don’t want to drink and drive) every one of these drunks “happen” to be Catholic. We also have these long time family friends. The father is an alco holic and a gambler as is his wife. They always invited us to their church festivals where there was lots and lots of drinking and gambling. When I used drink before I became a Christian I had a blast at these Catholic festivals held at the Catholic churches. This family had a son that is now unable to hold down a job because he is addicted to gambling. The bible says that we shall know them by their fruits. But the fruit of the Catholic church goers -from what I can see- is perhaps a little too ripe.

Is it not unreasonable, considering there are approximately one billion Catholics in the world, to judge the entire Church based on your own limited experience? I know many Protestants and Mormons (as well as non-religious persons) who are drunks, fornicators, and blasphemers, but I would consider it short-sighted and judgmental to thereby conclude it necessarily has something to do with the fact that they belong to those groups.

… staying on the subject of drinking. Why did my devout Catholic grandparents never even THINK of touching a drink or gambling. Are there different sects? What does the pope say? I mean I know there is sin in the church. **But for a church to direct the sin… **gambling and drinking that’s were I get lost. – This just doesn’t sound very holy.

For a Church to DIRECT the sin?? What evidence do you have of this? Many people (Catholics as well as non-Catholics) get drunk at Christmas, for example – is that the Church’s fault? How about personal responsibility?

What you have encounted is the perennial reality that some people practice their Faith better than others. It’s a shame that some Catholics (and Protestants) live more like pagans, but that is in spite of the Church, not because of it. A mature person never judges a worldview based on it’s worst examples, but on it’s best; those who follow it’s teachings, not those who ignore them.

 

[christ_is_lord]

The reason I say that drinking and gambling is endorsed by the church is… Is it not the CHURCH that puts on the drinking and gambling based festivals on THIER property???

 

[christ_is_lord]

I see your point about the protestants… we call those people secular Christians… they aren’t really followers of Christ in their hearts… I drink a glass of wine every once in while and I might by a raffle ticket from a child selling them… we are not under the law… “all things are lawful but not everything is profitable.” AND “what does it profit a man to gain the whole world if he’s looseth his own soul?”

Its just that it seems that the Catholic church and the clergy really do endorse the drinking and gambling. I know of a guy that gets drunk with his priest. I mean if that is one of those strange cases so be it. But it looks to me that there is nothing said to the Catholics about the dangers of drinking too much. I mean if the festivals were say some sort of outreach and you attracted people of the world to the festivals to show them Christ well that’s one thing. But making money off people getting drunk and gambling that’s another.

I just don’t understand it. But I surely would like to.

 

[Orionthehunter]

The reason I say that drinking and gambling is endorsed by the church is… Is it not the CHURCH that puts on the drinking and gambling based festivals on THIER property???

Your predetermined view of these matters is clouding your ability to see clarity and causes your confusion. You have reached the prudential judgment that drinking and gambling is always wrong. And you expect that others need to adopt your position, including the Church. The Church teaches that drinking in moderation is ok and that gambling for entertainment is ok so long as it doesn’t lead to sins of excess and abuse.

Under your line of thought, if the Church allows softball games to be done on their property and participants are excessively competitive or abusive to the umpire, the Church is endorsing these excesses.

 

[Church_Militant]

Hello everyone,

I did post before about Mary in the “Water Cooler” section. I wanted to post a new topic. My grandparents were raised and remained Catholic. My mother left the Catholic religion before I was born. I would love to go back to my roots as I am now a new Christian. There are a few things that bother me though.

Although my granparents would never even THINK of drinking an gambling - they were very devout, today all I see from the outside is drinking very heavily and gambling - namely those famous Catholic festivals. Could you please explain this to me?

Can you show me from the Word of God wherewhere drinking and gambling are condemned? You cannot.

Drunkeness is condemned, gambling is not and drinking is not.

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt buy with the same money whatsoever pleaseth thee, either of the herds or of sheep, wine also and strong drink, and all that thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, and shalt feast, thou and thy house:

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink to them that are sad: and wine to them that are grieved in mind:

So if these things are not condemned in the Word of God, then whose man made tradition are you following that has told you that they are?
Pax tecum,