Why is so much importance placed on our state at the moment of death

[meltzerboy2]

If the spouse forgives that kind of behavior, one might remark that the forgiving spouse has a glimmer of the divine in them. But only a glimmer compared to Gd’s forgiveness after a life of goodness.

 

[po18guy]

Indeed! Things are, as we have heard so frequently, not always as they seem.

 

[Platonist]

This is part of the reason why reincarnation seems both more just and more merciful.

 

[oliver109]

Anyone who is given the grace of final perseverance perseveres, it is why it is called the grace of final perseverance, or do you think there is no such grace? If everyone was given the grace of final perseverance then they would all go to Heaven? Goodness me grace is a confusing subject!

 

[Vico]

Anyone who is given the grace of final perseverance perseveres, it is why it is called the grace of final perseverance, or do you think there is no such grace? If everyone was given the grace of final perseverance then they would all go to Heaven? Goodness me grace is a confusing subject!

It is a personal choice to sin and to cooperate with grace. They are free acts.

In Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Lugwig Ott stated two dogmas of faith as follows:

• There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
• There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.

Did you read the article?

Why is so much importance placed on our state at the moment of death Philosophy

It is logically impossible to save those that do not have charity. All those saved are due to the gift of grace, however that gift can be resisted so as to become unfruitful: “the predestined are the partial cause of their eternal happiness”. From Catholic Encyclopedia: Owing to the infallible decisions laid down by the Church, every orthodox theory on predestination and reprobation must keep within the limits marked out by the following theses: a) At least in the order of execution in tim…

 

[oliver109]

I did read it, where do they get the idea that it is logically impossible for God to save certain souls? is the choice of souls so immense that God can do nothing to appeal to them? does Hell really have that great a pull on some people that they will never want to repent?

 

[Vico]

…

You asked: “does Hell really have that great a pull on some people that they will never want to repent?”
A. Yes. The first example was the fallen angels.

It is logically impossible for God to save certain souls because mankind has free will. To override free will would be to eliminated it. Without free will there would be no act of love possible, but it would be predetermined actions to which the will could not resist. God desires the salvation of all but gives man free will.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

26 Gaudium et spes 17; Sir 15:14.
27 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 4,4,3G 7/1,983.

 

[oliver109]

We are not the fallen angels, we do not have full knowledge over how they rejected God, better for us to focus on why some sinners are saved and others are not, like i said in my previous analogy lets take two sinners, A and B, sinner A lives their life sinning, going to confession, sinning, going to confession rinse and repeat. They go to confession and immediately after are killed after going to confession, they go to Heaven. Sinner B lives exactly the same life, the only difference is that after going to confession they sin and then are immediately killed, they go to Hell, i will say that if God let that person live they would have another chance to ask for forgiveness and go to Heaven, this is cruel.

 

[Vico]

We are not the fallen angels, we do not have full knowledge over how they rejected God, better for us to focus on why some sinners are saved and others are not. …

It is not only the fallen angels, but final impenitence of a human. See the Catechism

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

Matthew 12

30 He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.
31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Those that attain heaven finally cooperate with grace rather than finally choosing a lesser good.

 

[oliver109]

I agree it is about final impenitence but does anyone really have final impenitence? What do you think about my analogy of the two sinners and their struggle to be free of sin?

 

[Vico]

if God let that person live they would have another chance to ask for forgiveness and go to Heaven, this is cruel.

I don’t like it for it does not agree with the dogmas of the Church. God is said to be cruel by some people – God did create life and also takes it away and life is filled with suffering. One cannot ignore that Jesus Christ states some will be condemned.

Luke 13

22 And he went through the cities and towns teaching, and making his journey to Jerusalem. 23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able. 25 But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are. 26 Then you shall begin to say: We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 And he shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

 

[oliver109]

The dogmas of the church have never really given a full explanation about the reality of the choices that men make, it all sounds a bit simplified i.e a town rejects Jesus, they will be condemned, it is why the Jews suffered so much persecution through Europe in the middle ages because they were seen as Christ rejecters and therefore damned beings. Thankfully the Church has evolved since then but the view that is taught on Hell still seems to be primitive and lacking in reason.

 

[Vico]

The dogmas of the church have never really given a full explanation about the reality of the choices that men make, it all sounds a bit simplified i.e a town rejects Jesus, they will be condemned, it is why the Jews suffered so much persecution through Europe in the middle ages because they were seen as Christ rejecters and therefore damned beings. Thankfully the Church has evolved since then but the view that is taught on Hell still seems to be primitive and lacking in reason.

The two choices are clearly expressed in the Catechism which is sufficient to understand sin and make clear the importance of repentence, although nothing is perfectly explained, awaiting individual perfection.

 

[oliver109]

Repentance is an important part of the faith, what does not make sense is why God would reprobate someone who has made attempts in their life to repent, for God to allow such a person to die in their sins seems profoundly unjust. I come from a country where we believe in giving people second chances, God seems to be someone who does not always give people second chances.

 

[Vico]

Repentance is an important part of the faith, what does not make sense is why God would reprobate someone who has made attempts in their life to repent, for God to allow such a person to die in their sins seems profoundly unjust. I come from a country where we believe in giving people second chances, God seems to be someone who does not always give people second chances.

God gives grace sufficient grace for salvation so if one does not receive salvation after receiving grace it it is due to a personal choice. Catechism 1730 “God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions.”

Those that die without a state of sanctifying grace do not have merit and therefore also do not receive the Beatific Vision in heaven. As theorized in past ages, those that die in original sin only may not receive the Beatific Vision, however may not otherwise suffer but have natural state of peace depending upon demerit.

 

[oliver109]

I think anyone who has made efforts to repent in their life has accepted grace, it is why it is beyond me how anyone who has gone to confession, repented etc would ever be lost, they have not rejected grace consistently so being lost forever would not make sense.

 

[Vico]

I think anyone who has made efforts to repent in their life has accepted grace, it is why it is beyond me how anyone who has gone to confession, repented etc would ever be lost, they have not rejected grace consistently so being lost forever would not make sense.

It is not a summation of acts but the current choice of the will. This was covered in the parable of the workers in the vineyard.

 

[oliver109]

The will changes throughout someone’s life, what i am arguing against is the unfairness where God judges someone on how their life is right at the moment of death, i say it is unfair because if God allowed that person to live longer they may well be in a state of grace again, this implies a God that is controlled by the reality of death and that he can not do anything to stop someone dying in mortal sin.

 

[Vico]

The will changes throughout someone’s life, what i am arguing against is the unfairness where God judges someone on how their life is right at the moment of death, i say it is unfair because if God allowed that person to live longer they may well be in a state of grace again, this implies a God that is controlled by the reality of death and that he can not do anything to stop someone dying in mortal sin.

One does not know what God knows. It seems to me that it is an agrument making an assumption that God does not have control over the length of a life and is not omniscient. God gives grace but wills that it can be resisted (i.e., that angels and humans have free will).

 

[oliver109]

We don’t know what God knows and in that case does that mean we can make an assumption that people are willing to die in their sins and go to Hell? every sinner i have spoken to has told me that they do not want to die in their sins, it only seems fair to me that God will grant that wish.