Why is Social Justice Less Important Than...

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Bob Baran:
I beg to differ on your statement “As Catholics we pursue a holistic understanding of the Gospel message”. Holistic understanding implies a New Age assumption that leads to pantheism.
No “New Age” theology or philosophy implications were intended. By use of the term “holistic,” I mean “thorough,” “complete,” “well-rounded,” and yes, balanced.
 
vern humphrey:
No. There is no subjectivity about who my parents were, nor that I was at the time unmarried. My mother and father were my immediate family at that time.
I don’t know what else to say except that I disagree. You are taking a wholly subjective approach - understandable based on your experience. However, the government, as a detached entity, is incapable of making such subjective determinations without excessive and unaffordable beaucracy which would still make many unhappy. The government should not have to pay for a military member’s friend’s health care simply because they are a friend at the time, nor should any other company. Marriage is to be a lifetime committment between 2 people with a primary objective of raising children and keeping society going. Thus, such health care benefits are a special benefit meant for a particular case, not a hand-out to use as anyone pleases. There are many possible problems with such a policy. One more (although I could list many more) is that your friend might change every 6 months depending on who needed it the most. You might eventually have friends with discontent when you take away their health care and give it to someone else who needs it more (your new best friend). This would invite lawsuits on top of excessive beaucracy. The health care benefit is for married persons for a reason. Like it or not, the individual you refer to was married and his wife was with child - that is an objective standard that the government is capable of applying versus a subjective standard you want them to apply.
 
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katherine2:
You provided a link to specifically prove this exact point. I can’t find this statement. Can you help an old lady maybe with bad eyes to find it?
As is typical of the homosexual movement (and the liberal left in general), they make an concerted effort to hide their ultimate motives and agenda so that they can creep up on the public inch by inch. I noticed they removed the link to their response to US Bishops regarding homosexual “marriage” because they don’t want to appear too extreme - but most of the Catholics around are no fools.

Here is the page with the removed link:

gourmetimpression.com/Press/rainbowsashmovement.html

And here is an article that shows their true motives - why would they want to dialogue with the Bishops regarding homosexual “marriage” if they wanted to leave marriage in the Church exactly the same?

catholiccitizens.org/press/contentview.asp?c=9742

If you honestly believe that this group is not trying to get the Church to change it’s teachings on marriage then you need much more education that I could ever provide.
 
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katherine2:
Cardinal Ratzinger’s statement (which is not an infallible teaching and certainly of less authority than the social encylicals that some conservative Catholics quickly dismiss) still makes the bulk of its arguement based on human reasoning.
I’m not dismissing a single encyclical provide by our Holy Church. But apparently you are dismissing Ratzinger’s teaching on opposition to the legalization of homosexual unions as a duty of Catholics.

Helping homosexuals is a complex issue. Opposing legalization of homosexual unions is a simple issue for Catholics.
 
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katherine2:
Nor do Blacks, Hispanics, Jews or Catholics, by justice. Of course, in practice, gays do have fewer legal rights. In most states can can be fired from their job.
Fired from their job for doing what? Having a hidden SSA, or acting on it?
These may be the only moral rights. Currently a man and a woman can enter into civil marriage for as long as it suits both parties. Civil marriage may be Holy Matrimony, but it not by its essense.

Then civil marriage (in the USA) is contrary to Natural Law and a debasement of both Matrimony and the celibate life. I think you and I are close to agreement. Both of us stand up for true traditional marriage. Traditional marriage is not American civil marriage, so we are “protecting marriage” when we protect the civil status quo.
A marriage does not need to be at the Sacramental level to be Holy. The Church does recognize Natural Marriage for non-Catholics as being a worthy and Holy institution.

So Civil Marriage laws can, and usually do, reflect Natural Law. It Civil Divorce Laws that don’t (but that’s for another thread 😉 )
I’m not talking about people writing themselves out; I’m talking about them being written out.
Then I am unclear on your premise. Are you talking about people with SSA’s who are actively working on living a celibate life, or people with SSA’s actively living the homosexual lifestyle who think that the Church should accept both them and their lifestyle?

If the first are being excluded, that would be wrong, on the second case, the person them self has set themselves outside the Church.

In such a case, we do have a duty to preach the Truth to them, to provide every encouragement for them to depart from their disordered view of Love and to accept the True Love that Christ offers through His Church.
 
4 marks:
No “New Age” theology or philosophy implications were intended. By use of the term “holistic,” I mean “thorough,” “complete,” “well-rounded,” and yes, balanced.
Thanks for your response.
 
vern humphrey:
Yes, people on the left consistently overlook horrible crimes. They tend to claim that other “social justice” issues somehow outweight those crimes – without ever effectively addressing those “social justice” issues, either.

Yet the rest of us have our sins, too.
Perhaps I am being unclear? My argument is that many in the Church try to reconcile error and truth. They claim they accept all the Mother Church teaches, but they don’t. The teach others error. They sprear error. They help lead others astray. If you pin them down they claim they are faithful Catholics, but they are really dissenters.

One typical example I often see is when someone claims The message of salvation is really about “helping the poor”. While no one would disagree we should help the poor, they go on to explain away Church moral teachings through a series of nuances and/or half truths. This is an attempt to reconcile error with truth.

One poster claimed, for example, that artificial birth control may be accepted someday and so that teaching need not be obeyed, but they went on to claim social welfare programs were annointed by the Lord as a must. They can claim to be faithful to the Church all the time they are trying to combine error with truth. It is dreadful. It goes on in parishes everyday. Catechesis is hijacked for moral relativism with a spin on the Social Gospel.
 
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Brad:
As is typical of the homosexual movement (and the liberal left in general), they make an concerted effort to hide their ultimate motives and agenda so that they can creep up on the public inch by inch. I noticed they removed the link to their response to US Bishops regarding homosexual “marriage” because they don’t want to appear too extreme - but most of the Catholics around are no fools.

Here is the page with the removed link:

gourmetimpression.com/Press/rainbowsashmovement.html

And here is an article that shows their true motives - why would they want to dialogue with the Bishops regarding homosexual “marriage” if they wanted to leave marriage in the Church exactly the same?

catholiccitizens.org/press/contentview.asp?c=9742

If you honestly believe that this group is not trying to get the Church to change it’s teachings on marriage then you need much more education that I could ever provide.
You point was that they expressly call for a change in the Church’s teaching on sacramental marriage. Now all you have is a claim that a link has been removed and your suppositions. That is a long ways from from your earlier statement.

If we are going to act on suspicions, I have a few of my own based on your posting and backtracking.
 
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Brad:
I’m not dismissing a single encyclical provide by our Holy Church. But apparently you are dismissing Ratzinger’s teaching on opposition to the legalization of homosexual unions as a duty of Catholics.

Helping homosexuals is a complex issue. Opposing legalization of homosexual unions is a simple issue for Catholics.
I don’t dismiss it. I concur with its reasonableness.
 
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Brendan:
Fired from their job for doing what? Having a hidden SSA, or acting on it?
having been found to have SSA, to use yoru terminology.
So Civil Marriage laws can, and usually do, reflect Natural Law. It Civil Divorce Laws that don’t (but that’s for another thread 😉 )
Not for another thread. You twist all around to avoid this issue. It is central to the question.
Then I am unclear on your premise. Are you talking about people with SSA’s who are actively working on living a celibate life, or people with SSA’s actively living the homosexual lifestyle who think that the Church should accept both them and their lifestyle?
I am talking about heterosexual people who feel their might be some openness on the standpoint of same sex civil relationships based on issues of public order.
 
There is nothing wrong with promoting and supporting social justice issues. However, social justice issues seem to have become the number 1 priority and purpose of the Catholic Church.
It used to be the number one purpose was to help you get to heaven.

It’s like in the 1960’s a document was found that proved to the insiders that there was no Jesus, or Catholicism is based on some false premise. Since this would be a shock to people they couldn’t handle, let’s ease them away and redirect them to social justice issues. There seems to be a real inconsistency here.

Finally, we may be back on track with Bishops concerned about teaching the truth as evidenced by the last election cycle.
 
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buffalo:
There is nothing wrong with promoting and supporting social justice issues. However, social justice issues seem to have become the number 1 priority and purpose of the Catholic Church.
It used to be the number one purpose was to help you get to heaven.
Quite true. The Church was founded to get souls to heaven. She was not founded to claim medicare is the best or only solution or that social secruity should not be privatized, or any other political decision.
 
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katherine2:
Nor do Blacks, Hispanics, Jews or Catholics, by justice. Of course, in practice, gays do have fewer legal rights. In most states can can be fired from their job. The law does not allow this for Blacks or Catholics, etc.
Katherine your second to last sentence is incorrect. There ARE specific laws protecting GLTB people in many states and many communities. I don’t know if there is a federal law but the reality is that the “Philadelphia” situation is pretty much a thing of the past. If you disagree and have some documentation (other than your opinion please) I’d like to see it. I know that here in Oregon these laws have been on the books for YEARS. Further if someone WERE terminated for their sexual orientation, they would have grounds for a lawsuit and I am sure the ACLU would LOVE to take it on. We’re now seeing homosexuals suing the military over “don’t ask dont tell.”

Further, and this gets back to one of my major issues with the homosexual agenda, NO ONE SHOULD EVEN KNOW about an employee’s sex life. So how can you claim that someone was fired simply for being homosexual? How much do you share with YOUR employer about YOUR sex life? How is someone’s sex life even RELEVANT to their job? Why is it an issue?

There is a HUGE difference between being black or brown or female or handicapped or over 55. These characteristics are really quite apparent. OTOH if I walk through a business do I have some way of knowing if an employee is a homosexual? There should not be any issue with sexuality unless it is demonstrated in an inappropriate way (i.e. harassment or sexual encounter at the workplace).

I think this is yet another red herring to support the homosexual agenda.

Lisa N
 
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fix:
Perhaps I am being unclear? My argument is that many in the Church try to reconcile error and truth. They claim they accept all the Mother Church teaches, but they don’t. The teach others error. They sprear error. They help lead others astray. If you pin them down they claim they are faithful Catholics, but they are really dissenters.
That is correct – to name some famous examples, Representative Nancy Pelosi and Senator John Kerry.
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fix:
One typical example I often see is when someone claims The message of salvation is really about “helping the poor”. While no one would disagree we should help the poor, they go on to explain away Church moral teachings through a series of nuances and/or half truths. This is an attempt to reconcile error with truth.
At some levels, it goes beyond that – it is an attempt to cover wrong-doing with a claim of “social justice.”
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fix:
One poster claimed, for example, that artificial birth control may be accepted someday and so that teaching need not be obeyed, but they went on to claim social welfare programs were annointed by the Lord as a must. They can claim to be faithful to the Church all the time they are trying to combine error with truth. It is dreadful. It goes on in parishes everyday. Catechesis is hijacked for moral relativism with a spin on the Social Gospel.
The social welfare programs are often the CAUSE of continuing poverty – and are seen as political plums and lagresse. It is a dirty, cynical business.
 
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katherine2:
having been found to have SSA, to use yoru terminology.
Having been found out how?
Not for another thread. You twist all around to avoid this issue. It is central to the question.
Well, I fail to see how Divorce Law is central to the issue, but OK, Civil Divorce Law does NOT Relfect Natural Law.

It’s pretty simple and I don’t see any “twisting” from anyone on it.

Marriage is for keeps, for better or for ill. If a civil seperation must occur, it should be Biblical in nature. There can be no re-marriage after such a seperation.

That should be reflected in Civil Law as well.
I am talking about heterosexual people who feel their might be some openness on the standpoint of same sex civil relationships based on issues of public order.
Nope, that against Natural Law. The greatest human happiness occurs when Civil Law mirrors Natural Law as much as humanly possible. That is Church teaching and will always be Church teaching. Anyone who cannot accept that is not ‘being written off’, they are writing themselves off.
 
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katherine2:
You point was that they expressly call for a change in the Church’s teaching on sacramental marriage. Now all you have is a claim that a link has been removed and your suppositions. That is a long ways from from your earlier statement.

If we are going to act on suspicions, I have a few of my own based on your posting and backtracking.
I also provided an article that claimed this is what they want but you ignored it.

The group want homosexual acts to be declared not a sin by the Catholic Church. If not then they would have no other reason for existence.

The group also wants the Church to allow the sacrament of marriage to be extended to same-sex couples.

If you want to play the same game of pretending that motivations, desires, and objectives do not exist unless written in a court/legal document that the Bishops played when they covered up predatory priests, that’s your choice - but I’m living reality.

I personally have been at masses where those participating in homosexual acts prayed that the Church would be open to a change it its teaching on marriage. I have also talked to priests that support such for homosexuals.

I’m not acting on suspicion. If you truly need to see in writing what Rainbow Sash wants, you can email them yourself and ask them if they think same-sex couples should be allowed marriage in the Church.

The Vatican will never allow it, but believe me, it will be attempted.
 
Lisa N:
Further, and this gets back to one of my major issues with the homosexual agenda, NO ONE SHOULD EVEN KNOW about an employee’s sex life. So how can you claim that someone was fired simply for being homosexual? How much do you share with YOUR employer about YOUR sex life? How is someone’s sex life even RELEVANT to their job? Why is it an issue?
The point that someone’s sex life is completely irrelevant to how they do their job is an excellent one. But you push it too far.

My husband’s brother is straight. However, he is a skinny, well-groomed man who comes across as slightly, well, effeminate. A rumor spread around his company that he was gay. This rumor had no basis in fact, but you know how these things go – once they get started, they’re almost impossible to stop. He became known as “the gay guy.” People made jokes about his sexual preferences. His supervisor made comments to him indicating disapproval and disgust with his lifestyle. He received no raises for two years and was repeatedly written up for conduct that was tolerated and even encouraged in other employees. Eventually, he quit.

Here’s the funny part: the reason these rumors were able to spread was that he had been completely discreet about his sex life, to the point that nobody at the office knew that he had a live-in girlfriend.

Lisa, your way of looking at this assumes that employers are rational. They’re not. Employers function through people and (as we in the Church know all too well) people are flawed. Nestle (to pick an example at random) may have a policy that says “We don’t care what religion our employees are or whom our employees have sex with as long as they do their jobs,” but that doesn’t help a lot when a Catholic is working under an evangelical who hates Catholics, or a homosexual is working for somebody who hates homosexuals.

I also want to address the idea that homosexuality is only an issue because homosexuals shove it in people’s faces. That’s not so. In the case of my brother-in-law, the entire thing was malicious gossip.

But even regular gossip spreads news awfully fast. Especially in a small town, people know who’s living with whom. People know who’s seen in public together, or at kids’ soccer games together. People know the parents of their kids’ schoolmates. People notice family pictures in cubicles, and they notice the absence of family pictures as well. They talk.

You assume that, if a person is known to be homosexual, it’s because they have painted their house in rainbow stripes and start every conversation by telling people, “Hi. My name’s Marsha, and I’m a lesbian.” That’s just not so. People live in communities, and it’s hard to keep secrets in a community. Businesses are part of that community.
 
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Brendan:
Well, I fail to see how Divorce Law is central to the issue, but OK, Civil Divorce Law does NOT Relfect Natural Law.

Marriage is for keeps, for better or for ill. If a civil seperation must occur, it should be Biblical in nature. There can be no re-marriage after such a seperation.

That should be reflected in Civil Law as well.
It used to be that way before no-fault divorce laws. In our wisdom we elected legislatures who in their wisdom decided divorce should be legal and easy.
 
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buffalo:
It used to be that way before no-fault divorce laws. In our wisdom we elected legislatures who in their wisdom decided divorce should be legal and easy.
The conventional wisdom was that “children adjust” and that “Children are better off after a divorce if the parents can’t get along.”

That is, of course, false – children of divorce go through hell, and our adverserial court system makes it worse.
 
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