Why is the Catholic Religion the truth?

[slowly]

Other religions exclude the possibility of people that do not belong to their “true” beliefs to enter into Heaven. Like an exclusive club.

It is only the Holy Mother Church that understands and teaches that everyone in Heaven is not Catholic. A truly compassionate and just God looks at what we have been exposed to and the knowledge we have learned in this life to judge us. Our faith is inclusive no exclusive.

There are other Religions that are much more inclusive than the Catholic Church, e.g. Hinduism, Unitarian Universalism etc.

But I know what you mean. I did not say Catholics officially are exclusive but they often come across as exclusive in explanations of why Protestants are in error. Note for example Dave’s point that Protestantism is based on the “lack of faith and charity”. This is example of what I mean when I say that Religious people maintain “fallacious caricatures of all other Religions” in their minds.

 

[slowly]

For example, Martin Luther was a Catholic Augustinian monk,
…

Dave

I gather that you are attempting to prove to me from your (ambiguous) scriptures and traditional readings that all Protestants have a lack of faith. But even your reference to Hebrew 13:17 which you regard as so “clear” I can guarantee you that Protestants will have a different understanding of this text. So even your argument for the Protestants’ “lack of faith” seem to be based on ambiguous Bible references. I don’t see how you can get away from it.

As I have said before, the Protestants do and will not agree with your interpretations that would lead to the conclusion that they have a lack of faith. I would not be surprised if they would be able to (and do so) make the counter argument that Catholics instead have the “lack of faith” (also based on the Bible). I cannot agree with your “lack of faith” argument unless I also agree with your interpretation of the Bible it seems.

Again, by using the Bible in your argument for “lack of faith” you are in fact strengthening my assertion that the ambiguity of the Bible is the source of all this confusion.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

… by using the Bible in your argument for “lack of faith” you are in fact strengthening my assertion that the ambiguity of the Bible is the source of all this confusion.

…And the ambiguity of nature results in people still believing the world is flat, right? (cf. Flat Earth Society). We certainly don’t want to blame the Flat Earth Society for obstinantly denying that which is clear. No, instead, let us blame God for being too ambiguous for the Flat Earth Society folks, who are most reasonable in their theories.

Or is it perhaps clear that the world is not flat, but some simply have some impediments of their own making, some prejudice keeping them from seeing that which is clear in God’s revelation, although still containing some mystery?

I’m thinking the latter is more tenable.

We can continue to argue about why the Protestants protested. I have a book by a Protestant author J. Leslie Dunstan which does a pretty good job of explaining it. I believe it to be the same reason Korah protested (cf. Num 16, Jude 11).

But I’m more interested in knowing what it is YOU believe and why. Do you believe in God? If so, do you believe in one God or many? If one God, do you believe he has directly involved Himself in the lives of His creation? If so, how? Do you believe, Jesus is the holy one of God? Who do you say Jesus is?

 

[slowly]

…And the ambiguity of nature results in people still believing the world is flat, right? (cf. Flat Earth Society). We certainly don’t want to blame the Flat Earth Society for obstinantly denying that which is clear. No, instead, let us blame God for being too ambiguous for the Flat Earth Society folks, who are most reasonable in their theories.

Or is it perhaps clear that the world is not flat, but some simply have some impediments of their own making, some prejudice keeping them from seeing that which is clear in God’s revelation, although still containing some mystery?

I’m thinking the latter is more tenable.

Interesting analogy, spiced up with a bit of sarcasim

OK, so we have two competing theories about the shape of the earth. That is not too bad if you consider that we did not even receive an instruction manual from God about nature equivalent to the Bible’s instructions about Religion. Within Christianity alone we have 30 000 denominations in spite of having received the instruction manual (the Bible). If Christians could narrow down Christianity to just two denominations that would be fantastic don’t you think? Instead, it seems we are going the wrong way. The number of denominations is growing.

Returning to your analogy, granted there is a lot of ambiguity within nature, in particular within particle physics where scientists have found some pretty strange things. Yet no one (including me) is blaming God for this confusion. Why? Because whatever we happen to know or believe about natural science in this life will make no difference to our destiny in the afterlife. My point is that precisely because God will/may hold our incorrect Religious beliefs against us in the afterlife, it is so important to be certain about it in this life, hence my concern about the ambiguity of the Bible.

And to be clear, I am not sure I would really blame God for the ambiguity of the Bible and the resulting confusion. That would not make much sense now would it? Instead, I would rather assume that the confusion indeed serves some purpose (what purpose I don’t know for sure) but that God will not hold our confusion against us in the afterlife. It just does not make any sense for God to punish us for being confused about Christianity if this confusion is part of his plan in the first place. In other words, perhaps it really does not make that much difference how we interpret the Bible. Ultimately we will all be OK. Perhaps whether you are Catholic or Protestant, it really makes no difference to God.

To me such a position is much more tenable than for each denomination to keep insisting that only they have access to the true interpretation of the Bible. Such insistence is really not helping Christianity at all.

…
We can continue to argue about why the Protestants protested. I have a book by a Protestant author J. Leslie Dunstan which does a pretty good job of explaining it. I believe it to be the same reason Korah protested (cf. Num 16, Jude 11).

But I’m more interested in knowing what it is YOU believe and why. Do you believe in God? If so, do you believe in one God or many? If one God, do you believe he has directly involved Himself in the lives of His creation? If so, how? Do you believe, Jesus is the holy one of God? Who do you say Jesus is?

I cannot honestly say that I have experienced God in any direct sense or that I am aware of his presence within this world. More than that I really do not know. Perhaps He may one day reveal himself to me and then I will have an answer to all these questions. As I have said before, my search is wider than just Christianity, so I am may end up finding Him in some other obscure Religion, who knows?
Who Jesus is? Again I am not sure. He certainly made a substantial impact on world Religion, as did Mohamed, as did Krishna, Buddha and Lao-Tzu and so on. If I end up becoming a Taoist it may not matter to me who Jesus really was/is.

 

[Eileen_T]

Interesting point though, the Mormons told me that the only way to really know whether Mormonism is true is to study their scriptures, to participate in the Mormon practices and community and to ask God in prayer whether Mormonism is true. Unless you have done all of this (and it is not clear from your post whether you did) you may not know whether Mormonism is really the true Religion (at least according to the Mormons that is).

No, I didn’t. I prayed to the Holy Spirit for discernment after having accepted the Truths of Christianity. In accepting Christianity, the Catholic Church was the only one I could belong to.

In accepting that the Catholic Church held the Fullness of Truth, why would I waste time checking out churches or denominations that did not contain the Full Truth?

That would be illogical and irrational. For me it is the Catholic Church … or nothing, their is no second choice.

 

[Eileen_T]

Interesting point though, the Mormons told me that the only way to really know whether Mormonism is true is to study their scriptures, to participate in the Mormon practices and community and to ask God in prayer whether Mormonism is true. Unless you have done all of this (and it is not clear from your post whether you did) you may not know whether Mormonism is really the true Religion (at least according to the Mormons that is).

No, I didn’t. I prayed to the Holy Spirit for discernment after having accepted the Truths of Christianity. In accepting Christianity, the Catholic Church was the only one I could belong to.

In accepting that the Catholic Church held the Fullness of Truth, why would I waste time checking out churches or denominations that did not contain the Full Truth?

That would be illogical and irrational. For me it is the Catholic Church … or nothing, there is no alternative.

 

[KathleenElsie]

There are other Religions that are much more inclusive than the Catholic Church, e.g. Hinduism, Unitarian Universalism etc.

But I know what you mean. I did not say Catholics officially are exclusive but they often come across as exclusive in explanations of why Protestants are in error. Note for example Dave’s point that Protestantism is based on the “lack of faith and charity”. This is example of what I mean when I say that Religious people maintain “fallacious caricatures of all other Religions” in their minds.

When you say “religious people” you are placing all persons that believe in SOMETHING in one catagory. The same as what you say we do.

          Unitarian Universalism

Very diverse beliefs–Unitarian/Universalists welcome all deity beliefs as well as nontheistic beliefs.

IMHO this can not be called a religion as it does not have any set beliefs. Any and all ideas ar accepted.

 

[KathleenElsie]

As Sri Ramakrishna says, there can be as many spiritual paths as there are spiritual aspirants & similarly there can really be as many Gods as there are devotees to suit the moods, feelings, emotions & social background of the devotees.

Hinduism also suits mans feelings, emotions and social backgrounds. They hold to no one belief in any of ther gods or goddeses and any path is proper.

Now if you are defining religion as a group think, then any belief that is adhered to by a group becomes their religion. Political parties, clubs etc.

 

[slowly]

No, I didn’t. I prayed to the Holy Spirit for discernment after having accepted the Truths of Christianity. In accepting Christianity, the Catholic Church was the only one I could belong to.

In accepting that the Catholic Church held the Fullness of Truth, why would I waste time checking out churches or denominations that did not contain the Full Truth?

That would be illogical and irrational. For me it is the Catholic Church … or nothing, their is no second choice.

In a sense I understand exactly what you are saying.

Yet from my point of view the situation is a bit more complex. All Religions claim to have the Full Truth (or at least the Fullest Truth). So when Catholics claim they have the Full Truth and Mormons and Moslems also claim they have the Full Truth, how can I come to the knowledge of which one is the real Full Truth? How is your experience of Full Truth different from the Islam experience of Full Truth?

Or if I can ask it in a different way, how exactly do you know none of the followers in the other Religions experience the Full Truth as Catholics do?

 

[slowly]

When you say “religious people” you are placing all persons that believe in SOMETHING in one catagory. The same as what you say we do.

You caught me

However, I am really more interested in whether my assertion is true or not. Ok, I am probably exaggerating, but it really seems to me that many believers (not only Catholics like Dave) fully believe that the Religious experience within other Religions is substantially inferior to their own Religious experience. Their faith is inferior, they show less sincerity in their search for the truth, their prayers are not answered that much by God and so on.

          Unitarian Universalism

Very diverse beliefs–Unitarian/Universalists welcome all deity beliefs as well as nontheistic beliefs.

IMHO this can not be called a religion as it does not have any set beliefs. Any and all ideas ar accepted.

Whatever you would like to call Unitarian Universalism, do you think their Religious experiences are inferior to your own?

What about the Hindus?

 

[slowly]

Hinduism also suits mans feelings, emotions and social backgrounds. They hold to no one belief in any of ther gods or goddeses and any path is proper.

Now if you are defining religion as a group think, then any belief that is adhered to by a group becomes their religion. Political parties, clubs etc.

I really don’t mean to offend but I have to point out that this is an excellent example of the kind of caricatures that believers have of Religions other than their own. I am not an expert on Hinduism but have been talking to some Hindus lately and I must tell that this is not the impression that I got.

Firstly, Hinduism is a monotheistic Religion with one God Brahman. The have many manifestations of God (in fact much like the Christian Trinity idea just more manifestations ).
Secondly, the role of Religion in Hindusim is just as seperate and also as related to politics and social structures as within Western countries. Hindus take their Religion very seriously. Many Hindus are just as committed to their Religion as Catholics are to theirs.

OK so I have also had many misconceptions about Catholicism, but I am trying to learn more. My concern is that Religious people so often discount other Religions on account of such serious misconceptions.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I am not discounting the beliefs of others. Just pointing out that in many cases of established “religions” the group does not believe in one core deity or belief and for that matter in one core “anything”. It seems that in many cases each building hold people that adhere only to what the others in the building believe. Sad but true.

While the people in the Catholic Church are not perfect there are core beliefs that each Catholic (Church Building and people) is expected to believe. We are not required to be buddies with the people in the pew next to us. We are required by God to attend Mass and participate to the best of our abilities in the sacrifice weekly at the mini mun and daily we we can. But we can walk into any Catholic Church no matter what rite that is in communion with Rome and still find the core of our faith the Eucharist.

God Bless you while you search for the truth. You are in the right forum. And I have faith that you will become a Catholic someday and end your search.

 

[nerfherder]

These questions are what my inquiry really is all about. I am trying to find the One True Religion (assuming there is such a thing), the Religion that is more true that any other Religion.

Dear Slowly,

I was glad to see your posting: I too am seeking an answer to these questions.

I would like to comment on several things, and then perhaps look closely at the whole thread, for your question is honest and legitimate.

(1) The God that all Christians know as Yaweh, Jehovah, etc., is believed to be a God of love, of lovingkindness, who has made each one of us divine (in his image) and equally divine. I feel certain that the Christian God of love is not inclined to stuff people into hell (does hell exist?) That means people who are trudging along the path of life as best they can, can count on God’s mercy in the end. (This is my opinion, based on listening, and is certainly not doctrinally sound for many Catholic Christians. But my Catholic mentor made the proposal.)

(2) My global professional travels have brought me into contact with many religions. I learned from them all, visited their places of worship, learned about their faith, watched their confident smiles as they knew that - even under dire circumstances - they were being borne up by their own choice of faith. And I respected that faith: it was their choice.

(3) When I was forced to stop travelling a while ago, I looked back on my experiences and decided that I needed to look to my own soul. Where would I choose to search? Which number would I bet on? There is no way you can make the choice rationally. You have to go with your heart. There is no One Absolute Truth, despite the conviction of people of faith, most of them in the Christian and Islamic paradigms.

My soul (perhaps that is the right word) told me that as I had been born and baptised a Christian, and because Christ had walked the walk with me all the years in Africa and Asia, and because I owed the God I knew a big debt for bringing me through a hundred potential calamities, I wanted to commit more profoundly to my original Christianity. It was a feeling, not a rational choice. I could have chosen anything: I chose Christianity. And not only did I choose this faith, but I chose - for a variety of reasons not all of which have to do with belief, faith, doctrine etc - the Catholic Church to guide me through the Eye of the Needle. I thought, I read, I prayed and listened, and thenI chose.

But I remember too, always, that we are chosen by God from birth, from the time we are born - that is, we of the Christian faith. So perhaps God was calling me home, in response to my need.

(4) I am truly convinced, despite much advice to the contrary, that the principal faiths - Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Jainism among others - are all acceptable to God. They reflect the belief and value systems of various people in different contexts which evolved over millennia. People who are not (Catholic) Christians are not pagan, they are not uncivilised (one poster insists that Gandhi was a slightly civilised civilised pagan), they have a right to their own beliefs (and this right is confirmed in national and international codes of law). For billions of people, faith of some kind represents a set of rules for guiding life decisions and a guarantee of some kind of afterlife (whether you want it or not, as in the case of Tibetan Buddhists). (Did you know by the way that Islam, Christianity and Judaism all grew up in the Golden Triangle in what Armstrong calls the Axial Period. I think this is not a coincidence.)

(5) Do not use worry about everlasting life as a reason for choosing a faith, I would suggest. You will never know for sure if it is guaranteed or not, and so there is absolutely no point in worrying about it.

There are all kinds of criteria: choose those that are right for you, and listen and learn, as you are doing now. Right now as a Christian-cum-Catholic I assume that my afterlife is looked after by our God of love, and that it is in this life that I must follow the example of Christ in doing unto others as I would have them do unto me: and that includes feeding support for the hungry, medical support for HIV patients, educational support for HIV orphans, or just smiling when someone smiles at me.

Let me go think, and I shall get back to you. If there are specific questions, I would be happy to help, as my search is taking me up and down mountains! Perhaps we may be able to learn a bit from one another, as well as from those who have been kind in giving helpful advice.

Nerf

Christ work through me
Christ stand with me
Christ be in me

 

[maryj]

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father,that everyone who SEES the son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I shall raise them on the last day.

Show me one religious denomination that actually SEES Jesus. I will ,it is the Catholic church. Christ is truly present, body, soul and divinity in the Eucharist. I ,as a catholic, SEE Christ each and everytime I look at the Blessed Sacrament. That’s the truth.

 

[Eileen_T]

Or if I can ask it in a different way, how exactly do you know none of the followers in the other Religions experience the Full Truth as Catholics do?

If I thought some religion other than Catholicism offered the Fulness of Truth I would belong to that religion instead.

I am a Catholic because I researched it thoroughly, using logic and reason. Having been convinced, like the early Christians (who were Catholics) I am prepared to die rather than deny my Faith or join another religion.

 

[nerfherder]

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father,that everyone who SEES the son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I shall raise them on the last day.

Show me one religious denomination that actually SEES Jesus. I will ,it is the Catholic church. Christ is truly present, body, soul and divinity in the Eucharist. I ,as a catholic, SEE Christ each and everytime I look at the Blessed Sacrament. That’s the truth.

That was not the question, and it does not help slowly or me.

Blessings

Nerf

Christ works through me
Christ stands with me
Christ is in me

 

[maryj]

That was not the question, and it does not help slowly or me.

Blessings

Nerf

Christ works through me
Christ stands with me
Christ is in me

Why is the Catholic Religion the truth? Wasn’t that the question? So my very simple answer is that the Catholic church is the truth because we see Christ, that is the will of the Father. It is what will help you and slowly, He is what will help.

 

[slowly]

…
My soul (perhaps that is the right word) told me that as I had been born and baptised a Christian, and because Christ had walked the walk with me all the years in Africa and Asia, and because I owed the God I knew a big debt for bringing me through a hundred potential calamities, I wanted to commit more profoundly to my original Christianity. It was a feeling, not a rational choice. I could have chosen anything: I chose Christianity. And not only did I choose this faith, but I chose - for a variety of reasons not all of which have to do with belief, faith, doctrine etc - the Catholic Church to guide me through the Eye of the Needle. I thought, I read, I prayed and listened, and thenI chose.
…

Hi nerfherder

The above reminded me of something that a Hindu told me. He said that Hindus would say that we must each choose our own path. No one from oustide can really judge whether this path is the best path for us or not. You even get Hindus that follow Christ as their chosen path.

You almost sound like a Hindu Catholic (without the reincarnation of course)

 

[slowly]

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father,that everyone who SEES the son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I shall raise them on the last day.

Show me one religious denomination that actually SEES Jesus. I will ,it is the Catholic church. Christ is truly present, body, soul and divinity in the Eucharist. I ,as a catholic, SEE Christ each and everytime I look at the Blessed Sacrament. That’s the truth.

Most Christian denominations perform the “Eucharist” although they may call it by another name. I gather you are referring to the doctrine of transubstantiation. Except what confuses me is that I thought it was impossible to really see the blood and body of Jesus. Any scientific test even to test whether transubstantiation took place will fail and so I gather any visual inspection will also fail. So I am not sure exactly how you use the word “SEE” in this context.

 

[maryj]

Most Christian denominations perform the “Eucharist” although they may call it by another name. I gather you are referring to the doctrine of transubstantiation. Except what confuses me is that I thought it was impossible to really see the blood and body of Jesus. Any scientific test even to test whether transubstantiation took place will fail and so I gather any visual inspection will also fail. So I am not sure exactly how you use the word “SEE” in this context.

Check this out: the Eucharistic Miracle miraclerosarymission.org/lanciano.html