J
- Status
J
jakasaki
Guest
I was researching the koran for a passage regarding the cross and came upon this gem.
The “to die on the cross” only came about with the Romans.
**Does the cutting of the hands & feet on “apposite sides” sound familiar for those who have studied islam/hadiths **
That came from mohamad for punishments and not from the Egyptian Pharaoh.
Is the koran from God or someone else?
Why is this a gem - because "to die on the cross" was **NOT **happening during the Pharaohs time.
The “to die on the cross” only came about with the Romans.
**Does the cutting of the hands & feet on “apposite sides” sound familiar for those who have studied islam/hadiths **
That came from mohamad for punishments and not from the Egyptian Pharaoh.
Is the koran from God or someone else?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Regarding Islam’s denial of the crucifixion of life and the non-focus of the interior, again, we must discern…Here is a piece from the dogmatic constitution on Divine Revelation from Vatican II council.
This section is on ‘How God’s revelation is handed on’.
'Christ the Lord, in whom the whole revelation of the most high God is brought to completion, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel to all mankind. The Gospel, promised through the prophets, was fulfilled in his own person and promulgated by his own lips. The apostles were to proclaim it as the source of all saving truth and all moral discipline, and in so doing to communicate the gifts of God to men.
This command was faithfully carried out. First, by the apostles, who in their preaching by word of mouth, their example and their instructions handed on what they had received from Christ’s lips, from his life among them and from his actions, or had learnt from the prompting of the Holy Spirit; then, by those apostles and apostolic men who committed the message of salvation to writing, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
To ensure that the Gospel might remain always alive and whole within the Church, the apostles left bishops as their successors, and made over to them their own position of responsibility as teachers. What was handed on by the apostles comprises all that makes for holy living among God’s people and the increase of their faith. So, in its teaching, life and worship the Church perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that it is, and all that it believes.
This tradition received from the apostles develops within the Church under the guiding presence of the Holy Spirit. Understanding the realities and the words handed down grows through contemplation and study by the faithful as they ponder them in their hearts, through deep insight into spiritual thinsg that they come to experience, and through the preaching of those who, with the succession in the episcopate, have received the sure charism of truth. Thus the Church throughout the ages is always advancing towards the fullness of divine truth, until the words of God are brought to completion within it.
The writings of the holy Fathers of the Church testify to the life-giving presence of this tradition as its richse flow into the life and practice of the Church, in its belief and in its prayer.
Through the same tradition the complete canon of the sacred books is made known, and Holy Scripture itself is understood in greater depth and becomes continuously alive and active. In this way God, who spoke in times past, continues to converse for ever with the bride of his beloved Son; and the Holy Spirit, through hom the living voice of the Gospel reechoes in the Church, and through the Church into the world also, guides the faithful into all the truth, and causes the word of Christ to dwell among them in all its abundance.’
Here is a letter of the Apostle Barnabas who replaced Judas Iscariot the traitor…
The New Creation…this letter was written in just so many years after Christ’s death and resurrection…Note the tone…it is the same as Vatican II’s, written almost 2,000 years later…
'The Lord was willing to hand over his body for destruction so that by the shedding of his blood we might be made holy through the remission of our sins. Acccording to Scripture, this refers both to Israel and us. [He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised by our iniquities; by his wounds we are healed. He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, like a lamb that is dumb before its shearer.] What a debt of gratitude, then, do we owe to the Lord for letting us see the meaning of the past, for instructing us about the present and not leaving us in ignorance about the future. In the words of Scripture: ‘Not unjustly are nets spread for the birds’. The means that a man is justly condemned, if knowing the right way, he heads into the way of darkness.
The Lord was ready to undergo suffering for our souls’ sake, even though he is the Lord of the whole earth, the one to whom God said at the foundation of the world: “Let us make man in our own image and likeness”. But, in that case, my brothers, how culd he allow himself to suffer at the hands of men? This is the explanation. The prophets inspired by his grace foretold what he would do; he allowed himself to suffer because he had to be seen in the flesh, in order that he might destroy the power of death and manifest the resurrection from the dead. In this way he would carry out the promises that had been made to our forefathers, and while still on earth prepare for himself a new people; he would also show that, after the resurrection, he was to be our judge. Furthermore, by teaching Israel and working such great signs and wonders, he proclaimed the good news and showed the depths of his love for that people.
Having thus renewed us by forgiving our sins, he refashioned us; he gave us souls of children, as though we had been born anew. For it is to us that the Scripture refers when the Father says to the Son: ‘Let us make man according to our own image and likeness; and let him rule over the beasts on the earth and the birds in the air and the fish in the sea’. The Lord saw the beauty of our fashioning and added: ‘Increase and multiply and fill the earth’.
All this God has said to his Son. But let me now point out to you how he also speaks to us. It is indeed a second act of creation that the Lord has performed in these last days; that is why he says, ‘Behold, I am making the last things like the first’. It was this that the prophet had in mind when he said: ‘Enter into a land flowing with milk and honey, and rule over it’. It is true, you see, that we have been completely remade. This is what God means by the words of another prophet: ‘Behold, says the Lord, I will take stony hearts out of this people’, that is, the people whom the Spirit of the Lord foreknew, ‘and put hearts of flesh into them’. For he willed to appear in the flesh and live among us.
And so, my brothers, the dwelling place of our hearts is a temple sacred to the Lord. Again, the Lord says: ‘Let me give thanks to you in the assembly of the people’. So it is we, whom he has led into the fertile land’.
The prophets referenced here share a very different perspective than Mohammed.
This section is on ‘How God’s revelation is handed on’.
'Christ the Lord, in whom the whole revelation of the most high God is brought to completion, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel to all mankind. The Gospel, promised through the prophets, was fulfilled in his own person and promulgated by his own lips. The apostles were to proclaim it as the source of all saving truth and all moral discipline, and in so doing to communicate the gifts of God to men.
This command was faithfully carried out. First, by the apostles, who in their preaching by word of mouth, their example and their instructions handed on what they had received from Christ’s lips, from his life among them and from his actions, or had learnt from the prompting of the Holy Spirit; then, by those apostles and apostolic men who committed the message of salvation to writing, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
To ensure that the Gospel might remain always alive and whole within the Church, the apostles left bishops as their successors, and made over to them their own position of responsibility as teachers. What was handed on by the apostles comprises all that makes for holy living among God’s people and the increase of their faith. So, in its teaching, life and worship the Church perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that it is, and all that it believes.
This tradition received from the apostles develops within the Church under the guiding presence of the Holy Spirit. Understanding the realities and the words handed down grows through contemplation and study by the faithful as they ponder them in their hearts, through deep insight into spiritual thinsg that they come to experience, and through the preaching of those who, with the succession in the episcopate, have received the sure charism of truth. Thus the Church throughout the ages is always advancing towards the fullness of divine truth, until the words of God are brought to completion within it.
The writings of the holy Fathers of the Church testify to the life-giving presence of this tradition as its richse flow into the life and practice of the Church, in its belief and in its prayer.
Through the same tradition the complete canon of the sacred books is made known, and Holy Scripture itself is understood in greater depth and becomes continuously alive and active. In this way God, who spoke in times past, continues to converse for ever with the bride of his beloved Son; and the Holy Spirit, through hom the living voice of the Gospel reechoes in the Church, and through the Church into the world also, guides the faithful into all the truth, and causes the word of Christ to dwell among them in all its abundance.’
Here is a letter of the Apostle Barnabas who replaced Judas Iscariot the traitor…
The New Creation…this letter was written in just so many years after Christ’s death and resurrection…Note the tone…it is the same as Vatican II’s, written almost 2,000 years later…
'The Lord was willing to hand over his body for destruction so that by the shedding of his blood we might be made holy through the remission of our sins. Acccording to Scripture, this refers both to Israel and us. [He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised by our iniquities; by his wounds we are healed. He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, like a lamb that is dumb before its shearer.] What a debt of gratitude, then, do we owe to the Lord for letting us see the meaning of the past, for instructing us about the present and not leaving us in ignorance about the future. In the words of Scripture: ‘Not unjustly are nets spread for the birds’. The means that a man is justly condemned, if knowing the right way, he heads into the way of darkness.
The Lord was ready to undergo suffering for our souls’ sake, even though he is the Lord of the whole earth, the one to whom God said at the foundation of the world: “Let us make man in our own image and likeness”. But, in that case, my brothers, how culd he allow himself to suffer at the hands of men? This is the explanation. The prophets inspired by his grace foretold what he would do; he allowed himself to suffer because he had to be seen in the flesh, in order that he might destroy the power of death and manifest the resurrection from the dead. In this way he would carry out the promises that had been made to our forefathers, and while still on earth prepare for himself a new people; he would also show that, after the resurrection, he was to be our judge. Furthermore, by teaching Israel and working such great signs and wonders, he proclaimed the good news and showed the depths of his love for that people.
Having thus renewed us by forgiving our sins, he refashioned us; he gave us souls of children, as though we had been born anew. For it is to us that the Scripture refers when the Father says to the Son: ‘Let us make man according to our own image and likeness; and let him rule over the beasts on the earth and the birds in the air and the fish in the sea’. The Lord saw the beauty of our fashioning and added: ‘Increase and multiply and fill the earth’.
All this God has said to his Son. But let me now point out to you how he also speaks to us. It is indeed a second act of creation that the Lord has performed in these last days; that is why he says, ‘Behold, I am making the last things like the first’. It was this that the prophet had in mind when he said: ‘Enter into a land flowing with milk and honey, and rule over it’. It is true, you see, that we have been completely remade. This is what God means by the words of another prophet: ‘Behold, says the Lord, I will take stony hearts out of this people’, that is, the people whom the Spirit of the Lord foreknew, ‘and put hearts of flesh into them’. For he willed to appear in the flesh and live among us.
And so, my brothers, the dwelling place of our hearts is a temple sacred to the Lord. Again, the Lord says: ‘Let me give thanks to you in the assembly of the people’. So it is we, whom he has led into the fertile land’.
The prophets referenced here share a very different perspective than Mohammed.
J
Javl
Guest
Planten:
I am still awaiting answers to my questions. Thank you.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
I am still awaiting answers to my questions. Thank you.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
K
KathleenGee
Guest
To deny the Crucifixion is to deny the ancient prophets of the Old Testament, all the precursors that were revealed and fulfilled in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, His way of salvation, our redemption to break the power of sin over our lives to begin each day anew, to recognize the presence of Christ before every human being, Who said in His last dying moments, ‘Father, forgive them for they know not what they do’.
In Egypt, it is fashionable by some to show Islam as the great fish devouring the little fish, the Christian. But somehow for me, I see destroying Christian and Jewish artifacts and churches, taking over Christian countries, taking over Jerusalem when Mohammed in fact had no interest in it, decapitating people for not accepting Islam, wanting to take over the world for Islam through takiyyre and frivolous lawsuits claiming discrimination, making mankind dhimmi and the use of European Christian white women as sex slaves as well as the open human trade that continues today through human marketing, I see that all as really weak and not true. I know there are many Muslims who abhor such things. I know there are many Muslims who want more freedom to make their own choices but can’t for fear of death by members of their own families…I see this as a sign of weakness and not strength.
I believe true religion exists in many people who are not Christian. Its core element always recognizes the common dignity and worth of all human beings, and to treat others the way that person wants to be treated.
To deny the crucifixion is to deny the reality and documents of those who witnessed Christ and His death. He had many followers Who did not abandon Him, who were with the apostles and Mary at Pentecost.
Also, for the first few years of the first church in Jerusalem, headed by St. James the Lesser, where Mary the mother of Jesus also attended, and the liturgy of St. James exists for us to see today, the Old Testament readings of Ruth were read…where she then chooses the name Mara, its meaning drawn from Mary’s original name of Miriam.
After Christ’s death, she was called Mara before the assembly. It was then Latinized to Maria…after her death?..from the word, mare, the sea…Maria…Sea of Grace…through her Christ received His Body, Blood, and soul. You cannot separate Maria from Jesus…and indirectly we also received something of her at our Eucharist.
In Egypt, it is fashionable by some to show Islam as the great fish devouring the little fish, the Christian. But somehow for me, I see destroying Christian and Jewish artifacts and churches, taking over Christian countries, taking over Jerusalem when Mohammed in fact had no interest in it, decapitating people for not accepting Islam, wanting to take over the world for Islam through takiyyre and frivolous lawsuits claiming discrimination, making mankind dhimmi and the use of European Christian white women as sex slaves as well as the open human trade that continues today through human marketing, I see that all as really weak and not true. I know there are many Muslims who abhor such things. I know there are many Muslims who want more freedom to make their own choices but can’t for fear of death by members of their own families…I see this as a sign of weakness and not strength.
I believe true religion exists in many people who are not Christian. Its core element always recognizes the common dignity and worth of all human beings, and to treat others the way that person wants to be treated.
To deny the crucifixion is to deny the reality and documents of those who witnessed Christ and His death. He had many followers Who did not abandon Him, who were with the apostles and Mary at Pentecost.
Also, for the first few years of the first church in Jerusalem, headed by St. James the Lesser, where Mary the mother of Jesus also attended, and the liturgy of St. James exists for us to see today, the Old Testament readings of Ruth were read…where she then chooses the name Mara, its meaning drawn from Mary’s original name of Miriam.
After Christ’s death, she was called Mara before the assembly. It was then Latinized to Maria…after her death?..from the word, mare, the sea…Maria…Sea of Grace…through her Christ received His Body, Blood, and soul. You cannot separate Maria from Jesus…and indirectly we also received something of her at our Eucharist.
L
Lothair
Guest
This is a perfect example of an anacronism that a poet in the 7th century would be totally oblivious to. Pharoah would have fed people to the crocs.
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Are we talking about Pharaoh or Idi Amin?
Actually I remember for my blog I did a post against the Zeitgeist documentary, which states that Horus was crucified. Besides the fact that there is no evidence for this, the research I did shows that crucifixion, as a form of execution, did not enter the Middle East area until about the 4th century BC. So yes, there was no way Pharaoh could have threatened Moses and Aaron with crucifixion.
A
a195
Guest
Pilate interrogated Jesus inside his official residence, the Praetorium, and then addressed the mob ouside from the upper balcony, " I do not find any guilt in him "
At that time they had a notorious “bandit” called “Jesus bar-Abbas”, imprisoned in the same building for rebellion and murder. There was a custom for the Roman governor to grant clemency at the Passover feast to a prisoner chosen by the crowd. So Pilate got an idea, “ Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas or Jesus ? " (Mat 27:17)
LOL Most likely Pilate released Jesus scot-free, and it was Barabbas whom he gave to the lynch mob instead.
J
Javl
Guest
If that’s the case, then why didn’t Mary, Jesus mother, and all His other followers just go
home and not cry over Him? Mary should know if it’s her son or not. Bar-Abbas was a
Zealot and notorious criminal. His men would have fought the Romans then and there.
No, my friend, too many people saw and recognized Jesus on the cross. Even the Roman soldier there said “Truly, He was the Son of God.”. Also, Joseph of Arimathea who knew Jesus asked Pilate for Jesus body and NEVER for Bar-Abbas. You’ve been reading too many Gnostic stories.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
S
supreme
Guest
I think the main inconsistency in the Islamic interpretation of Jesus is that it introduces a completely new image of Jesus that was not seen before and a belief of Jesus scarcely held 700 years since His ascension. He isn’t a liar or a lunatic, and he isn’t the Son, but, in a bid to get Christians to convert, let’s just call him a ‘Prophet’ (believe it or not, many Islamic sites have sections entitiled ‘Muslims love Jesus’ to attempt to get Christians to convert). The worst thing about it is that the Quran states that the crucixion was made to ‘appear unto them’, which is wrong. Why would Allah make a crucixion falsely appear to people that would subsequently found a major world religion and then send a true prophet to disprove Jesus’ divinity 700 years after? It makes no sense.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
To deny Christ’s crucifixion is to deny the reality of His purpose…why bother then to even refer to Him?..He then becomes a myth.
B
Bushmaster78FS
Guest
This is the clear and present evidence that Quran is the product of Satan. It is not of God.
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Yeah no kidding. That’s almost as bad as the guy I heard who tried to say that it was Simon of Cyrene who was crucified instead of Jesus on the sole basis that after it discusses Simon helping Christ carry His cross it states they “crucified him,” as if the him is ambiguous. Um, OK, so how did they manage that in front of a gigantic mob of witnesses, and how did they manage to hide a bloodied, beaten body with a crown of thorns and robe. And, as you pointed out, why didn’t everyone who know Jesus go, “Hey wait that’s someone else” and head home.If that’s the case, then why didn’t Mary, Jesus mother, and all His other followers just go
home and not cry over Him? Mary should know if it’s her son or not. Bar-Abbas was a
Zealot and notorious criminal. His men would have fought the Romans then and there.
No, my friend, too many people saw and recognized Jesus on the cross. Even the Roman soldier there said “Truly, He was the Son of God.”. Also, Joseph of Arimathea who knew Jesus asked Pilate for Jesus body and NEVER for Bar-Abbas. You’ve been reading too many Gnostic stories.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Such arguments only work if you play pick-and-choose with the passages. They don’t work when you look at the broader context and apply common sense.
B
Bushmaster78FS
Guest
Infidels, didn’t you all know that actual injeel was lost, the real story is in there, these are all “conjectures” you are coming up with…
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Reading other Catholic/Orthdox posts…and people should read the actual downfall of Constantinople and the treatment of Serbs by the Turks…these falsifications appear a very desperate attempt to deny Christ’s work as Savior and Redeemer…
And to learn the Koran by memory, the continual recitation and literal meaning…I can also see why it is hard to reason and have dialogue.
I know a woman who was involved with the New Age for just two years, and then returned to the Catholic Church. She said there was a real power in it trying to get her back.
I think those who come in to share and dialogue have good intentions and wish to represent moderate people…Look at those Muslim citizens in Iraq who deplore the violence…but they are gone…have left so many days ago…
And to learn the Koran by memory, the continual recitation and literal meaning…I can also see why it is hard to reason and have dialogue.
I know a woman who was involved with the New Age for just two years, and then returned to the Catholic Church. She said there was a real power in it trying to get her back.
I think those who come in to share and dialogue have good intentions and wish to represent moderate people…Look at those Muslim citizens in Iraq who deplore the violence…but they are gone…have left so many days ago…
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
When people talk of Islam being a religion of peace - or to be more specific, that Muslim rulers were always tolerant - I often ask them to talk to a Serb or Greek and ask how peaceful they perceive Islam and Muslim history to be.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
How true!
I did not begin to read such histories until after 9/11.
Our medical office now has a pastel of the Mosque of St. Sophia, and now it really afflicts me seeing it knowing that the streets were deep in blood. Horrific!
I did not begin to read such histories until after 9/11.
Our medical office now has a pastel of the Mosque of St. Sophia, and now it really afflicts me seeing it knowing that the streets were deep in blood. Horrific!
J
Javl
Guest
Also talk to Armenian Christians. They’ll have plenty of horror stories to tell. Some worseWhen people talk of Islam being a religion of peace - or to be more specific, that Muslim rulers were always tolerant - I often ask them to talk to a Serb or Greek and ask how peaceful they perceive Islam and Muslim history to be.
than those of the Jewish holocaust. In my estimation Islam is a political philosophy that
is disguised as a religion. I think Iran and Libya, as examples, prove it.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Again, I hear and see how Muslims are offended by what is considered blasphemous to Mohammed, who is to them a prophet.
But I do not see the empathy towards Christians who experience the inner life of the kingdom brought about by Christ’s life, miracles and teachings, the emphasis on having a clean heart, His death, His resurrection, His ascended history with the Apostles, His glorified state after Pentecost, the Acts of the Apostles…the spreading of the Word of God without killing people to convert.
To deny Christ in the truth of tradition passed down through the apostles – again, people who were constantly with Him at the beginning of His ministry – causes us such pain and hurt.
When people say that they understand Christ in the Jewish tradition, they are also denying the countless Jewish prophetic texts that accurately foretold Christ – and a man of suffering, not domination – Who would be placed on a tree – a symbol of defeat, implying that He would be denied even by His own people.
So the concept of Christ held by the Muslims is really one of rejection of the True Jesus.
Furthermore, I see Mohammed in time denying and contradicting the 10 commandments. He denies Jesus is the Son of God…you have your family name. Your children are your flesh and blood, they are part of you, you inherit your parents’ genes and nature…Jesus is God through the Personhood of Son…He is the link to restore humanity as brothers and sisters.
To actively deny Christ as both Divine and Human is also a manner of taking His name in vain. I respect the Muslims great respect for the holy name of Jesus…but it means more than prophet…
The Resurrection fulfills time and days and years…the sabbath…
Honor your mother and father…but if they convert to another religion…do you kill them? Obey civil authorities…there is so much rebellion and fighting against lawful authority in Islam…
Thou shalt not kill…how many Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, animists died under the sword of Islam?
To keep pure…keep your body clean, both physically and spiritually…yet the tenants of Islam do not require men to control their sexual appetites…and the image of women belly dancers come to my mind, and I don’t consider that dance form very modest.
Not to steal…Mohammed said it was OK to plunder and rob the enemy…
Not to bear false witness…what about takkiyre?
Not to covet a man’s wife…Not to covet your neighbors’ (hard earned) goods…
But I do not see the empathy towards Christians who experience the inner life of the kingdom brought about by Christ’s life, miracles and teachings, the emphasis on having a clean heart, His death, His resurrection, His ascended history with the Apostles, His glorified state after Pentecost, the Acts of the Apostles…the spreading of the Word of God without killing people to convert.
To deny Christ in the truth of tradition passed down through the apostles – again, people who were constantly with Him at the beginning of His ministry – causes us such pain and hurt.
When people say that they understand Christ in the Jewish tradition, they are also denying the countless Jewish prophetic texts that accurately foretold Christ – and a man of suffering, not domination – Who would be placed on a tree – a symbol of defeat, implying that He would be denied even by His own people.
So the concept of Christ held by the Muslims is really one of rejection of the True Jesus.
Furthermore, I see Mohammed in time denying and contradicting the 10 commandments. He denies Jesus is the Son of God…you have your family name. Your children are your flesh and blood, they are part of you, you inherit your parents’ genes and nature…Jesus is God through the Personhood of Son…He is the link to restore humanity as brothers and sisters.
To actively deny Christ as both Divine and Human is also a manner of taking His name in vain. I respect the Muslims great respect for the holy name of Jesus…but it means more than prophet…
The Resurrection fulfills time and days and years…the sabbath…
Honor your mother and father…but if they convert to another religion…do you kill them? Obey civil authorities…there is so much rebellion and fighting against lawful authority in Islam…
Thou shalt not kill…how many Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, animists died under the sword of Islam?
To keep pure…keep your body clean, both physically and spiritually…yet the tenants of Islam do not require men to control their sexual appetites…and the image of women belly dancers come to my mind, and I don’t consider that dance form very modest.
Not to steal…Mohammed said it was OK to plunder and rob the enemy…
Not to bear false witness…what about takkiyre?
Not to covet a man’s wife…Not to covet your neighbors’ (hard earned) goods…
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Kathleen, that is for me one of the most painful factors to me when I debate, speak to or listen to Muslims. They are perishing, and do not know it, because they are ingrained with a way of thinking, and belong to a faith that, whether they can admit it or not, forces them to lie. I don’t necessarily mean taqqiya, which you referred to later on in your post, but the double standards we see so often in Muslim apologetics. Classic example: the Bible is the inspired word of God…until it contradicts Islam, then it’s been corrupted. When I realized how intellectually dishonest this was, it was one of the factors that helped bring me back to Christ. Unfortunately, many Muslims don’t seem to realize that.
I think too often, especially around here, people debate Muslims to make them look stupid. They’re no better than the Muslims who debate Christians just to earn points from their side. The fact is, debate and discussion should be about presenting the truth to people, just as Paul presented the truth before the Romans and Jews. I do not preach Christ because it is correct, but because He is the Truth.
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