Why not ask Mary and the Saints for prayers?

[kimg901]

Prayers to the dead are a pagan practice or ancestor worship.

Prayers are for the Lord who is a jealous God.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

The Bible defines a Saint as a believer both on earth and in Heaven.

Ephesians 1:1 (Pauls first letter to the Ephesians living in his day)
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 1:1
Salutation ] Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ at Colos′sae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.

Jude 1:14
Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,

Im a little confused by your post? Are you saying yes, ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us or no, we shouldnt?

 

[joe371]

Im a little confused by your post? Are you saying yes, ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us or no, we shouldnt?

Probably just curious as to why non-Catholics don’t ask Mary and the saints in heaven to pray for them? I don’t get it either…They are in heaven and they care about us, so why wouldn’t they pray for us. After all I am sure they have a perfect understanding of hell and desperately want us to be with them forever.

 

[kimg901]

Probably just curious as to why non-Catholics don’t ask Mary and the saints in heaven to pray for them? I don’t get it either…They are in heaven and they care about us, so why wouldn’t they pray for us. After all I am sure they have a perfect understanding of hell and desperately want us to be with them forever.

Here is the way I look at it.
a) If asking for their prayers is required, then great.
b) If its not required and its not doing any harm, then great.

If Scripture said “Do not ask for the prayers of Mary and the Saints”, then I wouldnt. But it doesnt say such a thing so…

 

[cheezey]

Here is the way I look at it.
a) If asking for their prayers is required, then great.
b) If its not required and its not doing any harm, then great.

If Scripture said “Do not ask for the prayers of Mary and the Saints”, then I wouldnt. But it doesnt say such a thing so…

i like the way you look at things.

this cinches it for me, an as yet Catholic

I gotta admit, though, I don’t pray the same way as many of you fine folk do.

 

[kimg901]

i like the way you look at things.

this cinches it for me, an as yet Catholic

I gotta admit, though, I don’t pray the same way as many of you fine folk do.

All you need to do is pray the Our Father. I like to start out by giving Him thanks and praise for all the blessings He has given me. I then do the Our Father. Sometimes I just sit or lay there and speak to Him. Ill ask questions that I get answers for in subtle ways. Just be humble and honest in your prayer life. God will do the rest

 

[guanophore]

This is an article detailing the timeline of the Catholic Church’s elevation of Mary.

truthmagazine.com/archives/volume34/GOT034165.html

I think you may have provided a wrong link, Jeanne. What you have here is an anti-Catholic polemic against the Assumption.

Anyway the CC did not “elevate” Mary, God did! The Church just recognized what He had already done.

Luke 1:46-49

"My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has looked with favor on the lowliness of his servant.
Surely, from now on all generations will call me blessed;
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Prayers to the dead are a pagan practice or ancestor worship.

Right

We pray with those who are alive, on earth and in heaven

 

[guanophore]

Let’s do an imaginary brain mapping experiment. Hook you up to an fMRI, analyze some baseline behavior, then do a series of trials in which you offer different types of prayer.

In one trial, you offer “latria” to God. It goes to God, so of course it’s unique. In another trial, you offer “hyperdulia” to Mary. It goes to Mary, so of course it’s unique.

When you’re looking at your brain and how it’s functioning, however, what is different there? Surely your brain’s behavior is not identical from one to the next- is it? You’re supposed to be doing two different things.

But different how?

Intention. One cannot worship/adore without intending to do so . We adore/worship God.

We give honor to His saints, because of the work He has accomplished in them. Mary has fulfilled the pinnacle of His intention for humanity.

I noticed that in the above text that worship was taken out and venerate was substituted but in essence it has the same meaning. From Dictionary.com:

venerate: comes from a Latin word meaning to solicit the goodwill of (a god), worship, revere. Defined as to hold in deep respect; revere; to honour in recognition of qualities of holiness, excellence, wisdom, etc.

From Webster’s:

venerate: to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference; to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

Synonyms: adore, deify, glorify, revere, reverence, worship

I know you’re trying to say that you don’t hold Mary up to the same esteem as God but it seems to carry a connotation of her being something more than human.

I have trouble with the language too, but it comes out of middle English.

When God’s purpose is fulfilled in all His saints they all sound "more than human’. Such is the case of the OT saints also catalogued in Heb. 11. We undervalue His plan for us.

1 Cor 2:8-9 9 But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the human heart conceived,
what God has prepared for those who love him” —

“love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor.” Rom 12:10

" Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due." Rom 13:7

“Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.” Eph 6:1-3

" So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men, 30 for he nearly died for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete your service to me "
Phil 2:29-30

“Honor widows who are real widows.” 1 Tim 5:3

“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;” 1 Tim 5:17-18

“Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.” Heb 13:7

James 5:16-17
The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

There are none more “righteous” than those who have already entered their heavenly reward, and are eternally now protected from all sin.

Heb 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,

The refusal to honor those who have gone before us in the faith also denies all those saints described in Heb 11, and the “cloud of witnesses” (communion of saints) that exists with us.

Our spiritual “ancestors”, or those who have gone before us in the faith surround us as a great cloud of witnesses. They are alive, and may be given to know what transpires here on earth, and can pray with us.

Rev 8:4-5
And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

 

[guanophore]

There is the Holy Spirit and there are Demons. That is why we are to test the spirits. these are the only ones that interact with us.

Clearly you have been given misinformation.

Who do you think was talking to Saul?

1 Sam 28:19
Moreover the LORD will give Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines."

Was it demons talking to Jesus?

Luke 9:30-31
30 Suddenly they saw two men, Moses and Elijah, talking to him. 31 They appeared in glory and were speaking of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

What exactly appeared to many?

Matt 27:52-53
52 The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of **the saints who had fallen asleep **were raised. 53 After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many.

berk, it sounds like you don’t really believe what is written it the Bible.

Test the spirit against God’s word.

I think it might be more accurate to say that you are checking it against your PERCEPTION of God’s word, since it appears you don’t really believe part of what is written.

 

[guanophore]

That job is already taken by the Holy Spirit - the *only* one who *can* take us to Christ - after we agree to a major clean-up.

I am sure glad this is not true. If I had believed this, I would not have been open to the dozens of people whose piety and good example led me closer to Christ.

I know there are factions who advocate for a Quarternity instead of a Trinity but ‘adding one to the Trinity’ can’t be the plan. Or perhaps Mary plans to replace the Holy Spirit?

I am beginning to wonder what brought you here, Jeanne. You seem to be intent upon throwing grenades at Catholics.

 

[guanophore]

Prayers to the dead are a pagan practice or ancestor worship.

Catholics agree. that is why we only pray to those who are alive.

Prayers are for the Lord who is a jealous God.

Worship, yes, conversation, no.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Indeed! We are able to participate in the one mediation of Christ. He mediated our eternal salvation, so that we can mediate HIs grace to the world.

The Bible defines a Saint as a believer both on earth and in Heaven.

And not separated by death.

You have been wrongly informed about the Catholic faith.

 

[pablope]

Prayers to the dead are a pagan practice or ancestor worship.

Prayers are for the Lord who is a jealous God.

1ts,

No, Mike Socal…this practrice is ancient, and very Jewish. On the contrary…it was the pagans who hated and abhorred this practice of the Jews, and the new Christians.

And in fact…it was in fact pagans in the early days of Christianity who believed and had qualm as you do:

calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/

Relics, Saints, and the Assumption of Mary
Aug 15th, 2012 | By David Anders

The first real blow to this interpretation came when I read Peter Brown’s book, The Cult of Saints: Its Rise and Function in Latin Christianity.

Brown challenged my view that the place of saints and relics in the church was a mere holdover from paganism, and that the practice was somehow peripheral to true Christianity. Instead, Brown painted a picture of ancient Christianity and paganism in which relics were indispensable to the former, and repulsive to the latter. Far from a holdover from paganism, the place of relics in the Church appeared as something intensely Jewish, Hebraic, and Old Testament. Pagans, like Julian-the-Apostate, found the practice revolting and legislated against it. (Paganism, with its notions of ritual purity, had strictly delimited the realm of divine worship and neatly separated it from the realm of corpses and the dead.)

Peter Brown:

On this point, the rise of Christianity in the pagan world was met by deep religious anger. We can chart the rise to prominence of the Christian church most faithfully by listening to pagan reactions to the cult of martyrs. For the progress of this cult spelled out for the pagans a slow and horrid crumbling of ancient barriers.1

The key to the New Testament doctrine of the saints is not to destroy the older Hebraic doctrine of shared merit and responsibility, but to elevate it to an even greater place. Through Christ, and because of his infinite merits, the finite merits of the saints can now take on an eternal significance. This is why, far from detracting from Christ, the Christian belief in the intercession of saints enhances, fulfills, and completes the doctrine of Christ’s infinite and sufficient intercession.

 

[joe371]

guanophore;10821315]I am sure glad this is not true. If I had believed this, I would not have been open to the dozens of people whose piety and good example led me closer to Christ.

Good point. :thumbsup:The little seers from Fatima, Pio of Pietrelcina, Faustina of Poland, Teresa of Avila, Bernadette of France, just to name a few, were instrumental in my conversion. I saw them as beacons of light in Jesus’ church, especially when so much focus is placed on the negative aspects of the church e.g. paedophile.

 

[guanophore]

Probably just curious as to why non-Catholics don’t ask Mary and the saints in heaven to pray for them? I don’t get it either…They are in heaven and they care about us, so why wouldn’t they pray for us. After all I am sure they have a perfect understanding of hell and desperately want us to be with them forever.

This is one of the ancient practices of the Church that was jettisoned at the Reformation.

When the heresy of Sola Scriptura was invented, most Holy Traditions that the Reformers could not see in their Bibles were thrown out. They also changed the meaning of the creeds, so that “communion of saints” no longer meant what it did to the ancient Church. They were reacting to what they thought was an overemphasis on Mary and the Saints. It is true that there was quite a bit of superstition at the time of the Reformation. In order to throw out the superstition and abuses, the Reformers also found it expedient to throw out some of the doctrines of the faith, and create new ones more suitable to their needs.

More recently, fundamentalists have been taught another heresy called “soul sleep” where they believe that the “dead know nothing”. This is supported by a scripture from Ecclesiastes:

Eccl 9:5-6
5 The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no more reward, and even the memory of them is lost. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished; never again will they have any share in all that happens under the sun.

If this is the case, you are praying to the wind!

 

[guanophore]

You have to be a Berean and search the scripture.

Indeed we do, berk60. However, you have misunderstood the meaning of the verse.

Acts 17:11-12
1 These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so.

What made the Bereans more noble than those in Thessalonica was that they were more receptive to the apostolic message. They received the apostolic preaching with joy.
This is the exact opposite of what Sola Scripturists do. Instead of receiving the Apostolic message from the once for all deposit of faith where Jesus placed it, they cut themselves off from that kerygma and attempt to extract the Truth from their truncated Bibles without the Apostolic guidance.

What Luke is saying is that the Bereans, who already knew the scriptures, re-examined them in the light of the Apostolic message. This is a basic principle of how we are to read the Bible - through the lens of the Apostolic Faith that produced it. That One Faith is the one preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church.

 

[berk60]

Indeed we do, berk60. However, you have misunderstood the meaning of the verse.

Acts 17:11-12
1 These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so.

What made the Bereans more noble than those in Thessalonica was that they were more receptive to the apostolic message. They received the apostolic preaching with joy.
This is the exact opposite of what Sola Scripturists do. Instead of receiving the Apostolic message from the once for all deposit of faith where Jesus placed it, they cut themselves off from that kerygma and attempt to extract the Truth from their truncated Bibles without the Apostolic guidance.

What Luke is saying is that the Bereans, who already knew the scriptures, re-examined them in the light of the Apostolic message. This is a basic principle of how we are to read the Bible - through the lens of the Apostolic Faith that produced it. That One Faith is the one preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church.

The Bereans received the word in all readiness but they verified what was being told to them by searching the scriptures for the selfs just as we should do.

“Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.” Acts 17

We shouldn’t believe everything the Church tells us if it isn’t found in the Bible. There is coming a day when a great deception will be brought for all those who don’t love the truth of God’s word.

 

[kimg901]

We shouldn’t believe everything the Church tells us if it isn’t found in the Bible. There is coming a day when a great deception will be brought for all those who don’t love the truth of God’s word.

And what of tradition(s)? Do you celebrate Christmas? Easter? 4th of July? Any holiday?

 

[concretecamper]

We shouldn’t believe everything the Church tells us if it isn’t found in the Bible. There is coming a day when a great deception will be brought for all those who don’t love the truth of God’s word.

Haha. What about those things that are in the Bible yet Protestants still refuse to believe. It is a question of humility. The humility to subject ourselves to Christ and His Church.

 

[berk60]

Haha. What about those things that are in the Bible yet Protestants still refuse to believe. It is a question of humility. The humility to subject ourselves to Christ and His Church.

And what would those things in the Bible be but the ones you misinterpret. Humility to God is true humility. Humility to man’s word that is contrary to God 's word is error.

 

[pablope]

The Bereans received the word in all readiness but they verified what was being told to them by searching the scriptures for the selfs just as we should do.

“Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.” Acts 17