Why the lack of Tridentine Mass?

[Andreas_Hofer]

I’m going to pretend this thread is still on topic and talk about the TLM.

I agree with those who, while they support the TLM, think it needs to expand slowly. There is one factor I’ve noticed, though, that leaves me perplexed as to what course of action would be best. Many people cite the low attendance numbers at the TLM as evidence of lack of interest and therefore no need for expansion. But I’ll betcha part of the reason behind the low attendance is that so many people would have to drive quite a ways to get to an indult. For instance, up until Fall '04, to get to an indult from school here at ND I would have had to drive 45 minutes to a Mass at 7:00 am. Is it any wonder a Mass like that might not succeed in drawing the crowds of the local 10:30 Pauline Mass? But geographical expansion (more parishes, Masses offered) is no guarantee that those fence-sitters will actually show up. The diocese could just wind up thinning out its already small TLM communities.

While I think ultimately an initial expansion with thinning results might still be beneficial, making it easier for attendees to convince inquisitive friends to accompany them, priest shortages make that expansion nearly impossible to carry out. So for the moment, very incremental expansion seems to be the only option. Don’t set your sights much higher than the 15 seminarian class accepted each year by the American FSSP.

 

[Kielbasi]

For instance, up until Fall '04, to get to an indult from school here at ND I would have had to drive 45 minutes to a Mass at 7:00 am.

Very few people want to travel that far, particularly in the city on Sunday morning. Further, people like to attend mass where they know the other people there, their neighbors and friends and sit in the same pew every week.

Nostaglia for the latin mass isn’t going to override people’s other feelings, except for a tiny minority, even if the people remember and like the old latin.

I suspect that the Latin mass communities are a pretty self limited phenomenon which aren’t going to be expanding that much at all, over the short or long term.

 

[bear06]

Our TLM is at 12:30 and now we will have a daily 6PM. Somehow I think people will still complain about something. Up through December, we had a diocesan priest handling the TLM. Our new bishop got the Institute of Christ the King to come in to serve the TLM full time. Guess what? Some of the parishoners wanted the FSSP priest friend to do it and now they’re complaining and still requesting that FSSP be allowed to take it over. Some are never happy!

Back to the point though…Even with the prime spots, attendance still couldn’t support more than one mass. That’s with some people driving a great distance for it. Our diocese is rather large and the interest just isn’t there for more masses.

 

[krazykatlady]

There is no Indult in my state, even though the bishop was presented with a petition a few years ago. I travel to Washington, DC fairly often and attend the Solemn High Mass at Old St. Mary’s. Eveytime I have attended it has been full. Many of them are young people. This gives me hope for the future of TLM.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

mgy100:

As far as small attendance, the place I go to has 600 people a sunday or more attending. One thing they should do, after all it is the Latin Rite of the church… is use more latin in the current mass. There is no reason they can’t, no one stopping them except the laziness and lack of commitment from the people to demand it and teach it. Latin isn’t hard, and really the responses aren’t hard either. We all know the current prayers so if they were said in latin, we’d almost all know exactly what they were saying anyway. And uh-oh, we’d actually have to teach the young kids something… i’d be the first to teach the kids in my parish or adults for that matter, I can play piano and organ and I would instruct the choir… yes, it can be done, but I’d have a lot of convincing to do in my parish… it is commitment that I think that would scare people the most, commitment to learning something different. Probably could start off slow with just basic responses and move from there If the priest couldn’t pronounce the Latin, I’d even teach him.

:clapping:

 

[Scotty_PGH]

Kielbasi:

St. Boniface is a church in a very odd location, adjacent to a very large and noisy superhighway, in an immediate neighborhood with less than 50 homes , most of those folks probably aren’t Catholic although I never took a religious census there, the few people I did know were German Lutherans living in wood shacks clinging to the edge of Spring Hill.

The diocese couldn’t have picked a less suitable location, and that’s the problem with the entire TLM issue. Its something which has been designed to fail.

I’m going to disagree with you on this one. The fact that it is right off of the 279 exit, makes it an ideal location! And the Church itself is magnificent inside and worthy of the TLM splendor.

 

[Kielbasi]

I’m going to disagree with you on this one. The fact that it is right off of the 279 exit, makes it an ideal location! And the Church itself is magnificent inside and worthy of the TLM splendor.

I can’t comment on what St. Boniface looks like on the inside, as I haven’t seen it.

But Pittsburgh has a great number of magnificent Catholic churches, many of them underused and easily accessible. St. Stanislaus in the Strip District and Holy Rosary in Homewood come immediately to mind. Unlike St. Boniface, both are in quite lively neighborhoods. And both are much more traditional looking buildings, Holy Rosary particularly, as it was the gothic- like work of the same architects who designed the East Liberty Presby Church.
St. Boniface nowadays is customarily driven past at 65 mph, but the building was designed to be driven past at 15 mph. If I didn’t already know it was a Catholic church, I’d have no idea. At 65 mph, it looks more like a mausoleum, appropriate I guess for a church located in a ghost town.

 

[katolik]

bear06:

Our TLM is at 12:30 and now we will have a daily 6PM. Somehow I think people will still complain about something. Up through December, we had a diocesan priest handling the TLM. Our new bishop got the Institute of Christ the King to come in to serve the TLM full time. Guess what? Some of the parishoners wanted the FSSP priest friend to do it and now they’re complaining and still requesting that FSSP be allowed to take it over. Some are never happy!

Back to the point though…Even with the prime spots, attendance still couldn’t support more than one mass. That’s with some people driving a great distance for it. Our diocese is rather large and the interest just isn’t there for more masses.

Yes, so when will your parish have a school and sunday Vespers and Benediction? SOme just had to complain and it was my turn

 

[katolik]

TNT:

I believe it’s in the North Side area. Unpaved parking lot. Yes I’ve attended. Marvelous inside. It had been scheduled for condemnation by the Hwy dept. The historical society took them (whoever) to court and won. That’s why the hwy is so close. It was not intended to survive there.
When I attended, it was standing room only, all veiled ladies, and chartered buses from Mich. OH, WV, NY, Central Pa. We came early and got a place right front.
I grew up at Holy Innocents parish in Sheriden. They have a Gorgeous Gothic Church. A pic of it is hanging in my hallway along with a dozen other historic beauties. I collect them.

ps I’ll assume you’re a pollock.

’
Its Polak! You have no right to insult one of my Polish brothers! Repent and forgive him for that insult! The sword is pointed at you head, repent, now!

 

[bear06]

sunday Vespers and Benediction?

We’ve got them. In fact, the pastor was just mentioning them yesterday.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

TNT,

In other words, you may not be a valid example of your point.

Perhaps not. But if you knew me, I simply go to the parish in my neighborhood. I can’t stand “church shopping” as I see this as yet another modernist tendancy.

Instead, I believe the parish is a geographical divison of the diocese. I don’t “church shop” for my parish any more than I “church shop” for my diocese. We are called to worship with the family we are given, not look for a better family. Families, at times, want to keep their crazy uncles somewhere out of sight, hidden in the attic. Yet, I think all the crazy uncles in my Catholic family are still the family God intended that I worship with.

I’m a catechists and an apologist. Some have called me an argumentarian. I prefer to stay put in the wacky desert of a liberal parish and fight for orthodoxy rather than to retreat to the oasis of an orthodox FSSP-celebrated liturgy 45 minutes away. Someone has to stay and fight for the faith. I figure that’s the cross that I should carry. If others would do the same, then I think the desert would start to bloom as it should.

 

[theMutant]

itsjustdave1988:

I prefer to stay put in the wacky desert of a liberal parish and fight for orthodoxy rather than to retreat to the oasis of an orthodox FSSP-celebrated liturgy 45 minutes away. Someone has to stay and fight for the faith. I figure that’s the cross that I should carry. If others would do the same, then I think the desert would start to bloom as it should.

Dave,

While you and I have disagreed on many points regarding the liturgy in other threads, I cannot agree with you more on this point. This is excellent advice for all faithful Catholics regardless of what liturgy you prefer. If those of us who truly believe what the Church teaches would make more stands at our own local parish, we could effect real change. Keep up the good fight!

 

[bear06]

I was actually thinking just the opposite -only because I have children to worry about. We do have an obedient Church that we attend to help make sure they are formed correctly. However, we do infiltrate other diocesan departments like marriage prep, etc.

It’s interesting when we, every once in awhile, have to attend one of the local parishes. Our kids talk about how “weird” it is.

Anyway, I’m of the mind that you build your ships in the harbor before you turn them out to the open sea. Before we had kids we did take the infilitrate tactic.

 

[CrusaderNY]

True, and I agree, but dont we have an obligation as Catholics to search for the truth, and when the church no longer teaches the truth, are we not obligated to teach our children the faith, the One True faith as handed down by our Church fathers.

The primary indefectibility of the Catholic church is in its doctrine. Faith considered, the deposit of Faith of sacred revealed doctrine is the foundation of the enture structure of the Catholic Church.

The church would defect if it
Ever changed her doctine
Ever altered or abandoned a monarhcial structure
If ever lost or substanitally lost her mission of teaching, ruling and sanctifying souls
If it lost or changed the power of orders

The teaching of indefectiblity is confirmed by two ecclesisstical documents. A Papal Bull Auctorem Fidei by Pope Paul VI in 1794 and Pope Leo XIII in his Encyclical Stais Cognitum

So, the question is asked, has the Vatican II church defected herself, as her doctrine as the One True Faith has been shattered as well as the introduction of the New Mass, which defied the Council of Trent.

theMutant:

Dave,

While you and I have disagreed on many points regarding the liturgy in other threads, I cannot agree with you more on this point. This is excellent advice for all faithful Catholics regardless of what liturgy you prefer. If those of us who truly believe what the Church teaches would make more stands at our own local parish, we could effect real change. Keep up the good fight!

 

[serendipity]

Lonevoice:

Personally, I think that the Latin Mass should be available in ALL parishes. I don’t think that it would be too hard to make sure that it didn’t drift off into dissent in the homilies, etc…

I think this is a good idea, but I don’t know how realistic it is. Where I live it is gropwing mroe and more difficult to find a mass even in English. There is only one Catholic church in the county, and the priest has driven away people in droves by his antipathy towards the youth and original parishners. There is an ever gowing group of Central American immigrants, and all of the masses are being said in Spanish, except for one a week on Sundays. The holidays are either bilingual or Spanish. Maybe the preist is more involved with the Spanish-speaking community, even though he is not a native Spanish-speaker. I would prefer Latin-only masses to Spanish-only masses, if we need to replace all English services. At least every one is doing a little bit of translating and it is more equitable.

I travel more than an hour to attend the next closest Catholic church when I can, where I can acutally learn something from the homilies and participate in acommunity that actually celebrates the mass, rather than appear to be there only because of fear of hell, which seems to be the motivation for the attendance at the English masses.

 

[katolik]

itsjustdave1988:

TNT,

Perhaps not. But if you knew me, I simply go to the parish in my neighborhood. I can’t stand “church shopping” as I see this as yet another modernist tendancy.

Instead, I believe the parish is a geographical divison of the diocese. I don’t “church shop” for my parish any more than I “church shop” for my diocese. We are called to worship with the family we are given, not look for a better family. Families, at times, want to keep their crazy uncles somewhere out of sight, hidden in the attic. Yet, I think all the crazy uncles in my Catholic family are still the family God intended that I worship with.

I’m a catechists and an apologist. Some have called me an argumentarian. I prefer to stay put in the wacky desert of a liberal parish and fight for orthodoxy rather than to retreat to the oasis of an orthodox FSSP-celebrated liturgy 45 minutes away. Someone has to stay and fight for the faith. I figure that’s the cross that I should carry. If others would do the same, then I think the desert would start to bloom as it should.

Sir,
Your eternal salvation is at stake, you shouldn’t think you’ll be able to change wacky priests. Your soul will suffer at a liberal parish and your only mission in life is to glorify God and come back home,that is to your heavenly home. Forget your earthly home, it will burn and the whole family will fall into ashes. Salvation is at stake!

 

[bear06]

So, the question is asked, has the Vatican II church defected herself, as her doctrine as the One True Faith has been shattered as well as the introduction of the New Mass, which defied the Council of Trent

Well, there you have it ladies and gentlemen. Take a good hard look at this post.

 

[CrusaderNY]

So who are you, the Pharises or Pontius Pilate asking the crowd (ladies and gentlemen) to judge my post? What do you want them to say…Ohh he is a Traditionalist, a St Pius X’er…Ohhh

I am not, so stop trying to play Johnnie Cochran and the “traditional sede card” as that is what liberal catholics wait for, as it is hard to defend a record of 40 years of failure.

I ask once again the following:

The church would defect if it:

1. Ever changed her doctine
2. Ever altered or abandoned a monarhcial structure
3. If ever lost or substanitally lost her mission of teaching, ruling and sanctifying souls
4. If it lost or changed the power of orders

The teaching of indefectiblity is confirmed by two ecclesisstical documents. A Papal Bull Auctorem Fidei by Pope Paul VI in 1794 and Pope Leo XIII in his Encyclical Stais Cognitum

Are we still saving souls, have we changed doctrine???

The answer is obvious

bear06:

Well, there you have it ladies and gentlemen. Take a good hard look at this post.

 

[TNT]

**CHURCHNY:
**

So, the question is asked, has the Vatican II church defected herself, as her doctrine as the One True Faith has been shattered as well as the introduction of the New Mass, which defied the Council of Trent

bear06:

Well, there you have it ladies and gentlemen. Take a good hard look at this post.

Be nice, my “sarcasm” posts are rubbing off on you!

Pretty soon you'll begin believing "ADMONISH THE SINNER" is a Church precept, yea, even an act of Charity!

…after all, he said “VATICAN II church” NOT “Roman Catholic Church”
I’ve used that term many times in my hypocracy posts. Also, Newchurch., all to dispell any idea of implying the “True Church of Christ” which IS the Roman Catholic Church. (PP XII)

He is likely talking about the one that has a SUBSISTed definition.
Kinda like the difference between Transubstantiation and Consubstantiation.

 

[bear06]

Are we still saving souls, have we changed doctrine???

You answered your own question when you said:

as her doctrine as the One True Faith has been shattered as well as the introduction of the New Mass, which defied the Council of Trent.

I, of course, disagree with you.

You can go ahead and throw out your Pharisee and Pontius Pilate statements all you want. If you think you’re correct then you should have no problem with me highlighting your statements. I imagine that anyone who didn’t see the fuss in the beginning is starting to understand completely.