The changes in the Mass came rapidly. My guess is that change is easier with R. Catholics than with E. Orthodox because there is one man at the top in Catholicism. With E. Orthodox, there are several Patriarchs, and they are not seen to have the same authority as a Catholic Pope?
Its ironic that same attitude of dissent is what caused the schism in the first place. How sad.
The Pope has already restored the liturgical tradition; it just has to grow and become fully integrated with the modern liturgy. I feel that a full restoration should happen within two generations. That is, there will be no ordinary and extraordinary forms, only a single form of the Roman Rite derived through an organic development; a true liturgy of the ages. This forty-year crisis has been but a blip in the church’s history; the church has fought its way through much tougher times.
The Orthodox have managed to keep all their traditions except one very critical one: the Petrine primacy. I’d rather sit through a clown Mass every Sunday than separate myself from the Successor of Peter.
Are the clown Masses, the cowboy Masses, the Halloween Masses, etc. still out there or not?
Have you read much of the history of what happened in 1054?
Abuses will always exist. I’m simply referring to the motu proprio. I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t take my words out of context directly after I’ve written them; try to be a bit more crafty
.Sure, there are disobedient Bishops! These things take time though. These Bishops will eventually die, to be replaced by younger, more traditionalist ones (I know this is a bit of a simplification).
You don’t seriously think there’s no liturgical abuse in the EO church, do you?? The Orthodox here never play it up, but abuse certainly exists. Look on youtube for a few. A missing iconostasis comes to mind…
Is that mostly in the RCC? Is it not also Cardinals?
It sounds very minor in th EOC and very major in the RCC.
I’ll admit, we’ve got alot more crazies to deal with. I honestly don’t know why…
yes, the same attitude to the attempted imposition of disfiguring innovation. How happy.
Then you have to reconcile yourself to the results. What if your next “Successor of Peter” is a promoter of clown masses? You’ve already had one at least, so you can’t say it won’t happen.
Do you have in mind a specific iconostasis that is missing in mind? Please post.
Impossible:
Joh 15:26 [same discourse, few verses up]. But when the Helper comes, Whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth Who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of me.
Yes, and when I go to my Catholic Church this morning, I won’t hear filioque.
And so we don’t, including the innovations from Spain.
I’m not. I believe in One, Holy, CATHOLIC and Apostolic Church. Say so everyday.
Same old statement that Jesus doesn’t send us the Holy Spirit. Spare me the bore because I know for a fact He does.
When did you become Catholic?
This attitude strikes me as saying that the Pope giveth tradition and he taketh it away. I don’t think this is how the ancient Church operated. The Pope is bound to obey and preserve Holy Tradition, not do what he wants with it. Even if the traditional Roman Liturgy is completely restored, the fact will remain that the Popes have attributed to themselves a power over Tradition that the ancient Faith never gave them. As long as this false understanding of the Papacy remains in the consciousness of your Church, we will still disagree.
Dauphin, a few days ago I posted a collection of quotes from past Roman Catholic popes, theologians and canonists that confirm the Orthodox belief that Popes can fall into heresy and lose the Papacy. This is what we believe has happened with the Popes of Rome since the Schism. We still believe in the Petrine Primacy as it was originally understood. However, this primacy and the Orthodox Roman See that accompanies it are currently being unexercised as we wait for a true Orthodox Pope to arrive. To deny the legitimacy of our stance is to condemn the many people in your Church that have taught this possibility. You may disagree with our assessment that the Popes of the last millennium have lost the Papacy, but our principle of resistance is valid and even provided for within the theological framework of Catholicism. In this case, the Successor of Peter separates himself from the Church as opposed to vice-versa.