Will anyone notice this Hate Crime

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Matt25 said:
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Do you think the majority of Muslims would be less horrified by this dreadful thing than Catholics are?
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Yes! I think the majority of Muslims think Christians are infadels and they have a right to kill us. I just go by what I read and see on TV. They were dancing in the streets of Palestine after 9/11. I know you are an appologist for Muslims and think they are very nice, I go by their actions not what you say. Where is the condemnation of this act from their leaders? If it had been a Muslim family ever Christian leader in the world would be condeming it.
 
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Matt25:
Do you think the majority of Muslims would be less horrified by this dreadful thing than Catholics are?
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Yes, so far I have not heard the outcry coming out of the international Muslim community. What percentage of imans have spoken out against it in the US? What percentage world wide?

What about the kidnapping of the archbishop?

Face it, Matt, it just doesn’t mean the same to them.
 
Matt25,
You can quote all of the documents you care to, all of the intefaith dialogue you care to and in the end, what does it amount to? Nothing. Islam has a history of making and breaking treaties as they see fit. The Koran even enocurages Muslims living in non-muslim lands to go along to get along until Islam dominates that area as well.
It’s a mindset like yours that allowed Hitler to blind Europe into subservience until it was too late. It’s a mindest like yours that actually believed Stalin at Yalta. It’s a mindset like yours like that’s allowed Muslim leaders to avoid any responsibility for the actions of Islamic terrorists (Beslan, 9/11, Madrid, or the asinine statement that the Tsunami was a judgement from Allah.) Keep reaching your hand out to the rabid dog and eventually you will be bitten.

I have been to Jersey City and walked those streets and looked into the eyes of the people who live there. How many militant muslims are you interacting with in Scotland? Have you read the Koran? Have you studied the Wahabbist sect? I don’t think you have, because if you had, you’d be far more concerned with their actions rather than throwing quotes and platitudes in an attempt to placate them. ***Do you understand that they will not accept anything less than the subjugation or death of all non-muslims? ***
 
Fox News is dealing with this tonight. It is very sad. The dad apparently made enemies in a chat room. This is really horrible.
 
This is quite illuminating:

Memri TV Project Previewmemri.org/video/images/memri_still_17.jpg
Excerpts From Arab and Iranian TV Broadcasts

Sermons from Iraqmemri.org/video/images/memri_still_12.jpg
Sermons from Iraq

A Knight Without a Horsememri.org/video/images/memri_still_11.jpg
A Knight Without a Horse
[Click here to read transcript](javascript: newWindow = openRemote( ‘segment11_knight_without_horse.html’, ‘’, ‘width=600,height=500,toolbar=0,location=0,directories=0,status=0,menuBar=0,scrollBars=1,resizable=1,left=80,top=20’ ); newWindow.focus()😉

more here:

memri.org/video/
 
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Matt25:
Yes I can but most of the contributions (“perhaps a crusade is in order”) on this thread seem incapable of expressing horror at an outrage without trying to stir up hatred against Muslims. Since hatred against Muslims is gravely sinful you want I should go along with the pogromists?
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Here we ago with the broad bursh of “you’re bad, bigoted, racists, and I am the only real Catholic.” Inciting hatred? Not at all, I want Islamic leaders to take a stand and state once and for all where they stand. The world demands no less of Catholics and Jews why should Islam get a pass? I bear Muslims no hate, in my profession hate is a weakness, it clouds judgement and causes you to make mistakes. I view radical Islam the way a surgeon views a cancerous tumor, a threat that needs to be excised no more no less. If radical Islamists can not be turned via conversion, they need to be met and defeated on the battlefield. Radical Islam has chosen to do battle.

Also, you need to work on word choice. Your use of the term pogromists (and who’s being inflammatory now?) is incorrect as a pogrom was the attempt to eradicate a minority for no other reason than the fact that they exist. The term is also usually applied to Jews. Tell me what a Jihad is other than a pogrom? Tell me of the pogrom against Christians and Jews that has been waged for over a thousand years in Muslim lands. If you need a lesson I recommend the book The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude by Bat Ye’or. I want no pogrom, I want Islam held to the same standards as the rest of the world and if its members refuse to do so, then we have every right to protect ourselves.
 
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Jeffrey:
Messages of hate they were. Wonder how Matt25 can spin the Muzzys outta this?
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How about by pointing out that there are a billion or so Muslims, and this is a sampling of a few stupid and hateful people, but doesn’t represent them all?

Do we Catholics accept responsibility for what Hitler did? After all, he WAS a Catholic!

Now someone will jump in and say “Well, he really wasn’t.” And aren’t the Muslims entitled to the same defense – that extremists and haters among them aren’t real Muslims?
 
vern humphrey:
How about by pointing out that there are a billion or so Muslims, and this is a sampling of a few stupid and hateful people, but doesn’t represent them all?

Do we Catholics accept responsibility for what Hitler did? After all, he WAS a Catholic!

Now someone will jump in and say “Well, he really wasn’t.” And aren’t the Muslims entitled to the same defense – that extremists and haters among them aren’t real Muslims?
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OK, I’ll buy that as soon as I hear the majority of imans condem the action.

I’m waiting…
 
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gilliam:
OK, I’ll buy that as soon as I hear the majority of imans condem the action.

I’m waiting…
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Just two points – first of all, no one has been identified as the killer yet. We don’t know that it was a case religious hatred – we only think it was.

Secondly, how would you “hear” of it? Will the media immediately report it? They don’t have a good record of reporting moderate statements by Muslims.
 
vern humphrey:
How about by pointing out that there are a billion or so Muslims, and this is a sampling of a few stupid and hateful people, but doesn’t represent them all?

Do we Catholics accept responsibility for what Hitler did? After all, he WAS a Catholic!

Now someone will jump in and say “Well, he really wasn’t.” And aren’t the Muslims entitled to the same defense – that extremists and haters among them aren’t real Muslims?
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We stopped Hitler, far too late but, we stopped him. We stopped Mussolini (another “catholic”) as well. Islam has done nothing to stop the extremists, they have given more and more authority to them. The only Imams listened to are the ones spewing hatred (the Imams who preach in Mecca are not calling for peace and understanding.) The Imams who do advocate a more peaceful moderate approach to the west are murdered. Islam is purfying itself becoming more and more a religion of hatred and intolerance every day. Mohammed, prophet or profiteer?
 
vern humphrey:
Just two points – first of all, no one has been identified as the killer yet. We don’t know that it was a case religious hatred – we only think it was.

Secondly, how would you “hear” of it? Will the media immediately report it? They don’t have a good record of reporting moderate statements by Muslims.
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They could do it the same way Christian preachers do it, and the same way they announce stuff in Arabia, get on TV. With everything happening now, they will get on, and they will get on immediately (the story hasn’t gotten cold yet).

They can all sign a letter and deliver it to the family. They can do all kinds of things. If they have the will that is.

I am still waiting…
 
vern humphrey:
How about by pointing out that there are a billion or so Muslims, and this is a sampling of a few stupid and hateful people, but doesn’t represent them all?

Do we Catholics accept responsibility for what Hitler did? After all, he WAS a Catholic!

Now someone will jump in and say “Well, he really wasn’t.” And aren’t the Muslims entitled to the same defense – that extremists and haters among them aren’t real Muslims?
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I don’t that can be a true comparision for one thing Hitler did not do his work in the name of Catholcism nor could he quote chapter and verse reasons to declare war on the non-teutonic world.
Many Islamic religious leader do this in the name of Allah and can quote the quran as their reason for Islamic jihad. There is something really defective in the Islamic faith whehter you admit this or not. Hitler was not a practicing catholic he was never confirmed by the way merely baptized as an infant. Many practicing Muslims in the name of Allah kill themsleves and innocents bystandards with approval of the Mullah and the Holy Quran. Try again.
 
The NYTimes reported that:

None of the tattoos were slashed.

There was cash/money missing from the house and victims.

Many prayers for the family.
 
New York Daily News - nydailynews.com Grief and anger
BY TAMER EL-GHOBASHY
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Tuesday, January 18th, 2005

Anger boiled over as thousands of mourners gathered in Jersey City yesterday for the funeral of an Egyptian Christian family found robbed and slain in their home. With authorities mum about their probe into the brutal crime, there is speculation in the Coptic community that the parents and their two daughters were killed because they were outspoken Christian Copts.

But others in the Coptic community angrily denounced the rumors, sparking fisticuffs as mourners carried the coffins of Hossam Armanious, 47, his 37-year-old wife, Amal Garas, and their daughters, Sylvia, 15, and Monica, 8, the short distance from Journal Square to the service.

“Islam is not a religion, Islam is not a religion,” shouted one man as he ran alongside the procession. As family members wailed in grief, some people held anti-Muslim signs like one that read, “American Family Beheaded on American Soil. Welcome Bin Laden.”

Inside St. George & St. Shenouda Coptic Orthodox Church, the rancor continued as Mayor Jerramiah Healy was interrupted by a man screaming “Muslim is the killer. Muslim is the killer.”

A small group of Muslims who attended condemned the killing.

“We feel this is something that was very far away from our community,” said Ahmed Sheded, president of the Islamic Center of Jersey City. “A real Muslim can’t do that. Any religious person who believes in God cannot do this, even to an animal.”

Inside the church, where the Armaniouses were active parishioners, clergy and friends spoke haltingly of a happy, pious family who immigrated to the U.S. from Egypt in 1997.

“I love you all and I will see you in heaven,” said family friend Emad Attaalla, who wept through his short eulogy. In front of him sat four copper-toned caskets, each adorned with a smiling portrait of the victims.

Prosecutors are “working on several different theories” as to what led to the massacre, a source said.

In New York, law enforcement sources acknowledged that a “distant relation” of the family had worked as a translator for the prosecution in a case against Lynne Stewart, the attorney for convicted terror kingpin Sheik Abdul Rahman. But they discounted any connection between that case and the murders.

Investigators have said that no money or jewelry was found in the Oakland Ave. home where the family was discovered Friday bound, gagged and stabbed to death. Some friends of Armanious believe he was targeted by Muslim extremists because he posted anti-Muslim statements on an Internet chat site.

Former Jersey City Mayor Bret Schundler drew applause and cries of “Amen!” when he said the police and FBI would find the killers.

The Coptic community has put up a $500,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of the killers.

“The Coptic community’s getting pretty restless,” noted Healy. “They want some answers.”
 
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Nichevo:
Tell me what a Jihad is other than a pogrom?
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In the linguistic sense, the Arabic word “jihad” means struggling or striving and applies to any effort exerted by anyone. In this sense, a student struggles and strives to get an education and pass course work; an employee strives to fulfill his/her job and maintain good relations with his/her employer; a politician strives to maintain or increase his(1) popularity with his constituents and so on. The term strive or struggle may be used for/by Muslims as well as non-Muslims; for example, Allah, the One and Only True God says in the Qur’an:
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*"We have enjoined on people kindness to parents; but if they strive (Jahadaka)   to make you ascribe partners with Me that of which you have no knowledge,   then obey them not..." *
(The Holy Quran, 29:8; also see 31:15) In the above two verses of the Qur’an , it is non-Muslim parents who strive (jahadaka) to convert their Muslim child back to their religion. In the West, “jihad” is generally translated as “holy war,” a usage the media has popularized. According to Islamic teachings, it is unholy to instigate or start war; however, some wars are inevitable and justifiable.

If we translate the words “holy war” back into Arabic, we find “harbun muqaddasatu,” or for “the holy war," "al-harbu al-muqaddasatu.” We challenge any researcher or scholar to find the meaning of “jihad” as holy war in the Qur’an or authentic Hadith collections or in early Islamic literature. Unfortunately, some Muslim writers and translators of the Qur’an, the Hadith and other Islamic literature translate the term “jihad” as “holy war,” due to the influence of centuries-old Western propaganda.

This could be a reflection of the Christian use of the term “Holy War” to refer to the Crusades of a thousand years ago. However, the Arabic words for “war” are “harb” or “qital,” which are found in the Qur’an and Hadith.

For Muslims the term Jihad is applied to all forms of striving and has developed some special meanings over time.
irshad.org/islam/iiie/iiie_18.htm
 
What I find most frightening about Gilliam’s videos was the clip where a so-called expert gets on Arab TV and says that Bin Laden is all a creation of the Americans. We purposely attacked ourselves with airliners in order to later invade Iraq. The host of the program says nothing to challenge this crazy assertion but nods and smiles.

I have read in many places that in the Arab world, the Zionists are blamed for 9-11, and the Jews are supposed to have killed Arafat, the Americans and the Jews created the tsunami. Where does the craziness end? How can we have peace with a people who are fed such hatred and insanity?

I think most Arabs and most Muslims want to live peacefully and mind their own business. I don’t think they are any worse than the next guy, but with this kind of media, turning out this hatred, what can we expect?
 
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Maccabees:
I don’t that can be a true comparision for one thing Hitler did not do his work in the name of Catholcism nor could he quote chapter and verse reasons to declare war on the non-teutonic world…
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Ah, so when a Catholic commits a crime, we get to say, “Well, he really WASN’T a Catholic?” But when a Muslim commits a crime, they don’t gete the same lattitude?

As for “chapter and verse,” anyone familiar with the Old Testament can find “proof texts” for wiping out one’s enemies.
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Maccabees:
Many Islamic religious leader do this in the name of Allah and can quote the quran as their reason for Islamic jihad. There is something really defective in the Islamic faith whehter you admit this or not. Hitler was not a practicing catholic he was never confirmed by the way merely baptized as an infant. Many practicing Muslims in the name of Allah kill themsleves and innocents bystandards with approval of the Mullah and the Holy Quran. Try again.
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It was a Catholic bishop who said, “Kill them all. God will know his own.”

Denouncing all members of a world-wide religion because some of its members have committed crimes is simply incompatible with Catholic teaching.
 
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Nichevo:
We stopped Hitler, far too late but, we stopped him. We stopped Mussolini (another “catholic”) as well. Islam has done nothing to stop the extremists,
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That is not true. Far more Muslims than Americans have been killed fighting on OUR side in this war. They have fought on our side in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, and in Iraq. Nations like Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Egypt have worked to root out Al Qaida, and have either dealt with those they caught, or turned them over to us. They have given us clandestine permission to operate inside their borders.

To say “Islam has done nothing,” is to turn a blind eye to what they have done.
 
vern humphrey:
That is not true. Far more Muslims than Americans have been killed fighting on OUR side in this war. They have fought on our side in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, and in Iraq. Nations like Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Egypt have worked to root out Al Qaida, and have either dealt with those they caught, or turned them over to us. They have given us clandestine permission to operate inside their borders.

To say “Islam has done nothing,” is to turn a blind eye to what they have done.
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Vern, I am speaking of Islamic leaders. I am well aware of those who have been fighting on our side (I was in Afghanistan for a good part of 2003), I am talking about the Imams in Mecca and Medina who condemn the west and call suicide bombers and terrorists martyrs, I am also talking about those who run the madrasas of Pakistan and those who preach hatred here in the United States especially in Jersey City and Patterson.

Matt25, you have done a commendable job of the literal definition of the word jihad and its arabic roots, shukran jazeelan. However, you don’t address the fact that it is muslims themselves who have corrupted the meaning of the word. There are two groups, Palestinian and Egyptian* "Islamic Jihad " *I doubt that they intend it to mean that they are engaged in a “holy struggle” with wonderful spiritual results. They are engaged in a pogrom, an attempt to elminiate Israel as a nation, and their spiritual leaders have called for an open season on westerners and all non-muslims.
 
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