Will anyone notice this Hate Crime

[Norwich]

To matt25.

Sorry about this buddy but what frightens me to death is that the few people on the thread who are so willing to create a holy war also have the potential fire power to do so. It’s a little like giving a two year old a machine gun and telling him to go play in the park.

You, like I, can condemn any and all atrocities until the cows come home and, I suspect that you like me feel extreme sorrow that such an event can be perpetrated and condemn outright such an INDIVIDUAL act. Unfortunately if you utter one word that contradicts the Gung Ho reaction, (not thought about, not considered, just “lets blast them of the face of the earth” reaction) and tries to point out that their are more moslems; all peace loving people who are interested only in celebrating their faith and raising their children who also condemn such actions you will get shouted down in the clamour for “revenge”.

What these people need to do (but won’t because it may be to close to home) is look at how the German nation was stirred up against the Jews, how the attitude and actions of people were subverted by the apparent need to “Revenge” all the atrocities against them, thats good CATHOLIC people, how they were conned into killing 6,000,000 Jews based on the premise they were ALL the villians of society.

This is going to be my only post to this thread because I am sick to the stomach with the ANTI CATHOLIC rhetoric that is being spewed out. And for those that resent this description, just go back and read what some of you have suggested, from killing moslems to a Holy War. It would appear that any reference to the Holy See is immediatley ignored (unless of course it upholds an argument) and any reference to the teachings of the Church is secondary to the need for “Revenge”

I thank God and our Lord Jesus Christ that I don’t belong to these individuals Churches. The sooner either their Parish Priest or their Bishop gets a grip of them the better. The thought of this lot ruling the world is beyond imagination.

 

[gilliam]

I love it when people post slurs and then say they won’t post anymore so as to discurage debate. :bowdown:

 

[Trelow]

Men! To your mounts!
http://www.rkei.net/images/knight.gif

 

[shannon_e]

Lance:

… Where is the condemnation of this act from their leaders?..

The Muslims who attended the funeral in order to condemn the attack and to pay their respects were threatened and cursed. I shudder to think of what would have happened if the police hadn’t of acted quickly.

Nichevo:

…I bear Muslims no hate, in my profession hate is a weakness, it clouds judgement and causes you to make mistakes. I view radical Islam the way a surgeon views a cancerous tumor, a threat that needs to be excised no more no less…

That is scary. Maybe you don’t hate them (as you claim) because you have ceased to view them as people. That is a first step to a holocaust: Dehumanization.
We saw it with the Jews, and we see it with babies.
IMHO you need to be very careful and pray that your heart is not hardened.

Peace

 

[Nichevo]

shannon e:

That is scary. Maybe you don’t hate them (as you claim) because you have ceased to view them as people. That is a first step to a holocaust: Dehumanization.
We saw it with the Jews, and we see it with babies.
IMHO you need to be very careful and pray that your heart is not hardened.Peace

Had you read any of my other posts, you would know that I spent time in Afghanistan and other parts of the middle east. I worked with members of the Northern Alliance who were determined to build a nation from the ashes of a radical muslim theocracy. I watched as some buried family members killed by the Taliban and watched as some were buried. I am more aware of their humanity than you could ever imagine. I am also aware of the inhumanity that radical Islam is capable of. The first step to a holocaust was what the taliban was engaged in, the removal of those who disagreed with their beliefs (similiar to the actions of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge.)

As you don’t know me and I don’t know you, I would like to consider this a misunderstanding. Peace be with you and with your spirit.

 

[shannon_e]

Nichevo:

What’s scary is your amateur attempt at psychoanalysis. Had you read any of my other posts, you would know that I spent time in Afghanistan and other parts of the middle east. I worked with members of the Northern Alliance who were determined to build a nation from the ashes of a radical muslim theocracy. I watched as some buried family members killed by the Taliban and watched as some were buried. I am more aware of their humanity than you could ever imagine. I am also aware of the inhumanity that radical Islam is capable of. The first step to a holocaust was what the taliban was engaged in, the removal of those who disagreed with their beliefs (similiar to the actions of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge.)

As you don’t know me and I don’t know you, I would like to consider this a misunderstanding. Peace be with you and with your spirit.

Glad to hear that it was just that post that came across that way.
Peace to you.

 

[Nichevo]

Norwich,
I have spent enough time on enough threads proving you wrong that it is no longer worth the time. you resort to the typical liberal “I’m holier and smarter than you, therefore you need my prayers and pity.” You can call my pastor and my Bishop I’ll give you the numbers, but I encourage you to work on the growing paganism in yuor own country first. You’re unwilling to debate as you can answer facts with only so many insults before your rhetoric wears thin. Be careful, it’s a long fall from that high of a horse.

 

[Nichevo]

A Final Thought:

Norwich:

I thank God and our Lord Jesus Christ that I don’t belong to these individuals Churches. The sooner either their Parish Priest or their Bishop gets a grip of them the better. The thought of this lot ruling the world is beyond imagination.

“The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself;’ O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity- greedy, dishonest, adulterous- or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But, the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heavenbut beat his breast and prayed,‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” Luke 18:11-14

 

[Jeffrey]

Nice holier than thuo attitude. It is this attitude that the Muzzys are using to take away Spain right now. :tsktsk:

Norwich:

To matt25.

Sorry about this buddy but what frightens me to death is that the few people on the thread who are so willing to create a holy war also have the potential fire power to do so. It’s a little like giving a two year old a machine gun and telling him to go play in the park.

You, like I, can condemn any and all atrocities until the cows come home and, I suspect that you like me feel extreme sorrow that such an event can be perpetrated and condemn outright such an INDIVIDUAL act. Unfortunately if you utter one word that contradicts the Gung Ho reaction, (not thought about, not considered, just “lets blast them of the face of the earth” reaction) and tries to point out that their are more moslems; all peace loving people who are interested only in celebrating their faith and raising their children who also condemn such actions you will get shouted down in the clamour for “revenge”.

What these people need to do (but won’t because it may be to close to home) is look at how the German nation was stirred up against the Jews, how the attitude and actions of people were subverted by the apparent need to “Revenge” all the atrocities against them, thats good CATHOLIC people, how they were conned into killing 6,000,000 Jews based on the premise they were ALL the villians of society.

This is going to be my only post to this thread because I am sick to the stomach with the ANTI CATHOLIC rhetoric that is being spewed out. And for those that resent this description, just go back and read what some of you have suggested, from killing moslems to a Holy War. It would appear that any reference to the Holy See is immediatley ignored (unless of course it upholds an argument) and any reference to the teachings of the Church is secondary to the need for “Revenge”

I thank God and our Lord Jesus Christ that I don’t belong to these individuals Churches. The sooner either their Parish Priest or their Bishop gets a grip of them the better. The thought of this lot ruling the world is beyond imagination.

 

[Maccabees]

vern humphrey:

Ah, so when a Catholic commits a crime, we get to say, “Well, he really WASN’T a Catholic?” But when a Muslim commits a crime, they don’t gete the same lattitude?

As for “chapter and verse,” anyone familiar with the Old Testament can find “proof texts” for wiping out one’s enemies.

It was a Catholic bishop who said, “Kill them all. God will know his own.”

Denouncing all members of a world-wide religion because some of its members have committed crimes is simply incompatible with Catholic teaching.

You can’t find any instance in the Bible where it recommends killing Muslims or Jews in the Quran it explicitly calls for killing of Jews and Christians. I hardly think a passage of the Jews battling the Canaanites have the same literal punch for Christians as does the Quran have for jihadist. You have to dileberatly misinterpret OT text for a jihad. In the Quran the obvious and literal meaning of jihad is a holy war on infedels. Its there all but the most jaded will admit this. And no Hitler was neither a confirmed or practicing catholic the Isalmist kill the the name of their relgion and are in good standing with their relgion stop this stupid comaparison. You show a limited intellect in comparing jihadist with Hitler. Hitler practiced the occult and created a cult following known as Nazism it was not Christiantiy. Islamist kill while practing their relgion big difference. I didn’t denounce all Muslims I denounced the literlal interpretation of the Quran as being peaceful. I think such an interpretation leads to violence the entire histroy of this religion into modern times demonstrates this. Your ignorance is beyond tolerance but into denial.

 

[Matt25]

New Jersey murders prompt Arab group condemnation
19 Jan 2005 00:16:18 GMT

Source: Reuters
 		    		     NEW YORK, Jan 18 (Reuters) - A leading Arab-American group on Tuesday tried to defuse tensions between Egyptian Christians and Muslims in the New York metro area following the murder of a family of four last week in Jersey City, New Jersey. Emotions ran high at Monday's funeral as police and the FBI continued to investigate the massacre of an Egyptian Christian family found on Friday in their home bound, gagged and stabbed in the throats. Robbery was a suspected motive after police found the house was looted, although some members of the Copt community said Hossam Armanious, his wife, Amal Garas, and daughters Sylvia, 15, and Monica, 8, who immigrated to the United States in 1997, might have been victims of a hate crime by Islamic militants. Hossam Armanious had engaged in heated debate about Islam  on a religious Web site, according to some family members. "Any crime against civilians regardless of motive or justification contravene the covenants of all world religions and the civilized world," Aref Assaf, president of the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee of New Jersey, said in a statement. "Ethnic or sectarian motives must be rejected as a justification for taking human life," he said. "Religious and community leaders must unequivocally condemn the crime and the perpetrators

 

[vern_humphrey]

Maccabees:

You can’t find any instance in the Bible where it recommends killing Muslims or Jews .

It would be strange if the Bible did recommend killing Muslims or Jews – since the authors of all the books of the Bible (with the exception of Luke) were Jews – and the last book of the New Testament was written about 500 years before Mohammed’s birth.

I can, however, find plenty of instances of the Jews being commanded to kill their enemies – including non-combatants.

Maccabees:

I didn’t denounce all Muslims I denounced the literlal interpretation of the Quran as being peaceful. I think such an interpretation leads to violence the entire histroy of this religion into modern times demonstrates this. Your ignorance is beyond tolerance but into denial.

I think your claim to be able to interpret the Quran FOR Muslims is beyond intolerance and into plain bigotry.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Nichevo:

Vern, I am speaking of Islamic leaders. I am well aware of those who have been fighting on our side (I was in Afghanistan for a good part of 2003), I am talking about the Imams in Mecca and Medina who condemn the west and call suicide bombers and terrorists martyrs, I am also talking about those who run the madrasas of Pakistan and those who preach hatred here in the United States especially in Jersey City and Patterson.

There is no question that some Muslims have supported terrorism. Just as there is no question that some Christians have supported everything from African slavery to a modern “Crusade.” We don’t accept being branded with the ideas of these radicals, yet we expect all Muslims to accept guilt for what a few of their co-religionists do.

Muslim religious leaders HAVE denounced terrorism. They HAVE said Iraqis have a religious duty to vote. And some American Muslim leaders have denounced this particular homicide.

 

[gilliam]

Jihad Watch received some inside information from a close friend of Hossam Armanious, the Coptic Christian brutally murdered in New Jersey along with his family: Inside information on the New Jersey murders.

 

[shannon_e]

gilliam:

Jihad Watch received some inside information from a close friend of Hossam Armanious, the Coptic Christian brutally murdered in New Jersey along with his family: Inside information on the New Jersey murders.

The source is “a close friend”? Then the source ought to be supplying whatever info they have to the police. When it’s corroborated thru an official investigation-- then I’ll be more comfortable with this inside info. Until then, it’s still theoretical.

 

[Matt25]

**Newsday | Long Island's & NYC's News Source | Newsday
**

**
**

Prosecutor: No proof religious hatred to blame for family’s murder

By WAYNE PARRY
Associated Press Writer January 24, 2005, 4:54 PM EST

NEWARK, N.J. – Authorities investigating the stabbing deaths of an Egyptian immigrant family said Monday they have not found any evidence so far indicating the four Jersey City residents were slain over a religious dispute.

The possibility of a religious grudge, which has strained relations between Muslims and Christians in the area, still is being investigated, said Hudson County Prosecutor Edward DeFazio.

“Certainly, based on the viciousness of the attacks, we think there’s more than taking the money that was in the apartment,” DeFazio said.

Shortly after the bound and gagged bodies were found Jan. 14, friends of the family circulated word that Armanious had angered Muslims with Internet postings in a religious chat room.

The claims led to widespread tension between Christians and Muslims in Jersey City, which led to numerous scuffles at the family’s funeral earlier this month. But authorities said nothing so far supports the theory.

“Is it possible? Yes,” DeFazio said. “Do we have anything that gives us reason to believe this is what it was, factually? No. Nothing indicates that was the prime motivation for this. That we can clearly say.”

Magdy Mahmoud, president of the Council on American-Islamic Relations’ New Jersey chapter, was one of about a dozen Muslim leaders who called on the community last week to refrain from speculating on a motive in the killings.

On Monday he said he was pleased to hear that no evidence of religious bias had been found.

“We expected this to be the case,” Mahmoud said. “As we said last week, all religious groups should stand in solidarity, especially in times like this when fear and grief are being spread among the community.”

DeFazio said no motive has been established in the case. In addition to the Internet theory, investigators continue to look at robbery as a possible motive because the home was ransacked and money was taken from the victims. Detectives are reviewing the family’s finances to see if there are any obvious motives.

Hudson authorities have enlisted the FBI to scrutinize the family’s activities in Egypt before they came to this country in 1997.

“It could be that it’s a vendetta that might go back to the old country,” DeFazio said. “We’re going to try to look into that.”

A spokesman for the FBI’s Newark office did not immediately return a call seeking comment Monday.

 

[Norwich]

gilliam:

Jihad Watch received some inside information from a close friend of Hossam Armanious, the Coptic Christian brutally murdered in New Jersey along with his family: Inside information on the New Jersey murders.

Jihad watch,aren’t they those nice people who simply report everything in a straight forward unbiased manner?

Latest information seems to be pointing towards a very different reasoning to this crime. If it proves not to be Moslems are all those who condemned the act as a sectarian outrage by Moslems going to apologise?

 

[aimee]

Norwich:

Jihad watch,aren’t they those nice people who simply report everything in a straight forward unbiased manner?

Latest information seems to be pointing towards a very different reasoning to this crime. If it proves not to be Moslems are all those who condemned the act as a sectarian outrage by Moslems going to apologise?

Good Morning Norwich,

Looks like you have an early start…
Lets see…

" If it proves not to be Moslems are all those who condemned the act as a sectarian outrage by Moslems going to apologise?"

If it proved to be will you apologise? Or, just not believe it

 

[Lance]

I have a few questions for Matt25 and Norwich, I asked these same questions of St. James, another appologist for Islam and anti-American, but he refused to answer.
Do you condone or condemn the Palestinians, Chechens, and Kashmiris who give up their lives to kill enemy civilians?
Will you condemn by name as terrorist such groups as Abu Sayyaf, Al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya, Hamas, Hizbulla, Islamic Jihad and al-Qaida?
Should Muslim women have equal rights with men (i.e. in inheritance shares or court testamony)?
Do you accept the validity of other religions?
Do Muslims have anything to learn from the West?
Should non-Muslims enjoy completely equal civil rights with Muslims in Muslim countries?
May Muslims convert to other religions?
May Muslim women marry non-Muslim men?

 

[Matt25]

I have a few questions for Matt25 and Norwich, I asked these same questions of St. James, another appologist for Islam and anti-American, but he refused to answer.
Do you condone or condemn the Palestinians, Chechens, and Kashmiris who give up their lives to kill enemy civilians?

By giving up their lives do you mean being killed in action like US marines or do you mean suicide bombings? Since I am a Catholic and since Catholicism condemns suicide as a mortal sin it follows that I do not condone such acts.

Will you condemn by name as terrorist such groups as Abu Sayyaf, Al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya, Hamas, Hizbulla, Islamic Jihad and al-Qaida?

Not collectively no. Take them one at a time. I am a pacifist so I object to all violent acts such groups commit. On the other hand I do not condemn palestinechronicle.com/story.php?sid=20030715194159971 "The Islamic Resistance Movement “Hamas” has an infrastructure network, which provides medical care, food, and schooling to thousands of Palestinians hardly hit by poverty under the 36-year old Israeli occupation. "

Should Muslim women have equal rights with men (i.e. in inheritance shares or court testamony)?

Yes, in secular courts. Muslim women also should have the freedom to waive their rights for religious reasons if they choose

Do you accept the validity of other religions?

I support Nostra Aetate ourladyswarriors.org/teach/nostaeta.htm promulgated at Vatican II
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,[5] who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

Do Muslims have anything to learn from the West?
Should non-Muslims enjoy completely equal civil rights with Muslims in Muslim countries?
May Muslims convert to other religions?
May Muslim women marry non-Muslim men?

To learn and to teach is the role of all the great religions. Civil Rights should apply in Morrocco as in Guantanamo. Conversion and marriage should be purely private matters. My brother and sister in law are a Catholic/Protestant marriage and certain family members have never spoken to them since the day of their wedding in 1991