Will Billy Graham go to heaven?

[TylerAlex]

Tyler, what you’re attempting to do is take Catholic teaching out of context. You’re quoting parts of Catholic documents, again out of context, in a failed attempt to paint the Church as incorrect. If you go back to post # 20, your answer is that Billy Graham, as well as every Christian, IS a member of the “Catholic Church”. By official Catholic teaching. They may not follow the teachings of the formal Church, and as such are in danger, but they are in fact members of the Catholic Church.

Then help me out.

I started by declaring my ignorance in these matters and was looking for guidance. I make no claim to my knowledge here, I am trying simply to help move the argument along to help find answers.

Why would/wouldn’t the doctrine of No Salvation Outside the Church apply here?

Edit:

I reviewed post #20, and then consulted the Catechism where it states the definition of Catholic Church as: the Church established by Christ on the foundation of the Apostles, possesing the fullness of the means of salvation which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession.

This definition appears to be more limiting and exact than the one you may have used.

 

[Redbandito]

Just because Catholicism has declared that salvation outside of Catholicism is not possible, does not mean that God has declared this…

For starters, this is not what the Church has declared. “No salvation outside of the Church” is not synonomous with “no salvation outside of Catholicism.” Although, they are pretty closely connected. However, even if it was, your statement merely begs the question. Since the Catholic Church is the mouthpiece of God (at least by claim), then what the Church claims, God claims. This is either right or wrong. Yet, if it is right, they are one and the same. Remember, “What you BIND on EARTH, will be BOUND in HEAVEN.”

God does not give man the authority to set the rules for Him…

Mozart, you know better than this. I know you know, because we have had discussions. You know very well the Catholic Church claims no such thing.

Just because Cyprian of Carthage made some statements before the church divided upon itself does not necessarily mean he would make the same statements after the division…

But it doesn’t mean he wouldn’t either. I would tend to stick with what the guy said as precedent, since there were many people who dissented in doctrine in his time as well. They were referred to as heretics. At the time, the Reformers were referred to as the same. Thus, I have no reason to believe Cyprian wouldn’t have maintained such a stance. What reason do you have, but convenience?

Oh, and one more thing. Pope JP, unlike the busybodies here, actually had interaction with Billy Graham. And surprise, surprise…from all accounts Pope JP considered Billy Graham his brother in Christ (and vice versa)…

Are you having a bad night Mozart? “Busybodies?” Who has uttered one bad word about Billy Graham here? All I have heard is that we cannot know for certain he is saved. Surprise, surprise! I don’t even believe I can have an absolute certainty that I am. Why would I say such a thing about another person. St. Paul warned against this in 1 Cor 4:3-5.

Now if Pope JP was apparantly unconcerned about Billy Graham’s eternal soul, what right do you have to question his eternal destiny.

What? Simply affirming someone is a “brother in Christ” is not synonomous with having concern about that person’s soul. Furthermore, while I have a great deal of respect for Pope JPII, his personal opinions are just that, personal opinions. He is not infallible over any opinion he forms. This charism extends only to matters of the faith, and morals, period.

 

[Redbandito]

BTW Mozart, this whole thread is completely subjective. Why are you so antagonistic towards people giving their honest opinions. I have not heard any hate towards Protestants spewed here. Least of all towards Billy Graham. Please explain your anger.

 

[Redbandito]

And in case you don’t believe me, here is an article from Christianity Today.

You guys are doubting your own Pope!

I believed you. Yet, that does not mean that Pope JPII was starting the process of canonization for Billy Graham. I too believe Billy is a brother in Christ, since he too was “baptized into one body” (1 Cor 12:13). Yet, that does not mean I believe either my salvation or Billy’s is secured beyond all doubt.

 

[Tom]

Then help me out.

I started by declaring my ignorance in these matters and was looking for guidance. I make no claim to my knowledge here, I am trying simply to help move the argument along to help find answers.

That’s why I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is official Catholic teaching. It explains the “no salvation outside of the Catholic Church”. In essence every single human born is a member of the body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. So what does the statement attempt to impress? To follow the teachings of the Catholic Church. Simply being a member of any organization does not guarantee salvation. Since every individual is born into the Catholic Church, every individual is not guaranteed salvation by membership. If you follow the teachings of the Church you’ll be saved. Please, please. please. go to :scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
type in your question in the search and read the actual teaching of the Church.

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

Assuming Billy Graham continues to profess his current beliefs without a conversion to the Catholic Faith, do you believe he will go to heaven?

I am looking for an apologetic argument for or against.

Thanks!

It is impossible to truly determine anyones fate, not even Hitler’s or Stalin’s.

But in the hyptothetical situation that Billy Graham truly rejects Catholic Truth and holds his beliefs to be the authentic Christian faith, provided as well that he does not convert or even consider the possibility of a conversion…it doesnt look very good for him.

But since we cannot know for certain what he believes, the ‘public’ Billy Graham (that is the Mr. Graham who believes only that which he has publicaly taught) does not have a bright future ahead of him.

We cannot be certain however, but we know that God is merciful.

We must make sure to remember that Mercy is not the same thing as sympathy. God pities and feels sympathy for all creation, but his Mercy is only for those who are willing to accept it.

If Billy Graham has been offered God’s Mercy and grace here on earth, which I imagine most Protestant Theologians have encountered once or twice (most likely more) or if he had come into contact with a convincing account of the true Catholic Theology, yet rejected it…well it just doesn’t look very good.

Provided that he was Baptized validy, that improves his chances a bit.

 

[TylerAlex]

That’s why I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is official Catholic teaching. It explains the “no salvation outside of the Catholic Church”. In essence every single human born is a member of the body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. So what does the statement attempt to impress? To follow the teachings of the Catholic Church. Simply being a member of any organization does not guarantee salvation. Since every individual is born into the Catholic Church, every individual is not guaranteed salvation by membership. If you follow the teachings of the Church you’ll be saved. Please, please. please. go to :scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
type in your question in the search and read the actual teaching of the Church.

Thank you. I own a copy and have it right here in my hands. My understanding is that each one of us was born with God’s grace… but an acceptance into the Catholic Church was a specific and defined will of the person.

Am I wrong?

The definition I found at the back for Catholic Church was: the Church established by Christ on the foundation of the Apostles, possesing the fullness of the means of salvation which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession.

This definition seems to be much more limiting and defined than the one you used.

 

[mozart-250]

BTW Mozart, this whole thread is completely subjective. Why are you so antagonistic towards people giving their honest opinions. I have not heard any hate towards Protestants spewed here. Least of all towards Billy Graham. Please explain your anger.

Sure I can explain…

I see the title of the thread…and I react “What the…”

Then I read a few of the posts here on Billy Graham and I react…"What the…they are actually doubting his salvation.

Then I read the quotes from Cyprian and I react…“What the…are they saying Billy will not be in heaven because he is not Catholic??”

Then I look up quotes from JP and I react…What’s up with this? Pope JP was apparantly so unconcerned about Billy Graham’s eternal destiny that Pope JP called Billy Graham his brother. What’s up with anonymous Catholic people doubting whether Billy Graham goes to heaven when their own pope consideres Billy his brother. Who am I supposed to believe, anonymous Catholic people or their pope (whom I really do like)?

I’m sorry I appear angry, but its stuff like this that really lights my firecracker. I’m gonna go to bed now and I’ll feel better in the morning.

 

[TylerAlex]

It is impossible to truly determine anyones fate, not even Hitler’s or Stalin’s.

But in the hyptothetical situation that Billy Graham truly rejects Catholic Truth and holds his beliefs to be the authentic Christian faith, provided as well that he does not convert or even consider the possibility of a conversion…it doesnt look very good for him.

But since we cannot know for certain what he believes, the ‘public’ Billy Graham (that is the Mr. Graham who believes only that which he has publicaly taught) does not have a bright future ahead of him.

We cannot be certain however, but we know that God is merciful.

We must make sure to remember that Mercy is not the same thing as sympathy. God pities and feels sympathy for all creation, but his Mercy is only for those who are willing to accept it.

If Billy Graham has been offered God’s Mercy and grace here on earth, which I imagine most Protestant Theologians have encountered once or twice (most likely more) or if he had come into contact with a convincing account of the true Catholic Theology, yet rejected it…well it just doesn’t look very good.

Provided that he was Baptized validy, that improves his chances a bit.

This answer… I believe… is probably the closest we are going to come quite frankly.

But don’t you find it truly remarkable, that a man such as Billy Graham and all he has accomplished… could have his salvation at considerable risk?

That is why I find this topic so interesting.

 

[Tom]

My understanding is that each one of us was born with God’s grace… but an acceptance into the Catholic Church was a specific and defined will of the person.

Am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. Please read the CCC PART ONE, SECTION TWO, CHAPTER THREE, ARTICLE 9
Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic

 

[TylerAlex]

I’m sorry I appear angry, but its stuff like this that really lights my firecracker. I’m gonna go to bed now and I’ll feel better in the morning.

I am sorry… I never meant for it to make anyone angry. Most of all, I never wanted it to become offensive to the wonderful man that Billy Graham is and all that he is accomplished.

I had a serious question to ask… because it has direct implications for many, many wonderful Christian friends/family I love that are not Catholics.

Please sleep in peace!

 

[Redbandito]

Sure I can explain…

I see the title of the thread…and I react “What the…”

Then I read a few of the posts here on Billy Graham and I react…"What the…they are actually doubting his salvation.

Then I read the quotes from Cyprian and I react…“What the…are they saying Billy will not be in heaven because he is not Catholic??”

Then I look up quotes from JP and I react…What’s up with this? Pope JP was apparantly so unconcerned about Billy Graham’s eternal destiny that Pope JP called Billy Graham his brother. What’s up with anonymous Catholic people doubting whether Billy Graham goes to heaven when their own pope consideres Billy his brother. Who am I supposed to believe, anonymous Catholic people or their pope (whom I really do like)?

I’m sorry I appear angry, but its stuff like this that really lights my firecracker. I’m gonna go to bed now and I’ll feel better in the morning.

Mozart, it was not a Catholic that started this thread. Thus, to react in such a way is unjust. A Protestant asked a legit question seeing how the Church does have a doctrine that “there is no salvation outside the Church.” And Catholics have given various opinions. I, for one, remain consistent when asked about anyone’s salvation (including my own). I state, I cannot know for certain. I believe people like Billy Graham will probably be saved. Yet, I cannot say this with absolute assurance any more than I can say this about myself. You know that Catholic doctrine teaches there is no absolute assurance, so why are you surprised to find Catholics applying this consistently?

Anyway, I hope you have a good night’s rest. I will be praying for your health. God bless!

Josh

 

[Tom]

I am sorry… I never meant for it to make anyone angry. Most of all, I never wanted it to become offensive to the wonderful man that Billy Graham is and all that he is accomplished. I had a serious question to ask… because it has direct implications for many, many wonderful Christian friends/family I love that are not Catholics. Please sleep in peace!

Tyler. all of those “wonderful Christian friends” are members of the Catholic Church according to Catholic Church teaching. Does that mean they are assured of their salvation? No. Nor are any Popes assured their salvation. They ( your many wonderful Christian friends / family) probably would be insulted by be called “Catholic”, oh well! We’re dealing with Catholic teaching and Catholic definitions. Billy Graham is, in MHO, a wonderful human, a great Christian, I’d give him an equal possibility of salvation with Pope John Paul, but ya know what? I’m not the judge of either the pope or Billy. Billy is a member of the Catholic Church, as well as you are a member. Unfortunately you’re both separated from the full teaching. I pray you will both come home.

 

[TylerAlex]

Yes, you are wrong. Please read the CCC PART ONE, SECTION TWO, CHAPTER THREE, ARTICLE 9
Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic

Tom, to be fair there are over a dozen pages that discuss what church and Church mean, to help gauge an understanding.

But authoritatively, Number 816, page 215 states:

“The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him.”

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.”

 

[Tom]

Tom, to be fair there are over a dozen pages that discuss what church and Church mean, to help gauge an understanding.

Tyler, excuse my analogy, but you seem to want the “drive thru” religion. Just give the Readers Digest version, I’m too busy to read it myself. A dozen pages are too much for you to read? You’d make a good Catholic. Seriously, you want the truth without the work? Join the Catholic Church. They teach the truth. You want the truth without the work? The Catholic Church has the authority.

 

[TylerAlex]

Tyler, excuse my analogy, but you seem to want the “drive thru” religion. Just give the Readers Digest version, I’m too busy to read it myself. A dozen pages are too much for you to read? You’d make a good Catholic. Seriously, you want the truth without the work? Join the Catholic Church. They teach the truth. You want the truth without the work? The Catholic Church has the authority.

Tom… you aren’t being fair. I read ALL THE PAGES! But you took one paragraph from it and basically stated that the Catholic Church or Church meant all people in the world. Those pages clearly discuss that there is much more to it than that.

**You made a personal attack on my faith and that was not fair and I find it very offensive! **

I am a Catholic thank you very much.

Looking back on response number 20, it is clear there is a distinction between the Church (all Christians) and the Catholic Church (governing body that oversees and unites all Christians).

Getting back on topic.

Perhaps what you are saying is that some Christians are separated from the Catholic Church… but that does not make them members in reality… does it?

Isn’t that what the doctrine gets at?

 

[Tom]

**You made a personal attack on my faith and that was not fair and I find it very offensive. **

Tyler, I apologize, I did not mean to offend. In respect to the teaching of no salvation outside of the Catholic Church, as stated in the Catechism, the definition of the Catholic Church must be understood to be the broadest sense. With the understanding that Billy Graham, (your initial question,) is a member of the “Catholic Church”, according the official teaching of the Church, the answer to your question is there is nothing in official Church teaching which would preclude Billy Graham from being saved. There is no distinction between the Church and the Catholic Church, the Church IS the Catholic Church. Again being a member of the “church” does not guarantee anyone salvation, nor does being “separated”, in and of itself, guarantee damnation.

 

[mercygate]

Kaycee, that’s bologna. Quit trying to play the expert on the Catholic doctrine here. Only those who did not understand the doctrine of “There is no salvation outside of the Church” would have said that.

Exactly. Remember Fr. Feeney? He was excommunicated in the 1930s for preaching that only Roman Catholics could be saved.

 

[TylerAlex]

There is no distinction between the Church and the Catholic Church, the Church IS the Catholic Church. Again being a member of the “church” does not guarantee anyone salvation, nor does being “separated”, in and of itself, guarantee damnation.

But the Catholic Church does draw distinctions. In fact, the pure fact that it has doctrines on schisms and heresy clearly shows that. At some point, one can or could be separated from the Catholic Church for a variety of reasons.

Once there is separation, depending on the degree or severity, there are implications for the individual or movement. In my topic, the risk of losing one’s salvation are in greater question.

Any one else want to tackle this one… that there are/are not real distinctions within the Church…, and, as a result, there are implications for many of those distinctions?

 

[JWilson]

“The church” as mentioned in the Bible is not the Catholic Church.Christ’s church is referring to His followers.Billy Graham will never join the Catholic church so I guess many catholics think he will not make it to heaven?We often refer to a church as a building but if you could never step foot in an actual building as some countries forbid,would that mean you are not going to heaven?Funny how we don’t refer to ourselves as the protestant church.The term catholic nor protestant is not mentioned in the Bible.It really separates us by using those terms.I believe catholics and protestants are Christians if they repent of their sins,believe Jesus is the Son of God,be baptized and follow Him.Can we not all agree on that?“The Church” is all who believe that.I believe Billy Graham is going to heaven just as much as I believe the pope is but really only God can judge them.