Will faithful be taught liturgical prayers in Latin and sing Greg. Chant?

[JimR-OCDS]

Brendan

As I mentioned before, children learn these responses. I hardly consider my 7 year old to be a member of the ‘intellectual elite’ So yes, maybe people without less reasoning ablilty than a 7 year old would be exempt from Vatican II’s instructions in this matter

Less reasoning of a 7 year old? Pulease!

Heck, St. Theresa of Lisieux’s father, who was a watch maker, never made it through the seminary to become a priest, because he couldn’t handle the Latin.

Again, reciting a latin prayer by rote, and being fluent enough to understand the paryer, as well as in your own tongue, are two different things.

Jim

 

[japhy]

Also, knowing how to recite a prayer in Latin and understanding the words are different things. When I was in 4th grade learning to be an altar boy, I too could recite the parts of the Mass in Latin. I had little idea about what the words meant, because all we did is memorise the words, not the meaning. This is what you’ll have today, even from the priest who say the Mass in Latin, who did not study Latin, but merely mimic the words.

You can’t possibly know that for a fact. I think you’re projecting your own attitude onto priests. While there certainly are priests who would act this way, there are plenty who will not. As they learn to pronounce the Latin, they will also learn what the Latin itself means. I think the most likely route is that they will learn the ordinaries of the Mass in Latin first, since they already know what it means in their own language; the propers will take longer since they change regularly, but the more you connect the Latin you “know” (based on knowing a good translation of it into the vernacular) with the Latin you don’t know, the more you’ll understand the Latin you don’t know! This is not about fluency in the language; this is about speaking (and eventually understanding) a limited amount of the language, in prayers.

Honestly, the easiest way to understand the Latin prayers is to start with prayers you know in the vernacular, like the Hail Mary, the Our Father, the sign of the Cross, the Glory Be.

 

[Brendan]

Heck, St. Theresa of Lisieux’s father, who was a watch maker, never made it through the seminary to become a priest, because he couldn’t handle the Latin.

Not being able to correct decline a noun, or conjegate an irregular verb has no impact on how one can understand what is being said in a prayer, especially when they learn it alongside the vernacular one.

Again, reciting a latin prayer by rote, and being fluent enough to understand the paryer, as well as in your own tongue, are different things.

Jim

That is quite correct, but that doesn’t mean that it’s beyond the intellectual level of a 7 year old either to undestand the Latin prayers any less completly than they understand the English ones.

I should now, I’ve got kids that do that, and the very fact that they learned them in Latin has increased their understanding of what the prayer is asking, regardless of language.

 

[Brendan]

Also, knowing how to recite a prayer in Latin and understanding the words are different things. When I was in 4th grade learning to be an altar boy, I too could recite the parts of the Mass in Latin. I had little idea about what the words meant, because all we did is memorise the words, not the meaning. This is what you’ll have today, even from the priest who say the Mass in Latin, who did not study Latin, but merely mimic the words.

Jim

So, let me get this straight, you consider it impossible that someone, anyone, could know what the Latin prayers actually mean without college level classwork, simply because you personally had incompetent instruction as an grade schooler?

 

[Cathryn]

I greatly appreciate the replies. I am however puzzled why this thread was moved to the Traditional Catholicism Forum since it isn’t about the Traditional Latin Mass, the Indult, SSPX, or sedevacantism. I am sort of new here and don’t know if just anything having to do with latin is tossed here. My intent was how Latin would be used in the Ordinary Form of the Mass in liturgical prayers and hymns for the faithful. The idea that Latin is for the traditionalists only is faulty. The Pope is saying that Latin is for Catholics.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

japhy

You can’t possibly know that for a fact. I think you’re projecting your own attitude onto priests.

Actually it shared by a priest who had an article in the Catholic Free Press a couple months ago. He’s been a priest for over 55 years. He explained how when he was in the seminary, not only were 4 years of Latin were required. they had to be fluent in Latin.
He said that because today’s Post-Vatian II priest are not trained in Latin for the most part, and are not fluent in the language, he feared that all that they will be doing is mimicing the words. He himself loves the Latin Mass, but said he doesn’t see it becoming the norm in the Church.

Honestly, the easiest way to understand the Latin prayers is to start with prayers you know in the vernacular, like the Hail Mary, the Our Father, the sign of the Cross, the Glory Be.

And what difference does it make to God, or the Blessed Mother, if I pray to them in Latin or in my own tongue?

Jim

 

[japhy]

Actually it shared by a priest who had an article in the Catholic Free Press a couple months ago. He’s been a priest for over 55 years. He explained how when he was in the seminary, not only were 4 years of Latin were required. they had to be fluent in Latin. He said that because today’s Post-Vatian II priest are not trained in Latin for the most part, and are not fluent in the language, he feared that all that they will be doing is mimicing the words.

I don’t expect Latin to flourish overnight. I do expect the Pope will continue to request efforts to be made to incorporate it in the liturgy, and for dioceses to make provisions for the (re)learning of Latin, at least to the point of priests being comfortable with the ordinary of the Mass.

And what difference does it make to God, or the Blessed Mother, if I pray to them in Latin or in my own tongue?

In private, it makes no difference. But the public liturgy of the Church is to be conducted as the Church says so. This is why prayers are written in a particular way and we are not to deviate from them in the public worship of the Church.

But the problem is that the Latin prayers that the Church has identified as correct doctrinally and spiritually are not always translated correctly into the vernacular. The Confiteor (“I confess, to Almighty God…”), for example, is not translated accurately into English. If what we pray in English is noticeably different from what was prayed in Latin for numerous centuries, that difference must be explained. Is the difference negligible (and if so, why does it exist in the first place)? Or is the difference problematic, ignoring (or denying) dogmas of the faith?

Again, what you pray on your own time is entirely between you and God. But what happens in the liturgy, the public worship of the Church, is designated by the Church, not by every individual member of the faithful.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

japhy

I don’t expect Latin to flourish overnight. I do expect the Pope will continue to request efforts to be made to incorporate it in the liturgy, and for dioceses to make provisions for the (re)learning of Latin, at least to the point of priests being comfortable with the ordinary of the Mass.

I don’t expect to see it flourish at all, neither did the priest in the artcile I mentioned. I wish I could get it on line, it was interesting.

In private, it makes no difference. But the public liturgy of the Church is to be conducted as the Church says so. This is why prayers are written in a particular way and we are not to deviate from them in the public worship of the Church.

The Church has not mandated Latin, but stated that it should be preserved. However, this was when the document was first issued, back in the 60’s. The main focus of the Vatican II document was closer participation of the people in the Mass. As the Church witnessed, the vernacular brought closer participation across the board and as a result, has not mandated a return to Latin.

Jim

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I don’t expect Latin to flourish overnight. I do expect the Pope will continue to request efforts to be made to incorporate it in the liturgy, and for dioceses to make provisions for the (re)learning of Latin, at least to the point of priests being comfortable with the ordinary of the Mass.

In private, it makes no difference. But the public liturgy of the Church is to be conducted as the Church says so. This is why prayers are written in a particular way and we are not to deviate from them in the public worship of the Church.

But the problem is that the Latin prayers that the Church has identified as correct doctrinally and spiritually are not always translated correctly into the vernacular. The Confiteor (“I confess, to Almighty God…”), for example, is not translated accurately into English. If what we pray in English is noticeably different from what was prayed in Latin for numerous centuries, that difference must be explained. Is the difference negligible (and if so, why does it exist in the first place)? Or is the difference problematic, ignoring (or denying) dogmas of the faith?

Again, what you pray on your own time is entirely between you and God. But what happens in the liturgy, the public worship of the Church, is designated by the Church, not by every individual member of the faithful.

We do need to learn the Latin prayers, as we’ve been asked by the Holy Father to do. I for one, however, hope the day doesn’t come when we cannot hear the ordinary in the vernacular. The Pope has said that the vernacular is helpful, while Cardinal he even suggested the Tridentine could be said in the vernacular. And Cardinal Arinze has said that the vernacular Mass isn’t going to be leaving the scene. Your point about the Confietor is well taken, but it’s being corrected and we will shortly be saying, “Through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault.”

The all-vernacular Mass exists because the Holy See permitted it. It’s a legitimate expression of the Holy Sacrifice.

 

[japhy]

Your point about the Confietor is well taken, but it’s being corrected and we will shortly be saying, “Through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault.”

37+ years later. And that’s assuming priests opt to use the Confiteor at Mass. And that’s assuming the faithful are taught to pray it correctly. And that’s assuming the faithful do pray it correctly. The complaint I’ve already heard is that now certain English words are too hard for normal people. The absence of Latin and the dependence upon a banal English translation has made many American Catholics stupid.

The all-vernacular Mass exists because the Holy See permitted it. It’s a legitimate expression of the Holy Sacrifice.

And yet the English expression has been seriously lacking in parts for the last 37 years. And the all-vernacular Mass was not the intention of the Constitution on the Liturgy.

 

[japhy]

The Church has not mandated Latin, but stated that it should be preserved. However, this was when the document was first issued, back in the 60’s. The main focus of the Vatican II document was closer participation of the people in the Mass. As the Church witnessed, the vernacular brought closer participation across the board and as a result, has not mandated a return to Latin.

If the vernacular was good enough, why do some parishes now have English-Spanish hybrid services? The Synod of Bishops has suggested – and the Pope agrees – that international communities would benefit from having part of the Mass be in Latin.

How, might I ask, is Latin being preserved? And how does the failure to preserve Latin in the Mass – against the wishes of the Second Vatican Council – make it acceptable to abandon it altogether?

Perhaps you don’t know, but Latin is the official language of the Church. It is the language of the Roman (Latin) Rite. It has a pride of place. Its meaning does not change (unlike the vernacular).

 

[JKirkLVNV]

If the vernacular was good enough, why do some parishes now have English-Spanish hybrid services? The Synod of Bishops has suggested – and the Pope agrees – that international communities would benefit from having part of the Mass be in Latin.

How, might I ask, is Latin being preserved? And how does the failure to preserve Latin in the Mass – against the wishes of the Second Vatican Council – make it acceptable to abandon it altogether?

Perhaps you don’t know, but Latin is the official language of the Church. It is the language of the Roman (Latin) Rite. It has a pride of place. Its meaning does not change (unlike the vernacular).

A) Yes, Latin IS the lanuage of the Catholic Church, but it is the servant and not the master. There is no mandate from Christ to go out into the world and teach them Latin, nor is it the Church’s ontological purpose to maintain Latin. The Holy Father has asked that we learn some Latin and we’re bound to obey him in love, but his intent does not seem to be that the vernacular Mass be abandoned.

B) Popes are not bound by Councils unless they ratify their doctrinal/dogmatic decisions and they are free to dispense or modify disciplines. Again, the all-vernacular Mass exists because the Holy See permitted it.

 

[japhy]

B) Popes are not bound by Councils unless they ratify their doctrinal/dogmatic decisions and they are free to dispense or modify disciplines. Again, the all-vernacular Mass exists because the Holy See permitted it.

I think vernacular Masses have the downside of creating cliques of Catholics in the same parish based on language. Parishes that have separate Masses in several languages would benefit from Masses in Latin, which would unite the parishioners in a truly Catholic manner, across boundaries of nationality and language, among others.

 

[tcraig]

As a native-English speaker currently living overseas, I see arguments both for Latin and the vernacular.

I would like to see the NO mass “tightened” (for lack of a better term) so that the Kyrie is in Greek, and the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus and Agnus Dei are in Latin. Always. I think this would add much to the “universality” of the Church.

Currently when I attend a mass in a language not my own, my participation is zero. I’m there, and I can anticipate what comes next, but since I don’t know the language I can’t join in. If the common prayers/chants (as stated above) were always in the same language, then I would feel more at home at the mass, no matter where I was.

That is one of my arguments for the TLM. I have attended the TLM in several countries, and have never been at a loss to participate in the liturgy. I can’t understand the homily, of course, but every other part of the mass is familiar to me and I can join right in.

However, there is something very nice about “hearing” the mass, and not having to follow the readings along in the missal (unless, of course, you are fluent in Latin).

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If the vernacular was good enough, why do some parishes now have English-Spanish hybrid services? The Synod of Bishops has suggested – and the Pope agrees – that international communities would benefit from having part of the Mass be in Latin.

How, might I ask, is Latin being preserved? And how does the failure to preserve Latin in the Mass – against the wishes of the Second Vatican Council – make it acceptable to abandon it altogether?

Perhaps you don’t know, but Latin is the official language of the Church. It is the language of the Roman (Latin) Rite. It has a pride of place. Its meaning does not change (unlike the vernacular).

Latin isn’t being preserved because unity and participation by the people in the Mass, supercedes the use of Latin.

Spanish/English is according to the vernacular that is used in that particular parish. Vernacular means language of the people, if I’m not mistaken.

Latin is the official language of the Latin rite of the Church, and is used in official documents within the hierarchy of the Church, but not in communication between the Bishops and the people of their dioceses. We don’t speak Latin in my dioceses, but English.(well that may be an exaggeration these days ). My Bishop doesn’t communicate to the people of my dioceses in Latin. Does yours?

BTW, the reason why Latin is the official language and not Greek, is because back at that time, Latin was the more common language of the people. The Church in the East wanted Greek to be the official language and I’m sure if there were others who spoke Aramaic, they probably thought the language of Jesus should be the official language.

Jim

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I think vernacular Masses have the downside of creating cliques of Catholics in the same parish based on language. Parishes that have separate Masses in several languages would benefit from Masses in Latin, which would unite the parishioners in a truly Catholic manner, across boundaries of nationality and language, among others.

I don’t see that as much of a problem (indeed, the opposite could be true, you’d have the lat(name removed by moderator)hiles and those of us who would be asking for the vernacular, that would be at least two cliques).AND I believe that most of the faithful are going to continue to want Mass in their own language (and that they will make that manifest). We’ve seen the error of too much change too fast, but here, I think the Church understands that once somethings been granted, it’s going to be tough to take it back. I don’t think the Holy See is going to force the flock over an issue such as this.

 

[japhy]

Latin isn’t being preserved because unity and participation by the people in the Mass, supercedes the use of Latin.

I don’t see why Latin has to suffer for there to be “unity and participation of the people” in the Mass. Vatican II expressly said Latin was not to be cast aside. What is stopping people from being united (in the common language of Latin) and participating in the Mass by saying some of the ordinary prayers in Latin? How is that hurting anyone?!

Spanish/English is according to the vernacular that is used in that particular parish. Vernacular means language of the people, if I’m not mistaken.

When did the “language of the people” (in some particular geographical region of the U.S.) become English and Spanish? Is the vernacular English or Spanish? Isn’t having two common languages defeating the purpose of having one common language?

 

[japhy]

I don’t see that as much of a problem (indeed, the opposite could be true, you’d have the lat(name removed by moderator)hiles and those of us who would be asking for the vernacular, that would be at least two cliques).

Then you’ve never seen a town or city that had multiple Catholic churches, each celebrating the Pauline Mass in a different language. It’s kinda weird, in my opinion.

AND I believe that most of the faithful are going to continue to want Mass in their own language (and that they will make that manifest). We’ve seen the error of too much change too fast, but here, I think the Church understands that once somethings been granted, it’s going to be tough to take it back. I don’t think the Holy See is going to force the flock over an issue such as this.

So now that the Church has made too much change too fast, Latin just has to deal with it and be trampled? 40 years of neotradition supplants 1500 or so years of tradition?

All priests have the right to say the Mass (even the Ordinary Form!) in Latin. It’s their right. And the Vatican, because of this right, strongly urges the faithful to know the ordinary parts of Mass in Latin. It doesn’t expect them to learn them on their own, but parishes and dioceses should help them, by having missals with Latin and vernacular translations.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Then you’ve never seen a town or city that had multiple Catholic churches, each celebrating the Pauline Mass in a different language. It’s kinda weird, in my opinion.

So now that the Church has made too much change too fast, Latin just has to deal with it and be trampled? 40 years of neotradition supplants 1500 or so years of tradition?

All priests have the right to say the Mass (even the Ordinary Form!) in Latin. It’s their right. And the Vatican, because of this right, strongly urges the faithful to know the ordinary parts of Mass in Latin. It doesn’t expect them to learn them on their own, but parishes and dioceses should help them, by having missals with Latin and vernacular translations.

All you say can be perfectly true, yet have little practical effect. I would still maintain that 100-200 years from now, we’ll have about the same situation we have now: Latin is the official language of the Church and the Mass will continue to be offered in that language, but there will still be a predominance of Masses offered in the vernacular.

 

[Cat]

We have had TLM in our city (150,000, plus near-by small towns) since the mid-1980s. There are several TLMs on Sundays, and twice-daily TLMs.

Although a faithful and enthusiastic band of Catholics attend, it is hardly overcrowded. I drive by it every Sunday on my way to play for another parish, and the parking lot seems quite sparse.

I do not understand why several of you believe that a TLM will attract huge throngs. It just doesn’t seem to do that in our city.

Are we weird or something?