Will faithful be taught liturgical prayers in Latin and sing Greg. Chant?

[Cat]

Is it really a COMMAND?

Really?

If so, almost every Church I’ve visited is in blatent violation of the command.

Even our Bishop is in violation of the Command. I’ve attended several of his Masses in our Cathedral, and he didn’t use Latin.

I just don’t believe it. Our Bishop is wonderful. He has a reputation for being one of the most conservative bishops in the U.S., along with Bishop Burke of St. Louis. I simply can’t believe that he is allowing so many of his parishes to disregard a COMMAND of the Pope.

His PhD is in Canon Law, so he is surely capable of correctly interpreting the Pope’s edicts. And he has said nothing about a Command to learn Latin responses.

Bishop Thomas Doran of Diocese of Rockford–look him up and tell me that he’s disobeying the Pope. Prove it.

 

[Cat]

Who said anything about memorizing? Can’t you read it from a Missal[ette]? Memorization is nice, but I don’t think it’s necessary in this case. There’s nothing wrong with reading the responses from a book.

And you’re saying that reading gibberish (to me, anyway) from a book will edify me and please the Lord more than if I simply recite the responses and prayers in my own childhood tongue and ponder them deeply, as I try to do now?

I’m sorry, but I don’t buy this. Latin is a foreign language, and it means nothing to me. I respect the tradition, just like I respect a Christmas tree. But a tradition (small “t”) isn’t necessary for Mass, just as a Christmas tree isn’t necessary for Christmas. I understand the need to preserve Latin. I kind of understand the symbolism of the unity of the Church, but we are unified, made One Body, through the Holy Eucharist, Christ in us, not through reciting prayers in a common language that most of us don’t understand.

If it does it for you, that’s beautiful.

Is “Latin” part of the “Sacred Tradition” (capital “T”) of the Church?

 

[japhy]

Although a faithful and enthusiastic band of Catholics attend, it is hardly overcrowded. I drive by it every Sunday on my way to play for another parish, and the parking lot seems quite sparse.

I do not understand why several of you believe that a TLM will attract huge throngs. It just doesn’t seem to do that in our city.

Perhaps because you’re a bit unsure of the unknown. The Extraordinary Form (EF) is rather unlike your common Mass in the Ordinary Form (OF), and not just because the EF is in Latin and the common OF is in the vernacular. There’s no chatter. There’s silence. There’s calculated gestures. There is, to be blunt, more reverence at a Mass in the EF than at most Masses in the OF.

The EF isn’t ad-libbed. The priests won’t make up stuff as they go along, or deviate from the prescribed prayers.

 

[japhy]

Is it really a COMMAND?

Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites. - Sacrosanctum Concilium (Vatican II’s Constitution on the Liturgy), 36.1

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. - Sacrosanctum Concilium, 54

Pastors shall carefully see to it that the Christian faithful, especially members of lay religious institutes, also know how to recite or sing together in Latin, mainly with simple melodies, the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass proper to them. - Inter Oecumenici (which prepared for the Missal of 1965), 59

Nevertheless, there are also those people who, having been educated on the basis of the old liturgy in Latin, experience the lack of this “one language,” which in all the world was an expression of the unity of the Church and through its dignified character elicited a profound sense of the Eucharistic Mystery. It is therefore necessary to show not only understanding but also full respect towards these sentiments and desires. As far as possible these sentiments and desires are to be accommodated, as is moreover provided for in the new dispositions. The Roman Church has special obligations towards Latin, the splendid language of ancient Rome, and she must manifest them whenever the occasion presents itself. - Dominicae Cenae, 10

Rome felt pretty strongly about it in the 1960’s. Perhaps bishops (and maybe priests, but bishops are the regulators of liturgy for their diocese) felt they didn’t need to respond affirmatively to these requests. Once the door to the vernacular was opened, there was not just a foot put in the doorway, the hinges were removed.

And, in the words of a pre-Vatican II Pope: “The use of the Latin language, customary in a considerable portion of the Church, is a manifest and beautiful sign of unity, as well as an effective antidote for any corruption of doctrinal truth.” - Mediator Dei, 60

 

[JimR-OCDS]

japhy

I don’t see why Latin has to suffer for there to be “unity and participation of the people” in the Mass.

Well it did, which is why Vatican II brought about the change in the Mass.

Vatican II expressly said Latin was not to be cast aside.

It said it should be preserved. But if you read the introduction of the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy, you will see that fuller participation of the people in the Mass, was a greater goal.

What is stopping people from being united (in the common language of Latin) and participating in the Mass by saying some of the ordinary prayers in Latin? How is that hurting anyone?!

With the same argument, how is saying the prayers in the vernacular hurting anyone? People understand their own language better than a foreign language, regardless of how well they learn the foreign language.

When did the “language of the people” (in some particular geographical region of the U.S.) become English and Spanish? Is the vernacular English or Spanish? Isn’t having two common languages defeating the purpose of having one common language?

In some parishes you have a significant number of Spanish speaking people. Hence, these parishes will offer a Mass in Spanish.

Let me ask you, is it better for immigrants to the United States to learn to speak English, or remain in their foreign language? Are they better served becoming fluent in the language of the country they’re living in?

If its better to speak the language of the culture they are living in, how would it be different for people the hear the Mass in a language other than what they can understand fluently?

Its ironic that the some of the same people who would force Latin onto people, for whom it is a foreign language, at the same time want to force Spanish speaking immigrants in the United States, to speak the language of the people, which is English.

Jim

 

[Cat]

Perhaps because you’re a bit unsure of the unknown. The Extraordinary Form (EF) is rather unlike your common Mass in the Ordinary Form (OF), and not just because the EF is in Latin and the common OF is in the vernacular. There’s no chatter. There’s silence. There’s calculated gestures. There is, to be blunt, more reverence at a Mass in the EF than at most Masses in the OF.

The EF isn’t ad-libbed. The priests won’t make up stuff as they go along, or deviate from the prescribed prayers.

Japhy, I don’t understand your answer to my question.

I tried to make it clear that even though we’ve had TLM since the mid-1980s in our city (pop. 150,000), not too many people attend. It is a respectable crowd, but hardly a large number.

Yet people on this Board keep saying that the TLM will bring large numbers of people back to the Church. I don’t see that happening in our city.

Are you saying it’s because all the Catholics in our city are unsure of the unknown? I don’t think that’s a good explanation why they don’t attend TLM. Many of them are older and they know lots about the TLM because they grew up with it.

I think…sorry!–that the majority of Catholics just aren’t interested in TLM.

BTW, I disagree that there is more reverence at a TLM than most NO masses. I don’t think that any of us can say that because we can’t know what is in people’s hearts.

 

[Cat]

Rome felt pretty strongly about it in the 1960’s. Perhaps bishops (and maybe priests, but bishops are the regulators of liturgy for their diocese) felt they didn’t need to respond affirmatively to these requests. Once the door to the vernacular was opened, there was not just a foot put in the doorway, the hinges were removed.

And, in the words of a pre-Vatican II Pope: “The use of the Latin language, customary in a considerable portion of the Church, is a manifest and beautiful sign of unity, as well as an effective antidote for any corruption of doctrinal truth.” - Mediator Dei, 60

japhy, I am very ignorant, but after reading the quotes that you have posted, I still fail to see it as a “command” for all to learn Latin and for priests to teach Latin in all Masses. I think there is a lot of freedom in that passage that you quoted.

I guess I just need to hear it from my bishop, expressed in everyday language that I can understand, and interpreted. At the moment, I feel like I’m back in the Protestant church, where we all read into the Bible whatever we wish it to say! I think we are doing that with these documents that many of you refer to. IMO, the only ones qualified to interpret it are bishops and priests, not just people like me.

 

[Rabbititus]

What puzzles me is why it is considered such a burden to teach some basic prayers and responses. IMO, at least give people the ability to navigate a Latin mass, even if they end up not going to one. In the current situation, most people will never want a Latin mass because they were denied the access and education needed to participate in one. Some choice that is - attend a mass you were never taught to understand, or one you were given more than enough assistance to understand. You folks born before Vatican II are lucky, at least you got to decide if you liked Latin or vernacular better - my generation had no such choice.

When I started to discover the vast and amazing Latin heritage of the church, I was sort of bitter I must admit, because I was never exposed to any of it. While growing up, I never went to a church that did any part of the mass in Latin/Greek - in fact last year was first time I ever heard the Kyrie in Greek or a Latin hymn. It’d be like growing up an American and never being exposed to any sort of American culture that existed prior to 1970.

 

[I_Believe]

Your children are an exception. But please don’t try and tell us that they understand Latin as well as they do English.

Even in the 1950’s when I was growing up, for the most part, the one’s who learned the parts of the Mass in Latin other than the priest, were the altar boys. But even the altar boys only memorised the words, they didn’t understand Latin. The majority of Catholics, either sat there and listened, or read the words from their missal, which they didn’t understand all that much.

Few knew Latin prayers equal to that of their own language. In fact, only the parts of the Mass were taught in Latin. Other prayers were taught in English. Of course there were the exceptions where some people learned prayers in Latin.

You know, I’m almost willing to bet, that fundamentalist who desire TLM’s only, demand that immigrants to the USA, learn to speak English, so that they can understand what is going on. Why so different in the Mass, where its more important for a person to understand what is going on?

Jim

With due respect Jim, the same reason is given by all who are concerned about the TLM making a comeback. “The venacular is easier to understand”.

That is an absurd reason to tinker with one of the most treasured things of the Church. Some things are to be left as they are.

Again, no one has ever given any other reason than “the venacular is easier”.

How hard can it be to follow along with a missal in your hand ?
It is no more difficult to memorize a prayer in latin than it is to memorize the lyrics of a pop song.

 

[Cat]

With due respect Jim, the same reason is given by all who are concerned about the TLM making a comeback. “The venacular is easier to understand”.

That is an absurd reason to tinker with one of the most treasured things of the Church. Some things are to be left as they are.

Again, no one has ever given any other reason than “the venacular is easier”.

**How hard can it be to follow along with a missal in your hand ?**It is no more difficult to memorize a prayer in latin than it is to memorize the lyrics of a pop song.

(Boldface in quote above is mine)

You know, my husband is an extremely intelligent man. He had a 4.0 GPA throughout college and grad school. He double-majored in Computer Science and Math, with a minor in LINGUISTICS.

He attended the TLM in our city once. He had an awful time following the Missal. He said he was lost throughout the Mass. He said he probably won’t go back. To him, the Mass didn’t seem any more reverent than our NO Masses.

Maybe some people are just better at flipping back and forth between foreign language and heart language, just like some people are better at repairing computer programs or playing the piano.

I know that all of you who love Latin and TLM and tradition want all the rest of us to experience it the same way you do. But…sorry!–we’re not YOU!

Here’s a word picture that might help. I have a tremendous crush on the actor, Robert Patrick. I think he is the most gorgeous man to walk this earth! I watch EVERYTHING he’s in, even if he’s only in it for a few seconds, or even if the movie or show is awful. It doesn’t matter, because to me, HE’S always good in it! I have pictures of him on my frig, my locker at work, and my computer screensaver is a beautiful picture of him in a nubby gray sweater.

I just can’t comprehend why everyone else doesn’t feel the same way about him as I do!

Well, obviously, we’re all different, and most people think Robert Patrick is NOT the most gorgeous man in the world. ( )

So what I do is join several little clubs of like-minded women who get online and drool like teenagers over him. And I honestly don’t expect the rest of the world to join un in our Robert Patrick adoration society! I wish y’all would join us, because if more people loved him, he would probably be in more movies, and he would probablyl have the lead role in The Unit instead of a supporting role. (Although according to my daughter, usually character actors like him don’t play the lead; Johnny Depp and Jim Carey are exceptions.)

You see–we’re not all alike. And what comes easily and naturally for some of you is hard as rocks for others. And what brings you to tears of joy will make others yawn.

I think that we need to respect each other and LOVE each other in our preferences. At this point, BOTH forms of the Mass are approved by the Church. At this point, a great variety of music is allowed by the Church.

I don’t buy the argument that we need to speak and listen to the same language to be in unity with Christians all over the world. I know that the Mass is celebrated in hundreds of languages, and that these people are my brothers and sisters in the Lord. We don’t need to be speaking the same language to be One Body. After all, as I said earlier, it is the Eucharist that makes us one, not Latin.

Heck, when I was Protestant, I accepted that I was in unity with people all over the world, even those who didn’t belong to my denomination! I even accepted the–gasp!–Catholics as my Christian brothers and sisters! It didn’t matter. I Corinthians 12 talks about being one in Christ as we were all baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit.

The Vatican seems to be recommending that people become as educated as possible about certain ancient Latin prayers and responses–this is reasonable, since many of the great classical works (and even some pop works, e.g., Pie Jesu by Andrew Lloyd Webber) are in Latin, and educated people SHOULD try to know the basic phrases, just like American citizens should know the basics of our U.S. history and government. It’s just good practice for educated people. (I’m not very good at it, as I mentioned earlier. If I sing in a choir that is doing a Latin piece, I honestly have no idea which prayer I am singing, except the Gloria, and I have to look at the words to remember the lyrics!).

But I still don’t see that the Vatican has specifically commanded that the faithful learn Latin or that the priests use it consistently in the Masses. There’s a lot of wiggle room in those documents that you have been quoting, and a lot of the actual nuts and bolts seems to be left to the bishops. The bishops make the decision that best fits the people that they are serving. I trust their decisions, because they are the apostles of Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[SnorterLuster]

japhy

Let me ask you, is it better for immigrants to the United States to learn to speak English, or remain in their foreign language? Are they better served becoming fluent in the language of the country they’re living in?

If its better to speak the language of the culture they are living in, how would it be different for people the hear the Mass in a language other than what they can understand fluently?

Its ironic that the some of the same people who would force Latin onto people, for whom it is a foreign language, at the same time want to force Spanish speaking immigrants in the United States, to speak the language of the people, which is English.
Jim

Jim,

I don’t see a bit of irony in your argument above. Immigrants who come to the U.S. should learn English in order to make full use of the opportunities available to all citizens of the U.S. To remain in ignorance of the language around you leaves the immigrant in the position of being in the U.S., but not a part of the U.S. I recently read an article about the infrastructural capital of the U.S. What makes an American worker more productive is not that he is smarter, rather it is the infrastructure that supports society in non material ways. An example would be the rule of law or the freedom to contract. Not learning the language leaves the immigrant in a self imposed ghetto.

Likewise, when one is a “citizen” of the Roman Catholic Church, one should learn the language of the Church. The Church is much larger than the linguistic groups that make up it members. Latin is the language of the Church. If we are to be living in the Church, we should learn her language, same as a immigrant should learn the language of his new home. To fully participate in the gifts of the Church, we should learn her language to the best of our ability. In choosing to not have Masses in the language of the Church, you are admitting that the Church is no longer an universal body, but rather is a collection of linguistic churches with just a nebulous connection to the Latin Church.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

With due respect Jim, the same reason is given by all who are concerned about the TLM making a comeback. “The venacular is easier to understand”.

That is an absurd reason to tinker with one of the most treasured things of the Church. Some things are to be left as they are.

Again, no one has ever given any other reason than “the venacular is easier”.

How hard can it be to follow along with a missal in your hand ?
It is no more difficult to memorize a prayer in latin than it is to memorize the lyrics of a pop song.

Whether its easy to follow a missal or not isn’t the point.

I’ve attended Mass in Latin many times and I bring my missal along. I follow the words, and here and there I picked up on the meaning. Often, I’m looking across the page to the English translation, and this can be a distraction. However, I will never feel as much ease in following the Mass, than when its in English, my own language and even then, I still use the Missalette.

There is no way you will convince me that hearing the Mass in a language other than the language I speak, is easier, nor is it more reverent. Latin is just a language, its not what they speak in heaven, as far as I know. God hears our prayers when they come from the heart, regardless of the language that is used.

Jim

 

[I_Believe]

Whether its easy to follow a missal or not isn’t the point.

I’ve attended Mass in Latin many times and I bring my missal along. I follow the words, and here and there I picked up on the meaning. Often, I’m looking across the page to the English translation, and this can be a distraction. However, I will never feel as much ease in following the Mass, than when its in English, my own language and even then, I still use the Missalette.

Fine, enjoy the NO. Your call. The Pope has allowed both. He has deemed the NO as the ordinary form.

There is no way you will convince me that hearing the Mass in a language other than the language I speak, is easier, …Jim

Show me one post on this fora where myself or anyone else said that.

Latin is just a language, its not what they speak in heaven, as far as I know. God hears our prayers when they come from the heart, regardless of the language that is used.

Jim

And that opinion is reason to alter the Mass of the Ages ?

 

[I_Believe]

(Boldface in quote above is mine)

You know, my husband is an extremely intelligent man. He had a 4.0 GPA throughout college and grad school. He double-majored in Computer Science and Math, with a minor in LINGUISTICS.

He attended the TLM in our city once. He had an awful time following the Missal. He said he was lost throughout the Mass. He said he probably won’t go back. To him, the Mass didn’t seem any more reverent than our NO Masses.

Maybe some people are just better at flipping back and forth between foreign language and heart language, just like some people are better at repairing computer programs or playing the piano.

I know that all of you who love Latin and TLM and tradition want all the rest of us to experience it the same way you do. But…sorry!–we’re not YOU!

Here’s a word picture that might help. I have a tremendous crush on the actor, Robert Patrick. I think he is the most gorgeous man to walk this earth! I watch EVERYTHING he’s in, even if he’s only in it for a few seconds, or even if the movie or show is awful. It doesn’t matter, because to me, HE’S always good in it! I have pictures of him on my frig, my locker at work, and my computer screensaver is a beautiful picture of him in a nubby gray sweater.

I just can’t comprehend why everyone else doesn’t feel the same way about him as I do!

Well, obviously, we’re all different, and most people think Robert Patrick is NOT the most gorgeous man in the world. ( )

So what I do is join several little clubs of like-minded women who get online and drool like teenagers over him. And I honestly don’t expect the rest of the world to join un in our Robert Patrick adoration society! I wish y’all would join us, because if more people loved him, he would probably be in more movies, and he would probablyl have the lead role in The Unit instead of a supporting role. (Although according to my daughter, usually character actors like him don’t play the lead; Johnny Depp and Jim Carey are exceptions.)

You see–we’re not all alike. And what comes easily and naturally for some of you is hard as rocks for others. And what brings you to tears of joy will make others yawn.

I think that we need to respect each other and LOVE each other in our preferences. At this point, BOTH forms of the Mass are approved by the Church. At this point, a great variety of music is allowed by the Church.

I don’t buy the argument that we need to speak and listen to the same language to be in unity with Christians all over the world. I know that the Mass is celebrated in hundreds of languages, and that these people are my brothers and sisters in the Lord. We don’t need to be speaking the same language to be One Body. After all, as I said earlier, it is the Eucharist that makes us one, not Latin.

Heck, when I was Protestant, I accepted that I was in unity with people all over the world, even those who didn’t belong to my denomination! I even accepted the–gasp!–Catholics as my Christian brothers and sisters! It didn’t matter. I Corinthians 12 talks about being one in Christ as we were all baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit.

The Vatican seems to be recommending that people become as educated as possible about certain ancient Latin prayers and responses–this is reasonable, since many of the great classical works (and even some pop works, e.g., Pie Jesu by Andrew Lloyd Webber) are in Latin, and educated people SHOULD try to know the basic phrases, just like American citizens should know the basics of our U.S. history and government. It’s just good practice for educated people. (I’m not very good at it, as I mentioned earlier. If I sing in a choir that is doing a Latin piece, I honestly have no idea which prayer I am singing, except the Gloria, and I have to look at the words to remember the lyrics!).

But I still don’t see that the Vatican has specifically commanded that the faithful learn Latin or that the priests use it consistently in the Masses. There’s a lot of wiggle room in those documents that you have been quoting, and a lot of the actual nuts and bolts seems to be left to the bishops. The bishops make the decision that best fits the people that they are serving. I trust their decisions, because they are the apostles of Jesus Christ Himself.

Hi Cat, I’m running a bit late for work, but I will reply tonight after I get back home. (about 2 am)

 

[lak611]

That has yet to be seen.

Who said anything about memorizing? Can’t you read it from a Missal[ette]? Memorization is nice, but I don’t think it’s necessary in this case. There’s nothing wrong with reading the responses from a book.

How do you read or sing responses if you don’t know how to pronounce the words? I just stood there during Holy Thursday Mass and listened to the older people because I had no clue how to sing Pange Lingua Gloriosi. There are no pronunciation guides in the hymnals. I guess I could have tried Spanish pronunciations, since it is a Romance language and I know how to pronounce Spanish words.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I find that I am much MORE attentive at the TLM because of the fact that I have to concentrate on what is going on. For me, after years of NO masses, the responses just rolled off my tongue without even passing through my mind. I didn’t have to pay attention because it was all done by rote.

I started attending the TLM four years ago and I can honestly say that during the Mass, my mind hardly ever wanders off the way it did with the NO. Of course, that’s just me, but I do feel that I’m participating much more actively now than I did before. I don’t pray my Rosary at home or my daily prayers in Latin, it’s really more of a liturgical language for me.

I don’t see why Catholics are so resistant to praying in another language. My Jewish friends don’t complain about prayers in Hebrew, they feel it makes the service more sacred because the language is used ONLY for prayer.

 

[BobP123]

Again, no one has ever given any other reason than “the vernacular is easier”.

It also relaxes the liturgical disciplines and creates more debate about which translation is better. Hardly conducive to prayer in my opinion. Personally I have heard some “vernacular” readings in the NO with heavy foreign accents which I really had trouble following. I have enough of that at work. Just give me a missal and I can prepare for Mass at home, thank you.

You know, I’m almost willing to bet, that fundamentalist who desire TLM’s only, demand that immigrants to the USA, learn to speak English, so that they can understand what is going on.

This is interesting. I was reading somewhere that because of the weakening dollar, there is a tendency not to rely on English so much anymore to do business or even to immigrate. Perhaps there is some truth in this, perhaps not.

Maybe some people are just better at flipping back and forth between foreign language and heart language, just like some people are better at repairing computer programs or playing the piano.

I can do all those things, but Latin is just another hobby.

 

[hosemonkey]

There are the quibbles about latin, there are the quibbles about altar servers, there are the quibbles about women covering their heads, there are the quibbles about the priest facing East, there are the quibbles about female lectors and extraordinary ministers. The TLM represents change, and the saying is, is that the only one who likes change is a wet baby. If you attend a TLM, get a Latin/English missal. After a few masses, following along in the missal, it will all make sense. As other posters have said, with familiarity comes understanding, and with understanding will come love for this beautiful and holy liturgy. Don’t misunderstand, it will take a little work, but it’s worth it. If it it wasn’t for Vatican II, you would not know any different. We had to endure the changes with Vatican II, now we will again have the beauty, majesty and reverence of the Mass of the Ages. Deo Gratias!

 

[Rabbititus]

How do you read or sing responses if you don’t know how to pronounce the words? I just stood there during Holy Thursday Mass and listened to the older people because I had no clue how to sing Pange Lingua Gloriosi. There are no pronunciation guides in the hymnals. I guess I could have tried Spanish pronunciations, since it is a Romance language and I know how to pronounce Spanish words.

I consider this not to be the fault of using Latin, though - it’s more the fault of people not teaching things like this after the council and willfully keeping it from future generations, really.

 

[lak611]

I consider this not to be the fault of using Latin, though - it’s more the fault of people not teaching things like this after the council and willfully keeping it from future generations, really.

It’s not a problem for me if I go to a TLM, because the servers or choir give the responses. I just follow along in my Missal but do not have to say or sing anything.

Latin NO would be a problem. I could not speak or sing the responses.