Will non-Catholic Christians who reject Catholic teaching obtain salvation?

[paramedicgirl]

Sir Knight:

But they ARE consciously rejecting the Catholic Church because they do not believe that the Catholic church is the church that Christ founded.

On this point, the CC teaches all are obliged to belong to the CC in order to be saved. Those who* through their own grave fault * refuse to accept the fact that the CC is the true Church, or knowing it, refuse to join it, cannot be saved.

Christ did not leave the legacy of the Church for a few, but for all mankind. He died for all of us, not just for some.
Sir Knight:

My question is, does that matter? Because Paul didn’t think that he was persecuting Jesus but even though he did THINK he was, Acts 2 clearly shows us that he WAS persecuting Jesus DESPITE what he taught because Jesus and His church are one. So, someone who rejects the Catholic faith ALSO rejects Jesus even if they don’t realize it.

He who hears you hears me and he who rejects you rejects me (Luke 10:16)

My understanding is that those who remain outside the Church, through their own fault, and who deliberately disobey this commandment of Jesus will not be saved. Those who remain outside the Church because they are not aware it is the true Church can be saved by making use of the graces God gives them.

A Protestant Christian who spend his Christian life firmly believing he is faithful to God may well be granted the grace to make a perfect act of contrition for the sins of his life, and will die in a state of grace, and be saved.

 

[Consecrated]

Sir Knight:

But they ARE consciously rejecting the Catholic Church because they do not believe that the Catholic church is the church that Christ founded.

My question is, does that matter? Because Paul didn’t think that he was persecuting Jesus but even though he did THINK he was, Acts 2 clearly shows us that he WAS persecuting Jesus DESPITE what he taught because Jesus and His church are one. So, someone who rejects the Catholic faith ALSO rejects Jesus even if they don’t realize it.

The CCC has some statements on the “seeking of Truth” (proper formation of conscience) that ALL people are called to:

#1783 …The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

#1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn humself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and make erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

#1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of commiting sin." In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

#1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

So to answer your question of how to convince non-Catholics to become Catholic, I think one of the best ways is to gently and persistently encourage them to learn the TRUTH of what the Church teaches. Also, to lead by example! Those who already profess the Catholic faith can freely admit that while they place their faith in Jesus through the One, True Church, they are still on a quest of understanding, and will be 'til they die!

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Sir Knight:

So if somebody remains STUBORN and refuses to accept the Catholic Church as being ‘the Church’, then they are fine?

Seems like an easy way out – follow your own interpertation of Scripture since scripture can be mis-interperted in many ways to justify divorce & re-marriage, homosexuality, etc.

You are trying to judge something that we can’t judge. God won’t be deceived in the end.

 

[bones_IV]

Br. Rich SFO:

Something Archbishop Sheen said comes to mind. Something like that not a hundred people reject the Catholic Church for what she really is. But many more reject the Catholic Church for what they think she is. It’s going to be up to God to determine the limits of invincible ignorance.

I find it hard to believe that we have a great number of invincibly ignorant people running around. The opportunity to repent is always there. It even says in Matthew 7:13-14 that those who enter eternal life are few.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

No Church is going to save anyone. Each one of us will come before the Lord for judgement and rest asure you will be alone. Salvation comes from the Lord not belonging to a particular church. God Bless

 

[Flopfoot]

SPOKENWORD:

No Church is going to save anyone. Each one of us will come before the Lord for judgement and rest asure you will be alone. Salvation comes from the Lord not belonging to a particular church. God Bless

Salvation coming from God alone and obtaining salvation through the Church are not mutually exclusive. Your comment is not really relevant here.

From CCC 169

**169 **Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

From CCC 816

The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.”

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Sir Knight:

This has been an area of confusion for me. Past Popes have been quoted as saying that Salvation is only through that Catholic church. Not sure if those statements carried with them the official infallibility of the Pope or if they were just expressing a personal opinion. Recent Popes have stated that salvation is possible for those outside of the Catholic church. Again, I don’t know if these statements carry with them the official infallibility of the Pope or if they are just expressing a personal opinion.

I’m curious if there is an “official” poistion on this matter; and if so, what that position is taking into account that in Acts 2, Jesus clearly points out that He and His church are one. If you persecute His church, you are persecuting Christ. If you reject His church, you are rejecting Christ.

What happens with bible-only Christians who reject the teachings of the Catholic church claiming that those teachings are false and stating that they follow Jesus and don’t need to follow any “man made” church.

Have they, in effect, rejected Jesus by rejecting His church or is salvation still possible for them even though they are outside of the Catholic faith?

If non-Catholics can’t be saved, then C. S. Lewis is in trouble. ​

It can be argued that he is in more of a pickle than the Bible-only people, because he was well-informed about Catholic doctrine; they often are not. There is an essay from his last years in which he explains why he was not a Catholic.

For me, he is as truly a Doctor of the Church as Augustine or Thomas. ##

 

[Milliardo]

## If non-Catholics can’t be saved, then C. S. Lewis is in trouble.

It can be argued that he is in more of a pickle than the Bible-only people, because he was well-informed about Catholic doctrine; they often are not. There is an essay from his last years in which he explains why he was not a Catholic.

Without offending any fan of C.S. Lewis, I would say that he is really in trouble for rejecting the Church. I think the Catechism is very clear on this one. As much admired as C.S. Lewis is, his rejection of the Church is tantamount to rejecting Christ.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Milliardo:

Without offending any fan of C.S. Lewis, I would say that he is really in trouble for rejecting the Church. I think the Catechism is very clear on this one. As much admired as C.S. Lewis is, his rejection of the Church is tantamount to rejecting Christ.

Or not. From the Catechism:

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

And further, from the Catechism:

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

Also, there’s been some discussion about “invincible ignorance.” If you read the Catechism, that section doesn’t deal with our seperated brethren (the above does). “Invincible ignorance” speaks to those who’ve never heard of Jesus and His Church. The section covering them comes after the above section.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The doctrine of salvation only in the Church is infallible. So too, the doctrine of salvation outside the Church is infallible.

The way it works is that the Church is both the visible church on earth and the invisible church in heaven as one. Those that are not in full communion with the visible church on earth, can be in spiritual communion with the invisible church in heaven, if and only if through no fault of their own they do not know about the Church and her doctrines. In such cases they can be saved if they are in a state of grace. However, it is also important that the person tries to learn more about Christianity and eventually learn about the Catholic Church. They can’t just say: “In that case if I stay dumb, I’ll be considered saved by all religions.” That would be held against them because they refused to learn when they could’ve and should’ve.

This, for example, isn’t what the Catechism says or what is meant by “invincible ignorance” (the underlined part). The poster is, however, correct in his assertion about the need to die in a state of grace.

 

[Milliardo]

JKirkLVNV:

Or not. From the Catechism:

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

And further, from the Catechism:

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

Also, there’s been some discussion about “invincible ignorance.” If you read the Catechism, that section doesn’t deal with our seperated brethren (the above does). “Invincible ignorance” speaks to those who’ve never heard of Jesus and His Church. The section covering them comes after the above section.

It is clear in both cases of the Catechism that those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ or His Church, can then use these means for salvation. But if one, after hearing about Christ and His Church, still refuses to enter it or to remain in it, then his salvation is lost. As can be seen, there is really no contradiction in the Catechism about it. These only note that there are means available to the non-Catholic who do not consciously reject Christ or His Church.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Milliardo:

It is clear in both cases of the Catechism that those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ or His Church, can then use these means for salvation. But if one, after hearing about Christ and His Church, still refuses to enter it or to remain in it, then his salvation is lost. As can be seen, there is really no contradiction in the Catechism about it. These only note that there are means available to the non-Catholic who do not consciously reject Christ or His Church.

Your assertion DOES contradict the CCC.

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

It doesn’t say “unless they are ignorant of the Catholic Church.” It basically says that they are saved by those things that “derive” from what has been entrusted in its’ fullness to the Catholic Church. NOW, if a protestant became CONVINCED that the Catholic Church was Christ’s true Church and failed to come into Her, yes, his salvation would be, at the very best, uncertain. AND everyone in Heaven IS Catholic, regardless of what they were on Earth.

 

[Consecrated]

JKirkLVNV:

Your assertion DOES contradict the CCC.

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

It doesn’t say “unless they are ignorant of the Catholic Church.” It basically says that they are saved by those things that “derive” from what has been entrusted in its’ fullness to the Catholic Church. NOW, if a protestant became CONVINCED that the Catholic Church was Christ’s true Church and failed to come into Her, yes, his salvation would be, at the very best, uncertain. AND everyone in Heaven IS Catholic, regardless of what they were on Earth.

Obviously, we must leave individual cases, like CS Lewis, to God’s infinite justice and mercy. Of course, we cannot judge the state of any soul at the moment of death.

JKirkLVNV, you say salvation would be in doubt if “a protestant became CONVINCED that the Catholic Church was Christ’s true Church and failed to come into Her.” What about persons who refuse to learn about the Truth of the Catholic faith, or think they know all there is to know? There are not many people (at least that I know of) that have not heard the Church’s claim to be the one, original. Shouldn’t everyone, in good conscience, be seeking to know if that claim is true or false?

I really can’t tell how Milliardo contradicts you or the CCC. You both seem to be saying the same thing. Am I misunderstanding anyone? (real question )

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Consecrated:

Obviously, we must leave individual cases, like CS Lewis, to God’s infinite justice and mercy. Of course, we cannot judge the state of any soul at the moment of death.

JKirkLVNV, you say salvation would be in doubt if “a protestant became CONVINCED that the Catholic Church was Christ’s true Church and failed to come into Her.” What about persons who refuse to learn about the Truth of the Catholic faith, or think they know all there is to know? There are not many people (at least that I know of) that have not heard the Church’s claim to be the one, original. Shouldn’t everyone, in good conscience, be seeking to know if that claim is true or false?

I really can’t tell how Milliardo contradicts you or the CCC. You both seem to be saying the same thing. Am I misunderstanding anyone? (real question )

I’m asserting that “invincible ignorance” in the Church’s Catechism does not apply to our brothers and sisters in Christ who are not formally Catholic. “Invincible ignorance” is in a seperate section and in a seperate context. I’m not saying people SHOULDN’T become Catholic, nor am I asserting that it doesn’t matter what church or ecclesial community you belong to (see Domine Jesus, which is against indifferentism). I’m asserting that what I believe the Catechism has to say about our seperated brethren’s relationship with the Church. They are in “imperfect” communion, according to the Catechism, but the same Catechism affirms that that communion or union does exist. It asserts that their church’s and ecclesial communities are, for them, means of salvation, though what they have that saves derives from the Church (thus the Church is still absolutely necessary for salvation). It doesn’t assert that they have to become formal Catholics to be saved, even if they’ve heard of the Church (who hasn’t?). They still have to die in a state of grace, obviously. I don’t fear for CS Lewis, nor Dietrich Bonhoffer, nor my dead grandmothers nor my ancient Baptist deacon grandfather. He knows ABOUT the Catholic Church and he knows he doesn’t believe It’s teachings (we had a conversation about confession last night). I do not believe he’s headed for hell, though I freely confess I’m not God and I have no way of seeing into any man’s soul. He is, however, the most upright and godly man I ever hope to know, who loves Jesus and is most concerned with faithfully following Him, within his understanding of what it is to follow Christ. On the evidence of “by their fruits ye shall know them,” however, I don’t fear for or them. I don’t think the Catechism teaches that they are excluded, indeed, I think it teaches that they are in the Church that “subsists” in the Catholic Church, known only to God.

 

[oat_soda]

He is, however, the most upright and godly man I ever hope to know, who loves Jesus and is most concerned with faithfully following Him, within his understanding of what it is to follow Christ.

i wonder if God makes up for their lack of the sacraments in other ways only known to himself. in the end everyone will be accountable for their actions. God is infinitely merciful and just. so it’s not up to us to decide who goes to hell but God.

but, anyone separated from full unity in the catholic church is in a gravely deprived condition and all things being equal, a catholic has a better shot of going to heaven then a protestant or jew. ignorance doesn’t do anyone any favors. .

 

[JKirkLVNV]

oat soda:

i wonder if God makes up for their lack of the sacraments in other ways only known to himself. in the end everyone will be accountable for their actions. God is infinitely merciful and just. so it’s not up to us to decide who goes to hell but God.

but, anyone separated from full unity in the catholic church is in a gravely deprived condition and all things being equal, a catholic has a better shot of going to heaven then a protestant or jew. ignorance doesn’t do anyone any favors. .

The fullness of truth and the safest way on the narrow path is indeed the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. It isn’t one of many ways, it is THE way. I would never say differently. Those who are saved are saved by the Catholic Church and Her mediating presence in the world, whether they know it or not.

 

[Richard_Hurtz]

I’m confused by this conversation in that it would seem to me that very few Protestants have not heard of the claims of the Catholic Church. In order to be saved they must be joined to the Catholic Church either visibly or invisibly. Yet the vast majority of Protestants will not be joined VISIBLY to the Catholic Church AND Vatican II refers to them as ‘separated brethren’ who have received valid baptism.

It would seem to me that (some / many / most) Protestants must be already joined INVISIBLY to the Catholc Church. And the guessing games surrounding who’s saved / not saved are ill advised. We are supposed to preach the Good News to all creatures, not the ones that WE think need it the most.

Blessings,
Richard

 

[SPOKENWORD]

JKirkLVNV:

The fullness of truth and the safest way on the narrow path is indeed the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. It isn’t one of many ways, it is THE way. I would never say differently. Those who are saved are saved by the Catholic Church and Her mediating presence in the world, whether they know it or not.

My dear Friend,There is only one way. Jesus said I AM the WAY. He didnt say the RCC is the WAY. God Bless

 

[JKirkLVNV]

SPOKENWORD:

My dear Friend,There is only one way. Jesus said I AM the WAY. He didnt say the RCC is the WAY. God Bless

No, He didn’t. But the fullness of His Authority to BE the Church on the Earth, to pronounce absolution, to bind on earth and in heaven, to consecrate the Bread and the Wine into His Body and His Blood, was given to the Catholic Church. The earliest fathers of the Church, the disciples of Christ’s disciples, would be astounded at your assertion. But you’ve hung around long enough to know I was probably going to say that. The Catholic Church alone possesses the His authority on the earth. “He who hears you hears me.” What I said doesn’t detract from Christ’s unique salvific role as the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the World, but was an extension of it. As that extension, her presence in the world is entirely necessary for the salvation of the world.

 

[paramedicgirl]

SPOKENWORD:

My dear Friend,There is only one way. Jesus said I AM the WAY. He didnt say the RCC is the WAY. God Bless

The Catholic Church is the way to Jesus, who is the way to the Father. Since the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of the truths of the faith, it is the surest way to salvation (through Jesus, of course)