Will non-Catholic Christians who reject Catholic teaching obtain salvation?

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barsapp:
are you going to explain us the teachings of the Catholic Church?
i can explain you that Luther was a heretic expelled from the Church(the Only Holy Catholic Church founded and wanted by Christ). You know that Luther belonged to the Catholic Church, but he became a destroyer, a division maker, a heretic. Nothing to be proud of.
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I am sorry I seem to have up set you. Would it help if I told you I have never accepted Martin Luther’s teachings and I’m not a protestant. I was in the Catholic Church for over forty years and have instructed Catholic religion classes.
Giver
 
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Giver:
I was in the Catholic Church for over forty years and have instructed Catholic religion classes.
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it is sad to hear about someone who abandoned the Mystical Body of Christ, the Ark of Salvation.
 
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barsapp:
so He founded the Catholic Church.
so, i repeat my question: are you going to explain us the teachings of the Catholic Church?
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Do the Catholic Churches teachings need to be explained to you? I have been just trying to show the discrepancy between what the Catholic Church teaches and what Jesus taught.
 
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Giver:
Do the Catholic Churches teachings need to be explained to you? I have been just trying to show the discrepancy between what the Catholic Church teaches and what Jesus taught.

I was in the Catholic Church for over forty years and have instructed Catholic religion classes.
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Whoa …hold it!

Lemme get this straight. You were some sort of catechist during your time in the church and you don’t know better than this? Wow! No offense, but no wonder so many of our fellow Catholics are messed up now.

So, since you have supposedly found your salvation outside of the church lemme ask you how you reconcile all the out of context teachings that you have been fed by those folks? The reason that I ask is because I’m a cradle Catholic with 12 years of Catholic schooling behind me who fell away for almost 35 years and after all that time as Southern Baptist and then Assembly of God and then non-denominational, I came home to the faith about 5 years ago because I heard a false allegation made against our most holy faith and it got me digging deeply into what the church teaches and I discovered that I’d either been misled or outright lied to about a great many things and that when I looked into the teachings of the Catholic Church for myself (Catholic Home Study Service helped a great deal!), with my Bible in hand, I couldn’t deny the truth and I came home.

This Romans 4:5 “proof text” of Sola Fide is all out of the context of the rest of the New Testament. If all it took was faith to “get saved”, then why does Matthew 25:31-46 read as follows?

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

…and why then does Jesus make these statements in the Gospel of John? (and others is other places…)

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father’s commandments, and do abide in his love.

No my friend, the context of the Word of God does not teach that we are saved simply by faith alone, but by what we do with that faith and how we follow Christ’s own commandments of love.

You let somebody tell you what they wanted you to think the church teaches and what they want you to think the Word of God says, but that is just plain not the case.

As my friend over at the Mary Foundation say: “Get the facts. Decide for yourself.”
Pax vobiscum,
 
Peace Seeker:
Why do you follow man rather than God???
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Well, I certainly wouldn’t follow any man as ignorant as you. That would be madness indeed.
 
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Giver:
I was in the Catholic Church for over forty years and have instructed Catholic religion classes.
Giver
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You were a Catholic, a teacher of religion, who left the Church. I guess that makes you incompetent, or worse.
 
I wouldn’t want you or anyone to follow me. Everyone should listen and follow Jesus. There is much in the written Word that none of the Churches are following, because they are not listening to Jesus. Why don’t you just read the following Scriptures.

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(Luke 12:33) “Sell your possessions and give alms. Get yourselves purses that do not wear out, treasure that will not fail you, in Heaven where no thief can reach it and no moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

(Luke 14:33) “So in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all

Usury: (Ezekiel 18:13) “_____ charges usury on loans and takes interest, then this son shall certainly not live; having committed all these appalling crimes he will have to die, and his blood be on his own head.” And Jesus raises Usury to a higher level (Luke 6:35) “Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return. You will have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.” God doesn’t use excessive when He talks about interest.

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.” Now don’t you think a savings account in a bank is both storing and charging interest?
Giver
 
Well, Not having the time to go through all the posts to read the opinions on the matter, I will comment briefly on how I feel concerning this.

Not being a catholic myself, I obviously believe it is necessary to obtain salvation without the catholic church. I am a believer in the principle covered in the bible, that faith without works is dead.

Clarifying what I mean: I believe that all men will be judged according to their works, and their punishment or salvation rewarded accordingly. I will not go into the age-old ongoing argument concerning “which Church is the Lord’s” as this can go off the topic. Suffice to say that all men have equal chance and they need to accept Christ, being the main principle, and will be given the opportunity to do so. Reject this, and you fail to recieve the reward reserved for the righteous.
 
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Giver:
I am saying the Catholic Church is wrong because it does not teach that any war is wrong. That Christians are to love their enemies not kill them. Unity is for all those Christians who hear the Word of God and live it, whether they’re Catholic or not.
Giver
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Hmmm…you must also have issues with Our Lord Himself huh?

Matthew 10:34: "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Luke 22:36: He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it, and likewise a bag. And let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one.

Where does that anti-war position come from in the Bible?

And what about Armageddon?
 
BlackKnight,

I can’t understand how anyone could read (Luke 22:36) and think Jesus was telling them to get a sword to defend themselves. Even the Catholic approved Jerusalem Bible will tell you “The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force, the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission in a hostile world.” He told Peter to put away his sword that those who live by the sword would die by the sword.

You should know that Jesus is God and what He told us is law. He came here to complete the law. (Matthew 5:17) When people don’t have enough faith to live the Word of God they will go to any lengths to make the Word say what is acceptable to them.

(Matthew 5:38-39) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well;”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”
Giver
 
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Giver:
I am saying the Catholic Church is wrong because it does not teach that any war is wrong. That Christians are to love their enemies not kill them. Unity is for all those Christians who hear the Word of God and live it, whether they’re Catholic or not.
Giver
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For a former catechist, you are certainly ignorant about Catholic teaching. The Catechism teaches that “All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war” (CCC 2308) However, it must be balanced by the need to protect the innocent and other aspects necessary for the “tranquillity of order”, as St. Augustine puts it—peace is not merely the absence of war.
 
Faith -as in, “I accept the CC as the Church Christ founded” -
is a gift of grace.

The confusion I see, in all of this, is that if one is given
all the reasons why this is claimed to be the case…
yet does not *accept *same - then it is, occassionally held,
that one is being stubborn, or whatever.

Either the CC teaches that faith [in it’s “fulness”] is
a gift…or she does not.

Which is it, please?

reen12

And, BTW, there will be no “religion” in heaven.

The Object of faith will be had, in full:

“But then I will see, face to face.”
“I will know, even as I am known…” St. Paul

Ergo, no need for ‘religion.’ **
 
In terms of: there will be no religion, in heaven:

Religion is comprised of : beliefs, rituals, worship,
and statements of what constitutes moral behavior.

When the Being one believes in, is seen “face to face”
‘belief’ is no longer an operative category.

The rituals employed to worship God are no longer
operative, either. If the Mass is seen as both
offering praise and thanksgiving, and as a vehicle
through which to receive grace…why would this
be operative, in the presence of the Giver of
Grace…we will be infused and permeated with grace,
by the state of being in His presence.
[ontological, not a function of intentionality.]
We will “live and move and have our being” in Him.]

Whether to act morally or no, will no longer be
operative, as a choice…not in the presence of
the Giver of the moral law.

reen12

Analogy: when you are in the presence of
Reality, you no longer hold seminars
discussing: "What* is* reality?
 
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Giver:
I have been just trying to show the discrepancy between what the Catholic Church teaches and what Jesus taught.
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Please, choose which kind of seed you are:

Mark 4, 4-8: “And as he sowed, some seed fell on the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Other seed fell on rocky ground where it had little soil. It sprang up at once because the soil was not deep. And when the sun rose, it was scorched and it withered for lack of roots. Some seed fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked it and it produced no grain. And some seed fell on rich soil and produced fruit. It came up and grew and yielded thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold”.

Don’t risk your salvation outside the Church; understand that the Holy Catholic Church and Christ are the same. If you reject the Catholic Church, you reject Christ, as Saul was doing.

Acts 9, 4-5: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.”

Are you more than the faithful saints who served Christ in the Holy Church? Do not become another Luther. Come back.
 
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Giver:
BlackKnight,

I can’t understand how anyone could read (Luke 22:36) and think Jesus was telling them to get a sword to defend themselves. Even the Catholic approved Jerusalem Bible will tell you “The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force, the necessities of life. All this is symbolic
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of a mission in a hostile world.” He told Peter to put away his sword that those who live by the sword would die by the sword.

You should know that Jesus is God and what He told us is law. He came here to complete the law. (Matthew 5:17) When people don’t have enough faith to live the Word of God they will go to any lengths to make the Word say what is acceptable to them.

(Matthew 5:38-39) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well;”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”
GiverAll this is your proof texts to support your indictment of the Catholic Church for something that is not expressed in the Word of God. To say the verses are “symbolic” is nowhere supported by the context of either those passages or the rest of the Word of God. I sort of doubt that either you or whatever church you belong to have any where near the just war concepts that the Catholic Church has.

On a personal level…does this mean that if a gang of hoodlums breaks into your home one night and wants to have their way with your wife and daughters (or even your sons), that you will willingly stand there and allow it?

In other words you do not believe in a right to self defense or in defending the defenseless? :irish1:
 
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Sherlock:
For a former catechist, you are certainly ignorant about Catholic teaching. The Catechism teaches that “All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war” (CCC 2308) However, it must be balanced by the need to protect the innocent and other aspects necessary for the “tranquillity of order”, as St. Augustine puts it—peace is not merely the absence of war.
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Yes I’m aware of the Catholic teaching and because the Churches teachings contradicts the Word of God, it is wrong. I’ll say again: When people don’t have enough faith to live the Word of God they will go to any lengths to make the Word say what is acceptable to them.

The world needs an army, but a Christian is not of the world, and can’t be part of the world.
Giver
 
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Giver:
I can’t understand how anyone could read (Luke 22:36) and think Jesus was telling them to get a sword to defend themselves. Even the Catholic approved Jerusalem Bible will tell you “The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force, the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission in a hostile world.”
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You are wrong. The passage is NOT symbolic because if it were, then when the Apostles showed to Jesus the swords that they had, the Great Teacher, who taught in parables but privately explained everything to his apostles (Mark 4:34), would have explained that He was not speaking of physical swords. But Jesus did not do that. Instead, upon seeing the swords, He told them that it would be sufficient – clearly showing that the passage refered to real swords … Jesus was commanding His followers to purchase WEAPONS!

And what do you do with weapons?
 
The commandment reads:
“Thou shalt not do murder.”

In a just war, to take the life of a combatant on the
other side, is to kill the person…not “murder” him/her.

To intentionally take the life of another, without just cause,
is murder.

Reams of ink have been spilled, because this
distinction is not made. 🤓

The second distinction, that is not made, is the
difference between what is being urged, in terms
of* personal* behavior, as opposed to community,
or national life.

I may turn the cheek, personally, when struck -
but it may be a matter of virtue, to step in when
someone else is having a number done on them.
[If a little old lady is being pushed around by a
group of thugs, is this the time for a Christian
to stand around, mulling, like Pilate:
["What *is ‘turning the other cheek.’? ]
I…don’t…think…so. 🤓
Call the police! Do something!

“Those who live by the sword…” is far more
likely to refer to criminals, who use violence,
for personal gain. Not to a legitimately recognized
government, carrying out the *duty *to defend the
populace.

[Franklin Roosevelt asked Congress to declare
war on Japan, after Japan had bombed Pearl Harbor.
This was a *national, not a personal, response.]

[And “eye for an eye” [*lex talionis] was considered
a step forward, for it’s time, as in:
You may only take an eye, for an eye…]

reen12
 
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Giver:
Yes I’m aware of the Catholic teaching and because the Churches teachings contradicts the Word of God, it is wrong. I’ll say again: When people don’t have enough faith to live the Word of God they will go to any lengths to make the Word say what is acceptable to them.

The world needs an army, but a Christian is not of the world, and can’t be part of the world.
Giver
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Nonsense. When the centurion converted, he wasn’t required to quit his job.
 
May I ask again:

Does the Catholic Church teach that faith is a gift of grace?

Not knowledge of the claims of the Church, but the
*acceptance *of these claims:

Is this a matter of a gift of grace, or not?

What is the teaching of the Church, on the subject of -
whether or not - the acceptance of the truths of
Catholicism “fulness of faith”] constitutes a gift,
from God.

It can’t be both ways.

We cannot maintain that it is a gift of grace,
while simultaneously maintaining, that to
know what the Church teaches, must result,
inevitably, in acceptance of those teachings.
Where is grace, in all this?

For, if faith is a gift of grace, then there can be
no “culpability”, for one who has not received
that gift.

What is the teaching of the Church?
[CCC reference, please.]

Thanks,

reen12
 
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