W
whatevergirl
Guest
I don’t know if I’d look at becoming ‘vulnerable’ to a bullying and abusive husband, as growing in holiness. I hope things get better for you…I’m sorry you’re going through this in your marriage.
- Status
D
Don_Hepler
Guest
I do not believe that there is nothing that God cannot do for his children who believe in him and live for him. God changed the language of men at the tower of babble, he surely can soften the hearts of any human, male or female. Try fasting for your cause and in humility as the Father in the name of Jesus Christ to soften the heart of this spouse of yours. For he has promised for those who ask he will answer. A change heart is a good thing. Humility is even better. God bless
R
RedSoxWife
Guest
This is why it is so incredibly important to marry a good Catholic man! You must trust that he would never do anything that wasn’t in the best interests of you and your family. There will be plenty of times that you disagree, but hopefully you’re in a relationship where your fiance listens to you and values your opinions and takes what you say into consideration. Obedience is something that I really struggle with. It’s definitely not easy. I was raised to be strong and independent and while strength is very necessary the independence doesn’t make submitting to my husband easy. I try to commit myself to it on a day to day basis.Hi, new to the forums and I hope to learn a lot from the people who’ve been here awhile. I am engaged to be married this next year. I want to have a biblical marriage, but I am having some trouble understanding the dynamics of Ephesians 5 and Titus 2. The more I think about it the more uncomfortable it makes me, I think because while I do understand what I’m reading, I am unsure how this plays out in everyday life.
How can I be obedient and submissive to my future husband without turning into a doormat? I am not a feminist, but I’m not a shrinking violet either on the other hand. What does submission look like in the practical, everyday life of a modern marriage?
If any of you ladies (and men) who’ve been married awhile have any other helpful advice for an almost newlywed, that would be great too.
I’ve also found that when we pray as a family things just seem to run more smoothly.
Congratulations on your engagement!
A
ac_claire
Guest
LOL no, not at all! I should have phrased that differently. I loved your post! I meant, some more seasoned wives, as in other wives, other perspectives, in addition to the wise Gabriella.(bolds mine) I guess you don’t consider* over 25 years* as wives, “seasoned” enough?You mean I haven’t done enough time or I haven’t suffered enough yet?
G
Gabriella_San_S
Guest
You’re sweet. I was just playin’ witchaLOL no, not at all! I should have phrased that differently. I loved your post! I meant, some more seasoned wives, as in other wives, other perspectives, in addition to the wise Gabriella.
A
adopted_heir
Guest
rwillenborg,
On a practical note, if he made the right choices or demands all the time, it wouldn’t be a command–we’d obey anyway. I bet if he did get that kinkajou, and you didn’t say a word against it, and you learned to feed and take care of it (because if he won’t take care of the kids by himself, realistically, he won’t take care of a pet either) cheerfully, it wouldn’t take long before he’d have a sign in the post office reading “Kinkajou, $10 OBO” because he’ll learn, eventually, that that’s not a very good idea.
In the other things, it seems like stupid demands but the best, easiest, and most consistent way to express your love, respect, and obedience to him is to submit in the small things. When you do that, a little every day makes it easier to submit when you think he’s going to make a big mistake. But that’s his right, to be a dork. One of the tough parts of being a wife is helping your man “save face” by being gracious in the face of his dumbness (I don’t say that to be a man-basher, but because he WILL work up some super dumb ideas, and you WILL want to shake him till his teeth rattle) and making sure he looks like a hero in front of his children, his friends, his co-workers, and his in-laws. A man has a strong sense of pride, and a wife is going to be the main shield to it.
Plus, when you do submit in goofy little things, he’ll learn that you trust him and his judgment, and that will give him the confidence to not have to make proclamations about crossing streets or playing with your friends As far as that goes, you might just have to wait till the kids are old enough to take care of themselves in the evening. If he doesn’t want to be left alone with them, they are still your job. As mom, you’re giving your life for the privilege of taking care of them, and breaks are few and far between. I’m still getting used to it, too, but the rarity of an evening out really does make you appreciate it all the more. In the meantime, find ways around the home to get that few minutes of relaxation, or have a friend come for lunch or during naptime and have a beer on the porch, whatever helps you cope. Believe me, there are days when I want to tie the toddler to the tree in the yard, and pass the baby over as soon as Daddy gets out of the car–“Here, take this!”–but you can’t do that too often or the neighbors start calling CPS.
Find ways to make your husband’s burden easier. A couple of people pointed out finances–I’ve found that relieves DH of a HUGE burden. He works all day, usually six days a week, and I stay at home with babies and sign the checks. Bill-paying is usually pretty routine, and there’s not normally anything I have to approach him about for his authority, so it’s pretty autonomous for me and a big weight off his mind. Mowing the lawn, on the other hand, and washing cars, is purely his territory because those are chores he wants to do and loves doing. I made the mistake a while back of paying a guy to mow our lawn (he was asking door-to-door and I was surprised the city hadn’t already come down on us for it, but DH hadn’t had a chance to get the mower fixed for spring, blah blah blah) and when he got home and our glorious African savanna was demolished, he about cried. So he mows the lawn, nobody else, and he is happy.
The good news is, you’re constantly moving forward, so we might discourage some of those responses you had, but you can determine what you do from here and the past won’t matter.
Lifeisamazing,
I’d say still honor him. When he wants to spout out verses, compliment him on his knowledge and wisdom. After all, it doesn’t say that husbands submit to wives, and if he’s being a jerk and not doing his job, that doesn’t release you from yours. If he sees you building him up in front of other people, he’ll want to live up to your hype. Unfortunately, a lot of women are going to have to bite the bullet and trust him anyway, despite himself. Your confidence in him will train him to be a good man, or your lack of confidence in him will bring him down further. I’m sorry I can’t remember the chapter and verse, but there is a scripture that talks of if you’re married to a man who lives without the word of God, you can also win him without the word of God, by your conversation–your behavior can make a godly man of him, without the help of the Bible or religion. Best of luck to you!
On a practical note, if he made the right choices or demands all the time, it wouldn’t be a command–we’d obey anyway. I bet if he did get that kinkajou, and you didn’t say a word against it, and you learned to feed and take care of it (because if he won’t take care of the kids by himself, realistically, he won’t take care of a pet either) cheerfully, it wouldn’t take long before he’d have a sign in the post office reading “Kinkajou, $10 OBO” because he’ll learn, eventually, that that’s not a very good idea.
In the other things, it seems like stupid demands but the best, easiest, and most consistent way to express your love, respect, and obedience to him is to submit in the small things. When you do that, a little every day makes it easier to submit when you think he’s going to make a big mistake. But that’s his right, to be a dork. One of the tough parts of being a wife is helping your man “save face” by being gracious in the face of his dumbness (I don’t say that to be a man-basher, but because he WILL work up some super dumb ideas, and you WILL want to shake him till his teeth rattle) and making sure he looks like a hero in front of his children, his friends, his co-workers, and his in-laws. A man has a strong sense of pride, and a wife is going to be the main shield to it.
Plus, when you do submit in goofy little things, he’ll learn that you trust him and his judgment, and that will give him the confidence to not have to make proclamations about crossing streets or playing with your friends
As far as that goes, you might just have to wait till the kids are old enough to take care of themselves in the evening. If he doesn’t want to be left alone with them, they are still your job. As mom, you’re giving your life for the privilege of taking care of them, and breaks are few and far between. I’m still getting used to it, too, but the rarity of an evening out really does make you appreciate it all the more. In the meantime, find ways around the home to get that few minutes of relaxation, or have a friend come for lunch or during naptime and have a beer on the porch, whatever helps you cope. Believe me, there are days when I want to tie the toddler to the tree in the yard, and pass the baby over as soon as Daddy gets out of the car–“Here, take this!”–but you can’t do that too often or the neighbors start calling CPS.Find ways to make your husband’s burden easier. A couple of people pointed out finances–I’ve found that relieves DH of a HUGE burden. He works all day, usually six days a week, and I stay at home with babies and sign the checks. Bill-paying is usually pretty routine, and there’s not normally anything I have to approach him about for his authority, so it’s pretty autonomous for me and a big weight off his mind. Mowing the lawn, on the other hand, and washing cars, is purely his territory because those are chores he wants to do and loves doing. I made the mistake a while back of paying a guy to mow our lawn (he was asking door-to-door and I was surprised the city hadn’t already come down on us for it, but DH hadn’t had a chance to get the mower fixed for spring, blah blah blah) and when he got home and our glorious African savanna was demolished, he about cried. So he mows the lawn, nobody else, and he is happy.
The good news is, you’re constantly moving forward, so we might discourage some of those responses you had, but you can determine what you do from here and the past won’t matter.
Lifeisamazing,
I’d say still honor him. When he wants to spout out verses, compliment him on his knowledge and wisdom. After all, it doesn’t say that husbands submit to wives, and if he’s being a jerk and not doing his job, that doesn’t release you from yours. If he sees you building him up in front of other people, he’ll want to live up to your hype. Unfortunately, a lot of women are going to have to bite the bullet and trust him anyway, despite himself. Your confidence in him will train him to be a good man, or your lack of confidence in him will bring him down further. I’m sorry I can’t remember the chapter and verse, but there is a scripture that talks of if you’re married to a man who lives without the word of God, you can also win him without the word of God, by your conversation–your behavior can make a godly man of him, without the help of the Bible or religion. Best of luck to you!
W
whatevergirl
Guest
So, women should stay in abusive marriages, you’re saying?rwillenborg,
On a practical note, if he made the right choices or demands all the time, it wouldn’t be a command–we’d obey anyway. I bet if he did get that kinkajou, and you didn’t say a word against it, and you learned to feed and take care of it (because if he won’t take care of the kids by himself, realistically, he won’t take care of a pet either) cheerfully, it wouldn’t take long before he’d have a sign in the post office reading “Kinkajou, $10 OBO” because he’ll learn, eventually, that that’s not a very good idea.
In the other things, it seems like stupid demands but the best, easiest, and most consistent way to express your love, respect, and obedience to him is to submit in the small things. When you do that, a little every day makes it easier to submit when you think he’s going to make a big mistake. But that’s his right, to be a dork. One of the tough parts of being a wife is helping your man “save face” by being gracious in the face of his dumbness (I don’t say that to be a man-basher, but because he WILL work up some super dumb ideas, and you WILL want to shake him till his teeth rattle) and making sure he looks like a hero in front of his children, his friends, his co-workers, and his in-laws. A man has a strong sense of pride, and a wife is going to be the main shield to it.
Plus, when you do submit in goofy little things, he’ll learn that you trust him and his judgment, and that will give him the confidence to not have to make proclamations about crossing streets or playing with your friends
Find ways to make your husband’s burden easier. A couple of people pointed out finances–I’ve found that relieves DH of a HUGE burden. He works all day, usually six days a week, and I stay at home with babies and sign the checks. Bill-paying is usually pretty routine, and there’s not normally anything I have to approach him about for his authority, so it’s pretty autonomous for me and a big weight off his mind. Mowing the lawn, on the other hand, and washing cars, is purely his territory because those are chores he wants to do and loves doing. I made the mistake a while back of paying a guy to mow our lawn (he was asking door-to-door and I was surprised the city hadn’t already come down on us for it, but DH hadn’t had a chance to get the mower fixed for spring, blah blah blah) and when he got home and our glorious African savanna was demolished, he about cried. So he mows the lawn, nobody else, and he is happy.
The good news is, you’re constantly moving forward, so we might discourage some of those responses you had, but you can determine what you do from here and the past won’t matter.
Lifeisamazing,
I’d say still honor him. When he wants to spout out verses, compliment him on his knowledge and wisdom. After all, it doesn’t say that husbands submit to wives, and if he’s being a jerk and not doing his job, that doesn’t release you from yours. If he sees you building him up in front of other people, he’ll want to live up to your hype. Unfortunately, a lot of women are going to have to bite the bullet and trust him anyway, despite himself. Your confidence in him will train him to be a good man, or your lack of confidence in him will bring him down further. I’m sorry I can’t remember the chapter and verse, but there is a scripture that talks of if you’re married to a man who lives without the word of God, you can also win him without the word of God, by your conversation–your behavior can make a godly man of him, without the help of the Bible or religion. Best of luck to you!
Life explains above that her husband misuses the verse to bully and abuse her. And this will somehow help the man to become better? Life’s husband is verbally and emotionally abusive. Men like that need help beyond what a wife can give…and we definitely should pray, but I would never suggest to a woman in an abusive relationship to stay and submit. I’m sorry, your post really saddens me. And submit doesn’t mean obey at all costs. Christ didn’t teach that we are to allow our spouses to abuse us…
C
CatholicHlpmate
Guest
My first marriage ended in divorce because of the abuse that went on in it. I stayed in it as long as I did, even though I knew it was rotten from the beginning, because of this passage. I felt that I was to blame for the horrible things to happen, something that my ex was only too willing to reinforce. I realized eventually that his pushing me to feel this way was another method of abuse and control, and that God never intended His Word to be used in such a way. I pray now for those women still in such situations, that either things will work out for the better in the marriage or that their eyes will be opened and they’ll get out safely.
I have to say that things are much better this time around, largely in part in my opinion to the fact that Kevin is a good Catholic man who was brought up much better than my atheist ex-husband was. We are raising my daughter with solid Catholic values and he’s taken her under his wing as if she were his own blood.
The point is that there’s nothing good or right about suffering abuse, and if such a man uses the Word to back up his actions, he profanes it.
I have to say that things are much better this time around, largely in part in my opinion to the fact that Kevin is a good Catholic man who was brought up much better than my atheist ex-husband was. We are raising my daughter with solid Catholic values and he’s taken her under his wing as if she were his own blood.
The point is that there’s nothing good or right about suffering abuse, and if such a man uses the Word to back up his actions, he profanes it.
W
whatevergirl
Guest
Thank you, thank you. I’m soooo glad you are in a better place now with someone who loves you!! :hug1: Perhaps, I’m sensitive because I have known women who have been abused, and I was in an abusive relationship before my husband, during my college years. To tell a woman to stay and submit to an abusive man, is horrible advice. God’s word was never meant to be twisted for mankind’s ‘gain,’ and misuse.
A
adopted_heir
Guest
Okay, let me differentiate between an abuser and a bully. I read “bully” as the main description, I guess, and everybody gets abused at some point, to some degree. If it’s to the point where he’s not just a jerk but an actual abuser, there’s only so much she can do to help him, but I think she can help him. If a wife does not stay, but breaks the marriage vow and leaves her husband, he loses all chance of God using her to change him. So, is he actually abusive, or is he a bully? My mom was a bully and emotionally abusive, and Dad never left her, because she wasn’t an abuser (habitually, constantly). Statistically speaking, a woman who is abused, physically or emotionally or verbally, won’t leave. It’s sad, but maybe if she’s not willing to give up her marriage entirely, she’s willing to try to make it better and may end up with a changed man. Miracles happen when we follow God’s direction.
Is it right for him to use Scripture to bully her or bring her down? No. Is it right that it should be a destructive force in a marriage instead of constructive? No. But maybe, if he’s going to use the Bible to tear her down, she can use it to build both of them up. Maybe if he actually starts reading the Word or listening to himself when he misuses it, he’ll start to see it clearly and let it change him.
There was a link to another thread, up above. That thread talks about when a wife should obey and when she shouldn’t.
Is it right for him to use Scripture to bully her or bring her down? No. Is it right that it should be a destructive force in a marriage instead of constructive? No. But maybe, if he’s going to use the Bible to tear her down, she can use it to build both of them up. Maybe if he actually starts reading the Word or listening to himself when he misuses it, he’ll start to see it clearly and let it change him.
There was a link to another thread, up above. That thread talks about when a wife should obey and when she shouldn’t.
A
ac_claire
Guest
Hey wgSo, women should stay in abusive marriages, you’re saying?
To be fair, I don’t believe adopted heir was advocating staying in an abusive relationship. I think she was advising that the wife should try to try to do everything they can do to heal the situation first. Because there are different levels of “abuse”…There is pure severe physical/sexual/emotional abuse and there are abusive behaviors…The latter is more what Life Is Amazing was talking about, I believe, and is the kind of thing that in some cases can be healed. But before the healing can happen the wife has to not abandon her marriage at the first sign of problems. I think that was more along the lines of what adopted heir was advising. (Correct me if I’m wrong…)
W
whatevergirl
Guest
**Hi Claire 
I agree–no, a wife shouldn’t leave as soon as the going gets tough…Lifeisamazing posted another thread, called "would this upset you?’’ I think she has done all she can, she sounds like she is married to a very abusive, volatile man. Lifeisamazing–I don’t mean to bring that thread up here, but it explains why I replied the way I did, in reply to adopted heir.
I cherish, love, and honor my husband…but I wouldn’t stand by him if he became abusive. No way. Not for my own safety and that of my kids. Jesus was clear…it was a two-pronged statement He made…‘women are to submit to their husbands, likewise husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church.’ It isn’t ‘wives, submit to your husbands.’ End of sentence. There have been times in my own marriage, that I have fallen short of being a good wife, and my husband likewise. But, there is a difference between falling short of doing our best, and being abusive. If you read through the other thread, it will explain better, my reply. **
I agree–no, a wife shouldn’t leave as soon as the going gets tough…Lifeisamazing posted another thread, called "would this upset you?’’ I think she has done all she can, she sounds like she is married to a very abusive, volatile man. Lifeisamazing–I don’t mean to bring that thread up here, but it explains why I replied the way I did, in reply to adopted heir.
I cherish, love, and honor my husband…but I wouldn’t stand by him if he became abusive. No way. Not for my own safety and that of my kids. Jesus was clear…it was a two-pronged statement He made…‘women are to submit to their husbands, likewise husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church.’ It isn’t ‘wives, submit to your husbands.’ End of sentence. There have been times in my own marriage, that I have fallen short of being a good wife, and my husband likewise. But, there is a difference between falling short of doing our best, and being abusive. If you read through the other thread, it will explain better, my reply. **
A
ac_claire
Guest
Ok, will do.
L
Liberanosamalo
Guest
I might interject the problem with “building up” people who don’t deserve it is that it’s like giving everyone an A who didn’t study for the test.
Not everyone deserves to be clapped at and thrown rose petals.
And a wife who does that to a husband who is abusive could be setting herself up for people doubting her later when she finally starts admitting the truth.
And usually narcissistic personalities thrive on this feedback of empty worthless meaningless praise. It doesn’t make them better people. In fact, to a narcissist, it just reinforces his feelings of entitlement that he is being rewarded for bad behavior. (If you haven’t lived with one, please don’t argue. Just take my word for it.)
Then when it’s time for you to finally seek help for years of abuse, no one believes this guy you were building up really was that bad.
It doesn’t make all of them turn to God. Really. And to me, it’s very condescending and quite disrespectful to have that “We’ll pat him on the head, he can’t help not being better” attitude.
Too many men use this bible passage to demean and control devout women. Who then blame themselves that by their prayer and example they weren’t able to melt his heart toward God.
No woman needs to add that sense of failure to a huge list of failings her abuser already piles on her. “IF you had been better, I’d be better.” NO NO NO!
And no one should stay with an abuser hoping to save his soul. It could cost her her life. And her children’s souls. And her sanity. And even her soul.
He’s supposedly the head of the domestic church. He should be looking out for his family, not the other way around.
I love how men are supposed to be the leaders of the family, except when they don’t want to be the leaders of the family. Then the submissive wife is supposed to do his job.
Not everyone deserves to be clapped at and thrown rose petals.
And a wife who does that to a husband who is abusive could be setting herself up for people doubting her later when she finally starts admitting the truth.
And usually narcissistic personalities thrive on this feedback of empty worthless meaningless praise. It doesn’t make them better people. In fact, to a narcissist, it just reinforces his feelings of entitlement that he is being rewarded for bad behavior. (If you haven’t lived with one, please don’t argue. Just take my word for it.)
Then when it’s time for you to finally seek help for years of abuse, no one believes this guy you were building up really was that bad.
It doesn’t make all of them turn to God. Really. And to me, it’s very condescending and quite disrespectful to have that “We’ll pat him on the head, he can’t help not being better” attitude.
Too many men use this bible passage to demean and control devout women. Who then blame themselves that by their prayer and example they weren’t able to melt his heart toward God.
No woman needs to add that sense of failure to a huge list of failings her abuser already piles on her. “IF you had been better, I’d be better.” NO NO NO!
And no one should stay with an abuser hoping to save his soul. It could cost her her life. And her children’s souls. And her sanity. And even her soul.
He’s supposedly the head of the domestic church. He should be looking out for his family, not the other way around.
I love how men are supposed to be the leaders of the family, except when they don’t want to be the leaders of the family. Then the submissive wife is supposed to do his job.
A
adopted_heir
Guest
Hey wg
To be fair, I don’t believe adopted heir was advocating staying in an abusive relationship. I think she was advising that the wife should try to try to do everything they can do to heal the situation first. Because there are different levels of “abuse”…There is pure severe physical/sexual/emotional abuse and there are abusive behaviors…The latter is more what Life Is Amazing was talking about, I believe, and is the kind of thing that in some cases can be healed. But before the healing can happen the wife has to not abandon her marriage at the first sign of problems. I think that was more along the lines of what adopted heir was advising. (Correct me if I’m wrong…)
You are correct.
T
TheresaLS
Guest
I have no problem with the biblical quote…but God had a plan. The husband is the head of the household…very true and wise. But the head makes no move without the neck…I am the neck!!! Only kidding!!! Remember God does have a sense of humor…and without that the majotity of marriages would never last!
E
envchemist
Guest
I should probably start a new thread…and I’m probably repeating things others have said.
This is my FAVORITE scripture to talk about in RCIA. I love Paul…I used to despise him…but then I had the Protestant version of this and being subjugated by men. I am a convert, raised in a partial hispanic household with the men in charge. I rebelled.
After years of being Catholic I read the other half of this…Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church…and was willing to die for her.
Does this give the men permission to be Masters and treat their wives like slaves or servants NO!!! What did Christ do??? He died for his spouse. You must be Christ to your wives. It’s so humorous because I am in SUCH a traditional marriage…but it’s LIGHTYEARS from the marriage my mother endured and my father ruled over.
THANK YOU GOD FOR STEPHEN, my beloved husband!!!
This is my FAVORITE scripture to talk about in RCIA. I love Paul…I used to despise him…but then I had the Protestant version of this and being subjugated by men. I am a convert, raised in a partial hispanic household with the men in charge. I rebelled.
After years of being Catholic I read the other half of this…Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church…and was willing to die for her.
Does this give the men permission to be Masters and treat their wives like slaves or servants NO!!! What did Christ do??? He died for his spouse. You must be Christ to your wives. It’s so humorous because I am in SUCH a traditional marriage…but it’s LIGHTYEARS from the marriage my mother endured and my father ruled over.
THANK YOU GOD FOR STEPHEN, my beloved husband!!!
W
whatevergirl
Guest
agreed!
Beautifully stated! I have often wondered why that one particular Scripture is frequently distorted to mean so many things, of which was never intended by Christ. 
:shrug:
J
Jack17
Guest
I think they should be equal, both compromising. No one should have more power than the other.
A
ac_claire
Guest
Yeah…agreed!
While it is, as St. Paul says, a “great mystery” I really don’t think that it’s that complicated in practice. The people who are tripped up by Ephesians 5 are those who only read the wife’s part and equate it with subserviance and inequal dignity. Or those who see the whole passage as “teaching of those times” because they misinterpret the verses to be advocating wives tolerating being abused or mistreated or taken for granted or “worshipping” the husband, etc.
It’s really a very simple explanation of what marriage is and it’s great marriage advice. Like all Scripture it’s timeless. I told my fiance about this thread and he said, “yeah it was written for a certain time and place: this time and place.”
- Status