Wives, Submit to your own husbands as to the Lord

[envchemist]

I think they should be equal, both compromising. No one should have more power than the other.

It’s not about power. It’s about teaching us through the family how God sees and loves us. From our love for our spouse to our love for children it’s showing us how HE LOVES. Jesus had power, but remember he was meek and mild. He loves and we respond to that love—we long for it. In every messed up human type relationship we are looking for that love and it can only be answered by him. Love is always about compromise—but when it’s important love is protective and getting us to do the right thing.

Then too, there is my favorite line from My Big Fat Greek Wedding:

“The husband is the head of the family. But the wife is the neck and she can turn that head any way she wishes!”

 

[kbrigan]

With all respect due to St. Paul, I think he was writing at at different time and place…

I’ll agree with this somewhat – St. Paul, Christianity, and Judaism to some extent, by ushering in a vision of man’s possible higher nature, helped pull humanity out of pretty brutal circumstances. Most important is not that St. Paul’s injunction is “primitive*” compared to modern understanding, but that it’s so advanced compared to prior eras of history. Not only were we finally just coming out of a long tradition of polygamy, but most marriages were based on tribal economics; spouses barely knew each other. If your parents loved you, they might arrange a good match, but if they were just in it for the cash (or the cow), would knows who you might have wound up with. Wives rarely saw husbands – most of their days were spent entirely apart. The injunction toward monogamy – which created the “couple” as a social and spiritual unit – was part of the general earth-shattering innovations of the Christian ideas. I repeat, in this “different time and place”, Paul’s instructions here were quite feminist, and served to increase women’s station, social involvement and general “freedom level”. [Insert here a long discussion of the Arthurian legends, and the further marital innovations of the romantics.]

*Which, as I and others have said, it actually isn’t. The overwhelming message of this passage is that husbands and wives should love, cooperate with and respect each other, regardless of how the specifics get parsed out. (Ditto parents and kids, although that’s a different section.)

 

[kbrigan]

I’m sorry for your pain.

Um, OK… I’m sorry for your pain, too.

 

[Gabriella_San_S]

Um, OK… I’m sorry for your pain, too.

You sound sorry. But that’s okay, I forgive your sarcasm, and laud your exegesis of Pauline thought, not to mention your historical commentary. How does your unique insight impact your faith? God bless.

 

[Jack17]

It’s not about power. It’s about teaching us through the family how God sees and loves us. From our love for our spouse to our love for children it’s showing us how HE LOVES. Jesus had power, but remember he was meek and mild. He loves and we respond to that love—we long for it. In every messed up human type relationship we are looking for that love and it can only be answered by him. Love is always about compromise—but when it’s important love is protective and getting us to do the right thing.

Then too, there is my favorite line from My Big Fat Greek Wedding:

“The husband is the head of the family. But the wife is the neck and she can turn that head any way she wishes!”

I don’t want a meek and mild wife, but a wife that’s like a second head contributing her thoughts as an equal. Someone that’s independent and can function with or without me.

 

[Cat]

I don’t want a meek and mild wife, but a wife that’s like a second head contributing her thoughts as an equal. Someone that’s independent and can function with or without me.

Of course you want someone who is your equal in intelligence and talent, and who speaks up and shares her thoughts and knowledge. That’s fine.

But again, we’re not referring to “power” when we talk about submitting to our husbands.

I’m guessing you will understand many of us better when you and your wife are locked on an issue or action, and neither of you will allow the other one to make the final decision.

This is quite a miserable situation that results in a marriage where not much gets done.

SOMEONE has to have the authority to make the final decision, and the Bible states that the someone is the husband. He also has the authority to ask his wife to make the final decision, and on many issues, he probably will. But it is HIS call, not the wife’s.

It’s the way God designed men and women, and it really works quite well and makes a strong marriage.

 

[ac_claire]

Of course you want someone who is your equal in intelligence and talent, and who speaks up and shares her thoughts and knowledge. That’s fine.

But again, we’re not referring to “power” when we talk about submitting to our husbands.

I’m guessing you will understand many of us better when you and your wife are locked on an issue or action, and neither of you will allow the other one to make the final decision.

This is quite a miserable situation that results in a marriage where not much gets done.

SOMEONE has to have the authority to make the final decision, and the Bible states that the someone is the husband. He also has the authority to ask his wife to make the final decision, and on many issues, he probably will. But it is HIS call, not the wife’s.

It’s the way God designed men and women, and it really works quite well and makes a strong marriage.

Yes, indeed.

 

[ac_claire]

Of course you want someone who is your equal in intelligence and talent, and who speaks up and shares her thoughts and knowledge. That’s fine.

But again, we’re not referring to “power” when we talk about submitting to our husbands.

I’m guessing you will understand many of us better when you and your wife are locked on an issue or action, and neither of you will allow the other one to make the final decision.

This is quite a miserable situation that results in a marriage where not much gets done.

SOMEONE has to have the authority to make the final decision, and the Bible states that the someone is the husband. He also has the authority to ask his wife to make the final decision, and on many issues, he probably will. But it is HIS call, not the wife’s.

It’s the way God designed men and women, and it really works quite well and makes a strong marriage.

Yes, indeed.

 

[severus68]

I don’t want a meek and mild wife, but a wife that’s like a second head contributing her thoughts as an equal. Someone that’s independent and can function with or without me.

And that is a real man JACK17, one who is unafraiid to have an equal partner. Marriages do not fail because wives do not submit to their husbands. They fail when couples do not share the same values and go into marriages blinded by love, when there are lies, when one or both is/are unfaithful. The list can go on.

I attended a wedding at a born again Christian church where the minister asked the wife to submit in her vows. You could see she was blindsided. My 80 year old uncle was smiling - he thought it was hilarious. At the end of the service one of my cousins told one of my brothers laughingly " Could you image if our wives were submissive?’ We are all Catholics, and there are many of us, and we all do not subscribe to this.

Strong men want strong women to share their lives and I am not talking about physical strength of course.

 

[adopted_heir]

Well, as a submissive wife, I can tell you there’s not a darn thing in that that makes me weak. I dare you to find a woman who is submissive in the way God’s Word describes, who is not strong. It takes a lot of strength, determination, discipline, and self-control to submit properly to our husbands. Saying a submissive woman is not strong is like saying stay-at-home moms have it easy, spoken by someone who’s never experienced it. That submissive wife is responsible for running an efficient home, clean and orderly and happy, she’s responsible for making it a safe haven for her man to return to, where he is made stronger by her hard work, where he has a place to get ready for the troubles outside the home; she’s responsible for feeding him and their children good, healthy meals. She’s responsible for household repairs. If she doesn’t know how to fix something, she learns, and she does it, so her man isn’t burdened by it on top of everything else. She knows how to take care of sick or hurt children, and how to raise them not to be little snots. It is her job to make sure they grow up knowing she (and they) think Dad is a hero, and when they get old enough to know he’s just a man, they’ll love her even more for loving him, and they’ll love him in spite of his shortcomings. A submissive wife upholds her man’s honor, protects his pride, and doesn’t challenge his authority because that would be the opposite of both. She’s not submissive because she’s weak and helpless; she’s submissive because that’s her job and it makes everyone’s job run more smoothly. She’s well-read and wise, but knows when to keep her mouth shut and wait for her husband to ask for her advice. When she does this, he trusts it more because she’s not a nag or a shrew. Every decision is not a battle, so the home is full of peace instead of strife. Marriage can be summed up, both for men who don’t want to lead, and women who don’t want to submit: Anything with two heads is a monster; anything with no head is dead.

 

[ac_claire]

Good post, adopted heir.

Strong men want strong women to share their lives and I am not talking about physical strength of course.

Once again this proves that Christians who have a problem with Ephesians 5 don’t have a correct understanding of what submission is. It has nothing to do with being weak or strong. If you had the correct understanding, you wouldn’t be able to have a problem with it because it just makes so much sense! My suggestion is go back and read through the entire thread, including the link buffalo posted on page 1.

God bless!

 

[Gabriella_San_S]

well, as a submissive wife, i can tell you there’s not a darn thing in that that makes me weak. I dare you to find a woman who is submissive in the way god’s word describes, who is not strong. It takes a lot of strength, determination, discipline, and self-control to submit properly to our husbands. Saying a submissive woman is not strong is like saying stay-at-home moms have it easy, spoken by someone who’s never experienced it. That submissive wife is responsible for running an efficient home, clean and orderly and happy, she’s responsible for making it a safe haven for her man to return to, where he is made stronger by her hard work, where he has a place to get ready for the troubles outside the home; she’s responsible for feeding him and their children good, healthy meals. She’s responsible for household repairs. If she doesn’t know how to fix something, she learns, and she does it, so her man isn’t burdened by it on top of everything else. She knows how to take care of sick or hurt children, and how to raise them not to be little snots. It is her job to make sure they grow up knowing she (and they) think dad is a hero, and when they get old enough to know he’s just a man, they’ll love her even more for loving him, and they’ll love him in spite of his shortcomings. A submissive wife upholds her man’s honor, protects his pride, and doesn’t challenge his authority because that would be the opposite of both. She’s not submissive because she’s weak and helpless; she’s submissive because that’s her job and it makes everyone’s job run more smoothly. She’s well-read and wise, but knows when to keep her mouth shut and wait for her husband to ask for her advice. When she does this, he trusts it more because she’s not a nag or a shrew. Every decision is not a battle, so the home is full of peace instead of strife. Marriage can be summed up, both for men who don’t want to lead, and women who don’t want to submit: Anything with two heads is a monster; anything with no head is dead.

brilliant!!! what wisdom!!!

 

[Don_Hepler]

brilliant!!! what wisdom!!!

awesome ever thought of writing a book…Adopted heir what does that refer to???

 

[adopted_heir]

thanks; a lot of what I’ve learned is from Created to be His Help Meet, by Michael and Debi Pearl. I’ve seen a lot of mixed opinions of them, but I support that book at least. I can only say what I’ve learned from my marriage, and the bad examples I’ve seen around me.

You know, the tag was from two verses in Scripture, and I’m such a dweeb I’ve forgotten which ones they are! Galatians comes to mind, and the verse about “heirs together in the grace of life” but I can’t remember specifically.

 

[Don_Hepler]

thanks; a lot of what I’ve learned is from Created to be His Help Meet, by Michael and Debi Pearl. I’ve seen a lot of mixed opinions of them, but I support that book at least. I can only say what I’ve learned from my marriage, and the bad examples I’ve seen around me.

You know, the tag was from two verses in Scripture, and I’m such a dweeb I’ve forgotten which ones they are! Galatians comes to mind, and the verse about “heirs together in the grace of life” but I can’t remember specifically.

It is always good to make changes, change is always good if it brings peace.

 

[JEANNIEMAC]

Paul was speaking of the norms of his time IE: head covering in church, women not allowed to speak, etc. Didn’t Jesus say that Mary had chosen the better part in listning to Him.?
But, I digress:
Paul said that God is the head of the male and the husband is head of his wife. If both are made in the image of God, male and female, shouldn’t the woman be just as worthy as the male to have God as her head, and not simply an ordinary human male? The dominion of the husband, in Genesis, was as a result of sin. Doesn’t this mean that it was not meant to be in the natural order before sin? If Jesus has paid the debt, why should the consequence still be on the head of women?
And frankly, I just don’t think any human male is worthy enough to be the head of his wife. Many men think of themselves as the human race, while women are the Ladies Auxiliary. WE are both made in God’s image and equal to each other, just as the three Persons of the Trinity are equal to each other.
Recently, I read in a Knights of Columbus magazine that many men just can’t wait for the Sunday reading from Paul.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Hi, new to the forums and I hope to learn a lot from the people who’ve been here awhile. I am engaged to be married this next year. I want to have a biblical marriage, but I am having some trouble understanding the dynamics of Ephesians 5 and Titus 2. The more I think about it the more uncomfortable it makes me, I think because while I do understand what I’m reading, I am unsure how this plays out in everyday life.

How can I be obedient and submissive to my future husband without turning into a doormat? I am not a feminist, but I’m not a shrinking violet either on the other hand. What does submission look like in the practical, everyday life of a modern marriage?

If any of you ladies (and men) who’ve been married awhile have any other helpful advice for an almost newlywed, that would be great too.

With love, and an act of the will, all is possible. Thank God you are not a feminist; feminism defiles love and sacrifice.

Far, far too many modern people have been brought up to make little godlings of the self. They have no idea about the true meaning of love, and they see all forms of loving sacrifice as ‘doormat-ism.’ It is not.

Yes, there will be difficulties and struggles, but do not let the atheists and feminists turn you from this path of real love.

Deacon Harold on EWTN is great to listen to regarding family life. Ganbatte!

 

[JEANNIEMAC]

Years ago, a Scottish visitor to my family’s house saw my brother shining his shoes. He said, “This isn’t right. He shouldn’t be shining his own shoes when there is a woman in the house.” When I told him I thought women were just as good as men, he asked, “Are you a feminist?”
Yes, I do believe women are equal to men, so I guess that makes me a feminist.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

The idea of sexual equality and romantic love originated with Christianity.

Feminism rejects that. Feminism is about eugenics and destruction of the family. Just take a glance at the philosophy of Margaret Sanger.

 

[adopted_heir]

Paul was speaking of the norms of his time IE: head covering in church, women not allowed to speak, etc. Didn’t Jesus say that Mary had chosen the better part in listning to Him.?
But, I digress:
Paul said that God is the head of the male and the husband is head of his wife. If both are made in the image of God, male and female, shouldn’t the woman be just as worthy as the male to have God as her head, and not simply an ordinary human male? The dominion of the husband, in Genesis, was as a result of sin. Doesn’t this mean that it was not meant to be in the natural order before sin? If Jesus has paid the debt, why should the consequence still be on the head of women?
And frankly, I just don’t think any human male is worthy enough to be the head of his wife. Many men think of themselves as the human race, while women are the Ladies Auxiliary. WE are both made in God’s image and equal to each other, just as the three Persons of the Trinity are equal to each other.
Recently, I read in a Knights of Columbus magazine that many men just can’t wait for the Sunday reading from Paul.

Quite the contrary, this was the natural order of things before sin entered the world. God created her to be a help meet, a helper sufficient to meet all his needs, and when sin entered the world and disordered all things, God was saying that she would STILL be subservient to him, but now it’s going to be a lot harder because they’re both sinful. It’s a lot easier to obey a perfect, sinless husband, but the cost of that sin was that neither of them were perfect anymore, but she’d still be put in the chain of command where God intended her to be in the first place, only now it’d be a struggle for both of them.

Yes, Jesus paid the price, but the consequences of Original, and personal, sin still weighs on each individual’s conscience.

The woman DOES have God as her head, when she has her husband for a head. By serving and obeying him she is serving and obeying God. This isn’t a superior/inferior issue or more human/less human. This is the chain of command and authority that God set up, from the beginning, made difficult by our sin.

And frankly, God doesn’t care whether the man is “worthy” of being the head of the wife. He doesn’t say a stinking thing about only respecting authority when your husband is right, just like he doesn’t say “Husbands, love your wives, but only when she’s not a nag, shrew, witch, or soul-leeching denigrator.” For about the twenty-seventh time, our husband’s disobedience doesn’t negate our obligation to obey.