Wives, Submit to your own husbands as to the Lord

[JaneGrey]

Come now, you really don’t think the Love and Respect thing implies that men don’t need love and women don’t need respect? Let’s be sensible, it’s no good taking things to unreasonable extremes.

I think saying that men’s oxygen is respect and women’s is love is generalising and taking things to extremes. I think a few people actually believe in this ‘‘unreasonable extreme’’ and that is what I was taking issue with.

 

[severus68]

Im sorry that you have been criticised for having a differing view. The purpose of these threads are to have objective, non-personal debates, however this becomes impossible when certain people get emotional at the realisation that others out there do not see things the way they do.

Thank you. Yes, they do not seem to appreciate that it is a forum for discussion and debate. I am still Catholic and it is sad to see that the most venom directed at me comes from Catholics. They can have different views but I don’t understand the arrogance and self righteousness and hostility. Oh well.

 

[whatevergirl]

*Hi Jane and severus–I’m sorry severus that you have experienced some attacks in this thread…

I think the best way to sum this passage up is this…Jesus gave a direction…about HOW wives are to love their husbands and men are to express love for their wives. If men fail to be competent leaders, fail to lead their wives and children in a Christ-like way…I think it’s safe to assume that the marriage won’t work too well. Likewise, if a wife constantly feels like she needs to be the leader, because her husband really and truly isn’t capable (and we’re not talking because he was in a car accident and/or mentally impaired, rather talking that he is just not a good role model) of leading…or that her husband is leading the family down an insanely bad path–we can also assume that the marriage will be unsuccessful.

I think that that is all the passage means…that if you don’t follow this, your marriage will be off kilter…off center. I think we could discuss every possible scenario in the world, but if husbands love their wives the way Christ loved the Church…it’s apparent that would mean that the men don’t turn into tyrants, or the end all be all authority in the home. I can’t imagine having a marriage, where my husband made all the decisions without ever checking with my opinion. That’s not love.

Since we are all unique…yet Catholic…we can safely say that how we each carry out this passage in our marriages, might differ. If the end result is a Christ-like marriage, who cares what anyone else thinks? That’s my thought. *

 

[whatevergirl]

*Here are the 9 fruits of the Holy Spirit listed one right after the other in a bullet point format:

**Love
Joy
Peace
Longsuffering
Kindness
Goodness
Faithfulness
Gentleness
Self-control **

Now here is the specific verse from Scripture where these 9 fruits are being given to us by the Lord:

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” (Galatians 5:22)

Suffice to say, if men and women love one another LIKE THIS…the marriage will grow in holiness. I think sometime these threads become “competitions” between some women…who can follow “x” passage the best…or whose marriage most resembles this. Quite frankly…if you have a holy and loving marriage, everyone around you will be able to see it… *

 

[Tigertame4]

What if a husband DOESN’T make good decisions though?
Should the wife support his poor decisions, even to the detriment of herself and her children? A husband who makes poor decisions does not necessarily lack the love that is required for a marriage, but he may lack prudence, or wisdom, or any other of a host of traits necessary to make a good, qualified decision on a matter. That does not make him a bad husband or father. It simply makes him a human being.
Still, the bible calls on the wife to submit to her husband - it provides no exceptions for when he’s being unreasonable, is ill-informed, or simply obtuse.
What then?
Why presume that the husband is required to consult with his wife? The bible doesn’t say that he is. I know you said it would be rude for him not to, but rudeness is not prohibited, and I, as a matter of fact, though I love my children dearly, I am often rude to them - forcing them into their car seats when they don’t want to and the such. Rudeness doesn’t show a lack of love.
Wasn’t it woman’s PUNISHMENT for sin to be under the dominion of her husband?
I will multiply your pains in childbirth.
You shall give birth to your children in pain.
You will long for your husband,
but he will lord it over you.’

A woman’s submissive position to her husband is her punishment.

That is a bad translation. I have read that a better translation is to birth with great effort. Biologically we would not exist if childbirth did NOT take effort and some pain. The EFFORT is squeezing the baby out which clears its lungs of amnio fluid. The PAIN is to make one STOP and take note. Imagine walking along and boom the baby falls out. The punishment was for BOTH Adam and Eve.

I would again recommend the Abundant Life episode from EWTN with Father Mitch Pacwa that talks about the bible verse this thread was based on. Father Mitch describes the husband role in being head of the house as being like Christ Crucified. He must be willing to do ANYTHING for the care of his family (wife) to the point of death.

 

[Rach620]

Exactly! Some of these ideas about men and women seeem to come straight from some not terribly well written romance novels. Rachel posted part of John Paul II’ letter which I believe reflects the RCC’s teachings. These ideas also demean men. We are not cavemen. Our grandparents and those women before that may not have had much choice as theycould not work and it was a male dominated world. Women have brains too and we are told not to use them or you may upset your husband’s fragile feelings.Humilty and repect work both ways. Submission is only to God.

I’m not sure what you are getting at here, severus, in the parts I bolded. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I can’t understand how you believe that the Church’s teachings “demean men,” or that the Church tells women not to use their brains.

From what I have read and studied, I know that the Church does teach that there are differences between men and women–these differences are physical, psychological, and spiritual. Masculinity and femininity are great gifts from God, and men and women are created to be complementary–physically, psychologically, and spiritually. I’d agree with Jane and severus that to reduce the differences to “love” for women and “respect” for men is NOT the answer–I have a huge problem with that reduction of the word “love” to mushy tender feelings that only women appreciate! But I do think that if we reflect on the differences between men and women that we can see in our own lives and our own marriages, we will see more than a few.

Again, I would say that when it comes to submission in marriage, the primary submission is that which takes place between the spouses. Mutual submission, out of love, to one another. A commitment to the goal of getting one another to heaven. A promise to always put the interests of one’s spouse above their own. A humble imitation of Christ as a servant, who stooped to the ground to wash His friends’ dusty feet.

When we think about how we are to practically live this out as husbands or as wives, I think that is where the complementarity comes back in, and where this passage from Ephesians 5 starts to get to the heart of the matter. Marriage, we are told, is a great mystery, and it represents Christ and the Church. Husbands, we are told, are called to be like Christ; wives, like the Church. If we look at the Church throughout history, we find that She is obedient, but not unthinkingly so (remember all those heretics we had to deal with?!). She is faithful through every challenge. She brings new souls to Christ through baptism, and she brings God’s grace to the world through the sacraments. I can think of so many parallel ways in which wives can live out their vocation to be like the Church in a most beautiful sense.

Sure, one can take offense at the passage and what appears on the page, or we can cynically read the worst in what might have been written by various Catholics over the past 2000 years. It’s hard not to do that. But really Scripture is an invitation to understand and incorporate the Word of God into our lives, and sometimes that takes a little time, trust, and discipline.

 

[severus68]

*Hi Jane and severus–I’m sorry severus that you have experienced some attacks in this thread…

I think the best way to sum this passage up is this…Jesus gave a direction…about HOW wives are to love their husbands and men are to express love for their wives. If men fail to be competent leaders, fail to lead their wives and children in a Christ-like way…I think it’s safe to assume that the marriage won’t work too well. Likewise, if a wife constantly feels like she needs to be the leader, because her husband really and truly isn’t capable (and we’re not talking because he was in a car accident and/or mentally impaired, rather talking that he is just not a good role model) of leading…or that her husband is leading the family down an insanely bad path–we can also assume that the marriage will be unsuccessful.

I think that that is all the passage means…that if you don’t follow this, your marriage will be off kilter…off center. I think we could discuss every possible scenario in the world, but if husbands love their wives the way Christ loved the Church…it’s apparent that would mean that the men don’t turn into tyrants, or the end all be all authority in the home. I can’t imagine having a marriage, where my husband made all the decisions without ever checking with my opinion. That’s not love.

Since we are all unique…yet Catholic…we can safely say that how we each carry out this passage in our marriages, might differ. If the end result is a Christ-like marriage, who cares what anyone else thinks? That’s my thought. *

Thank you whatevergirl. I think your last para sums it up and I agree with it.

 

[severus68]

I’m not sure what you are getting at here, severus, in the parts I bolded. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I can’t understand how you believe that the Church’s teachings “demean men,” or that the Church tells women not to use their brains.

From what I have read and studied, I know that the Church does teach that there are differences between men and women–these differences are physical, psychological, and spiritual. Masculinity and femininity are great gifts from God, and men and women are created to be complementary–physically, psychologically, and spiritually. I’d agree with Jane and severus that to reduce the differences to “love” for women and “respect” for men is NOT the answer–I have a huge problem with that reduction of the word “love” to mushy tender feelings that only women appreciate! But I do think that if we reflect on the differences between men and women that we can see in our own lives and our own marriages, we will see more than a few.

Again, I would say that when it comes to submission in marriage, the primary submission is that which takes place between the spouses. Mutual submission, out of love, to one another. A commitment to the goal of getting one another to heaven. A promise to always put the interests of one’s spouse above their own. A humble imitation of Christ as a servant, who stooped to the ground to wash His friends’ dusty feet.

When we think about how we are to practically live this out as husbands or as wives, I think that is where the complementarity comes back in, and where this passage from Ephesians 5 starts to get to the heart of the matter. Marriage, we are told, is a great mystery, and it represents Christ and the Church. Husbands, we are told, are called to be like Christ; wives, like the Church. If we look at the Church throughout history, we find that She is obedient, but not unthinkingly so (remember all those heretics we had to deal with?!). She is faithful through every challenge. She brings new souls to Christ through baptism, and she brings God’s grace to the world through the sacraments. I can think of so many parallel ways in which wives can live out their vocation to be like the Church in a most beautiful sense.

Sure, one can take offense at the passage and what appears on the page, or we can cynically read the worst in what might have been written by various Catholics over the past 2000 years. It’s hard not to do that. But really Scripture is an invitation to understand and incorporate the Word of God into our lives, and sometimes that takes a little time, trust, and discipline.

My apologies if I was not clear. I was not saying this about the Church. It was about these ideas which some have about men and women. It was a direct response to what JaneGrey said, agreeing with. I do not believe that these ideas come from the teachings of the Church

I am not taking offence at the passage, I am taking offence at uncharitable criticism by some directed at those (like me) differing in their understanding of the passage.

 

[ac_claire]

My apologies if I was not clear. I was not saying this about the Church. It was about these ideas which some have about men and women. It was a direct response to what JaneGrey said, agreeing with. I do not believe that these ideas come from the teachings of the Church

I am not taking offence at the passage, I am taking offence at uncharitable criticism by some directed at those (like me) differing in their understanding of the passage.

Serverus…I never like hearing that I’ve offended. But what exactly has been uncharitable in pointing out that your personal interpretation of Ephesians 5/headship in this thread doesn’t quite line up with the Church’s own teaching? Would it be more charitible to lie and tell you what we think you want to hear, rather than the truth? Remember the spritual works of mercy.

 

[severus68]

Serverus…I never like hearing that I’ve offended. But what exactly has been uncharitable in pointing out that your personal interpretation of Ephesians 5/headship in this thread doesn’t quite line up with the Church’s own teaching? Would it be more charitible to lie and tell you what we think you want to hear, rather than the truth? Remember the spritual works of mercy.

I am sure I did not mention your name and there are those who have said worse to me in this and other threads. I am not thin skinned and not whingeing. Saying that, I do not think it charitable or Christian to push your views in such a manner. I think you are giving your own interpretation and your own views but at least I say you have a right to. You do not give me the same courtesy. I have read extensively on these passages including commentaries accepted by my parish priest and do not see why I should accept what you say as God given.

 

[ac_claire]

I am sure I did not mention your name and there are those who have said worse to me in this and other threads. I am not thin skinned and not whingeing. Saying that, I do not think it charitable or Christian to push your views in such a manner. I think you are giving your own interpretation and your own views but at least I say you have a right to. You do not give me the same courtesy. I have read extensively on these passages including commentaries accepted by my parish priest and do not see why I should accept what you say as God given.

Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that I thought you were talking about me specifically.

Honestly I’d be appalled if you took what I said as God given. I’ve said repeatedly, don’t take my word for it. I’ve only repeated what the Church teaches on this and it just so happens that I also agree with it. I don’t care what your private research has revealed to you if it contradicts the Scriptures and the Church’s teaching, which it appears to do. Headship of the husband is an objective truth, not my opinion.

 

[severus68]

Sorry, didn’t mean to imply that I thought you were talking about me specifically.

Honestly I’d be appalled if you took what I said as God given. I’ve said repeatedly, don’t take my word for it. I’ve only repeated what the Church teaches on this and it just so happens that I also agree with it. I don’t care what your private research has revealed to you if it contradicts the Scriptures and the Church’s teaching, which it appears to do. Headship of the husband is an objective truth, not my opinion.

You would understand then that I do not care for your views as you obviously do not know what a discussion forum is for and I particularly do not care fr the tone in which you say things.

 

[agapewolf]

You would understand then that I do not care for your views as you obviously do not know what a discussion forum is for and I particularly do not care fr the tone in which you say things.

This is a Catholic discussion forum though. While questioning about the teachings and why is fine, if someone presents ideas or beliefs that are contrary to what the church teaches, they must be corrected, so as not to cause confusion.

If our private interpretations contradict what the church teaches, then we can be sure they are not correct. This is one of the ways apparitions are investigated…whether anything contradicts church teaching.

2000 years of unchanged truth is a lot more reliable of an understanding than one person’s private interpretation. That is why we call it building faith upon a rock, and not sand.

 

[whatevergirl]

But, I don’t think severus was ‘rejecting’ Church teaching, and espousing her own interpretation…she was stating that this can be worked out in marriages in different ways. We are not all married to same men…and thus, our marriage dynamics will differ. I think that we all can agree that if our marriages mirror Christ, if we sacrifice for one another…then that is what matters most. I don’t think though that severus is saying that she rejects the passage. I might be wrong…maybe I should reread this thread…AGAIN!

 

[severus68]

This is a Catholic discussion forum though. While questioning about the teachings and why is fine, if someone presents ideas or beliefs that are contrary to what the church teaches, they must be corrected, so as not to cause confusion.

If our private interpretations contradict what the church teaches, then we can be sure they are not correct. This is one of the ways apparitions are investigated…whether anything contradicts church teaching.

2000 years of unchanged truth is a lot more reliable of an understanding than one person’s private interpretation. That is why we call it building faith upon a rock, and not sand.

This is a forum open to all, I believe. If I did not believe in the Church and its teacihngs, I would leave it, thank you. I was replying to one person about the manner of discussion. If this is not a forum open to discussion and debate, then perhaps someone could just post on the teachings of the Church and Catholicism. I would then expect such person to show evidence of his/her learning and knowledge before I would read such posts.However it is not such a forum.

 

[cthulhubryan]

That is a bad translation. I have read that a better translation is to birth with great effort. Biologically we would not exist if childbirth did NOT take effort and some pain. The EFFORT is squeezing the baby out which clears its lungs of amnio fluid. The PAIN is to make one STOP and take note. Imagine walking along and boom the baby falls out. The punishment was for BOTH Adam and Eve.

I would again recommend the Abundant Life episode from EWTN with Father Mitch Pacwa that talks about the bible verse this thread was based on. Father Mitch describes the husband role in being head of the house as being like Christ Crucified. He must be willing to do ANYTHING for the care of his family (wife) to the point of death.

Exactly! The lazy or irresponsible man had better pray that his wife never does submit to him.

By the act of submitting the wife is placing ENORMOUS responsibility on the husband. It’s no gravy train of “Hey, my wife submits so I get dinner brought to me daily and fetch my slippers while you’re at it” It’s a great burden that a true man must take up. By submitting to her husband, the wife acknowledges God’s command and the husband takes up God’s call to responsibility. I will be held to account for myself AND my family.

 

[JaneGrey]

But, I don’t think severus was ‘rejecting’ Church teaching, and espousing her own interpretation…she was stating that this can be worked out in marriages in different ways. We are not all married to same men…and thus, our marriage dynamics will differ. I think that we all can agree that if our marriages mirror Christ, if we sacrifice for one another…then that is what matters most. I don’t think though that severus is saying that she rejects the passage. I might be wrong…maybe I should reread this thread…AGAIN!

I think you re quite right. Catholics cannot go wrong if they use Christ as their guide in their marriages. I just think that maybe people get different things from the same source, everyone worships the same Christ. No one here set out to reject Christ’s teachings.

 

[severus68]

I think you re quite right. Catholics cannot go wrong if they use Christ as their guide in their marriages. I just think that maybe people get different things from the same source, everyone worships the same Christ. No one here set out to reject Christ’s teachings.

Yes, that is how it is JaneGrey and Whatevergirl,thank you. Both partners in any marriage should work out for themselves how they want their marriage to be, what is best for them For Christians, doing your best to follow what Christ taught would result in the best possible marriage. I have in my posts emphasised submission to Christ/God. How can I be wrong in saying that.

 

[whatevergirl]

Yes, that is how it is JaneGrey and Whatevergirl,thank you. Both partners in any marriage should work out for themselves how they want their marriage to be, what is best for them For Christians, doing your best to follow what Christ taught would result in the best possible marriage. I have in my posts emphasised submission to Christ/God. How can I be wrong in saying that.

*Hi there;

Yes, the passage is clear, wives are to submit to their husbands, but HOW that is worked out in each marriage may differ. Not every marriage is the same…but, we should all strive to live out Christ’s teachings.

I think the part that causes this tension in these types of conversations, whether online or off…is that many people think that the passage should be acted out how that person acts it out. That is where the conflict comes in. Not that anyone doesn’t agree with the passage, (well, maybe some do) but rather that again, there is this underlying competition that sometimes goes on with women. Not just with this passage, or topic either. Like this need to tell another woman she isn’t doing all she can for her man, her kids, bla bla. I think that is what you were upset about, although, I didn’t notice it with who you were addressing, ah well.

I am a woman, and will never ever figure that one out, if anyone ever does, please, let me know that mystery of life. We women should stick together, not compete. It’s really not necessary. :grouphug:*

 

[ac_claire]

You would understand then that I do not care for your views as you obviously do not know what a discussion forum is for and I particularly do not care fr the tone in which you say things.

This is a forum open to all, I believe. If I did not believe in the Church and its teacihngs, I would leave it, thank you. I was replying to one person about the manner of discussion. If this is not a forum open to discussion and debate, then perhaps someone could just post on the teachings of the Church and Catholicism. I would then expect such person to show evidence of his/her learning and knowledge before I would read such posts.However it is not such a forum.

It is a Catholic forum though, severus. The impression I’m getting is that what you truly don’t care for is anyone pointing out that your personal opinions are not worthy of consideration when they contradict the Church’s own teachings. My tone is nothing; it’s the words that offend you…If I was instead, with the same tone, praising your personal opinions and stating that they “really aren’t so different from the Church’s after all!” would my tone still offend you? But that would be dishonest, and therefore uncharitable.

True Christ-like love is not all about warm fuzzies and group hugs. I’d never, ever want to be guilty of confirming anyone in their sin, ignorance or pride. I’d hate for someone to do the same thing to me, and I pray none of yall ever do.