Women, how should catholic men treat you?

[KathleenT]

shurgs

I have brothers, I don’t want to be treated as an equal. Men can be rough with each other, their brains and sense of humor isn’t the same as ours. Their social norms aren’t ours.

I want to be treated as a woman. That’s not less than or more than a man. It is just different.

I adjust my behavior and don’t treat men like my girlfriends, I don’t want to be treated like one of the guys.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

Being treated AS AN equal means being treated as someone that is entitled to the same level of respect. Children are equal to adults in human dignity. That doesn’t mean that parents should treat their children AS equals, because children are minors and need to be educated, protected and assisted in order to grow into well rounded adults. So what do you mean when you say women aren’t equal to men? Should we be treated more like children?

In work, I want to be judged on my level of and years of experience - my gender should be largely irrelevant in practice. Obviously I don’t quite think the same way as men which is why there is a push for gender and racial diversity in the workplace. But that shouldn’t affect how I’m treated.

 

[Le_Crouton]

I guess the moral of this thread is: men, whether you open doors or don’t open doors it won’t be good enough lol

 

[dochawk]

So what do you mean when you say women aren’t equal to men? Should we be treated more like children?

Absolutely not.

Again, as I said equal in dignity–but we’re different, and until men can bear children that cannot change.

“Equal” means sameness. Not equal does not imply higher or lower, just difference.

In work, I want to be judged on my level of and years of experience - my gender should be largely irrelevant in practice.

Absolutely. Nothing I wrote suggests otherwise.

But to pull a classic (and wrongly decided) legal case out, you should not work in a battery factory which can cause birth defects in your child bearing years, and men should take the places necessary to protect you from such things.

 

[babochka]

In the modern world, it is nothing more (or less) than a gesture of respect.

In that 1927 Cadillac I got to spend some time with, there was also the practical matter of helping her down from that height . . . [especially in 1920s skirts!]

[sidenote: it was the 1915 Cadillac that actually made it practical for women to drive. Someone Leyland knew was killed when the starting crank hit him in the head, and he set his engineers to design a starter. I can drive cars older than that, but I won’t risk my life starting one just to do it!]

If a woman wants to disable herself with corsets and other impractical clothing (wedding dresses, anyone?) and assistance getting out a car would be useful, by all means, give her a hand!

Many years ago, I was in the Army. When I first started out,

(My [now] son in law actually asked my permission before throwing my daughter in the pool . . . [and, it was justified!] . . . {OK, so the bruise was in front of her heart, and the diagnostics at the ER cost me two grand . . . but worth every penny for what it showed me about him and respect for her . . })

 

[babochka]

Many years ago, I was in the Army. When I first started out, I had a bit of trouble getting into a deuce and a half smoothly and quickly. The guys in my unit would offer a hand and I would gladly take it, as it made the whole process more efficient. The truth is, though, I had to figure out how to do it on my own and that was not going to happen if I never had the opportunity. I observed other women and learned that I needed to swing my body differently so that I would rely more on momentum and less on upper body strength to accomplish the same task.

But to pull a classic (and wrongly decided) legal case out, you should not work in a battery factory which can cause birth defects in your child bearing years, and men should take the places necessary to protect you from such things.

I don’t know the case, but would you apply this equally to all females between the ages of 15 and 45, no matter their state in life? And would this justify discrimination in employment?

 

[ShrodingersCat]

But if a woman desperately needs that job, should she be denied it? You might see it as a man protecting her from having to do a dangerous job, but it could also be seen as a man taking a job that a woman might desperately need - certainly very few women would take it unless it was the only way to avoid destitution. Surely the chivalrous thing would be to let the woman have the job

Jokes aside, I think we are just working off a different understanding of the term “treated as equals”. An Irish person is not equal to an American, yet I would still say “Irish and Americans should be treated as equals in the workplace/in society/by each other”. I suppose it’s a misuse of the term equal, but I don’t think I’m alone in that interpretation.

 

[Lea101]

I think you’re assuming a lot here.

Actually it’s not far off. A few studies have pointed out the link between benevolent sexism (includes chivalry) and hostile sexism, and that the former also predicted gender inequality in cultures. It is a stretch to assume an individual is sexist because he opens doors, but it isn’t when you look at the overall sample.

Being treated AS AN equal means being treated as someone that is entitled to the same level of respect. Children are equal to adults in human dignity. That doesn’t mean that parents should treat their children AS equals, because children are minors and need to be educated, protected and assisted in order to grow into well rounded adults. So what do you mean when you say women aren’t equal to men? Should we be treated more like children?

I think people who immediately bring up obvious biological differences when someone talks about equality are missing the point on purpose. For the reason you just brought up.

Again, as I said equal in dignity–but we’re different, and until men can bear children that cannot change

Because nobody is refuting the biological differences. The point is whether these differences justify patronizing behaviors, inequality of opportunities, etc.

When women say ‘treat me like I’m equal’, they’re not saying ‘pretend I have a scrotum, just like you’. They usually mean to treat them as if you guys are on the same level (I.e. You’re not above them in some imaginary hierarchy, or that they are less capable than you just because of their female-ness).

I guess the moral of this thread is: men, whether you open doors or don’t open doors it won’t be good enough lol

The moral is more of: open the door if you want to, but don’t be annoying and insist that you must do these things for women. If a woman doesn’t want you to do so, just stop and let her open the door. If a woman likes it, yay! Opening the door isn’t a good indicator of a man’s character anyway, so it’s not that serious.

 

[Lea101]

Jokes aside, I think we are just working off a different understanding of the term “treated as equals”. An Irish person is not equal to an American, yet I would still say “Irish and Americans should be treated as equals in the workplace/in society/by each other”. I suppose it’s a misuse of the term equal, but I don’t think I’m alone in that interpretation.

The meaning of equal keeps changing.

When white people in the past were marching and insisting on ‘separate but equal’, they probably thought they aren’t racist.

Also came across some men who say men and women are equal but different, but then literally went on to say that it should be illegal for married women to work, that universities should only allow a small % of women and so on…

The word equal has become rather useless, because people will just label inequality as ‘equal but different’. Equal referring to ‘human dignity’.

 

[JulianN]

Equal in dignity?

A simple “and authority” at the end of this sentence and we’re in complete agreement.

 

[JulianN]

I think we’re defining equal differently, but as I said, I was answering the OP’s question for myself as a Catholic woman. Others are entitled to their own response.

 

[KathleenT]

You do understand being the boss has little to do with how a person “feels”. If your boss gives you a task that’s not unsafe or unethical and within your job skills/requirements refusal to do the task often results in disciplinary actions which can include termination.

It is less about how the female bosses direct reports feel and more how much the rest of management backs her up. The major problems don’t come from below but from above.

Workplace manners and etiquette are different than social etiquette. Getting into a snit over a door is a good way for women to lose respect at work. I have seen it happen, a lot.

 

[tafan2]

And that’s fine. But it goes both ways. And I really have heard men make the complaint I mentioned. It can be confusing to tell boys they have to treat women differently and then expect them to take orders from those women.

Hi, just a quick question to all the gentlemen on this thread who feel that ladies are very delicate and need car doors opening and to be protected from splashes of rain - how do you feel about having a woman boss, taking orders, instructions, and reprimands from a woman?

We are so far apart, I do not know where to begin. Somehow teaching boys to respect women will keep them from respecting women? I don’t get it at all. As a boy, we always had women in authority over us, therefore it could not cause any confusion at that age. Somehow it morphs into confusion when we become adults? Not a chance. There are certainly men who do not respect or treat women correctly, our entire popular culture encourages objectifying women. None of these men do so because they were taught proper manners as boys.

Delicate? Where in the heck do you get the idea we think ladies are delicate? It is one of the last words that would come to mind in describing almost any of the women I have ever known. Certainly if I have ever considered someone delicate, it is not due to their gender. Strange…

Do you run around picking things up for the floor and pulling out chairs for your boss?

When I have had women bosses or in other positions of authority, most certainly I would treat them the same. And it has always been appreciated.

How do you feel about opening car doors for a woman when she is driving?

When my wife is going to drive, for what ever reason, yes I hold the driver’s side door open for her.

And when I realize my wife’s car is about out of gas, yes I will go fill it up for her.

 

[tafan2]

Depends on who did the inviting. And when my husband and I go out for dinner, I’m usually the one filling out the charge slip —just because my wallet is easier to grab.

As far has dealing with money, things can certainly change between a husband and a wife. But as far as dating, this came up a couple of years ago on this forum and my adult kids and spouses happened to be home, so I took an informal poll about dating. Without fail, both the boys and girls all said that the boys always pays while dating, unless they would have been treating their boyfriend for a special occasion such as a birthday. The daughter-in-law and son-in-law I obviously did not raise, so they were not influenced by me, and they agreed. I asked them about how all their friends felt about it, and they all said the same thing: guy pays. So perhaps our kids are sometimes smarter than we are.

 

[Lea101]

I don’t care much for chivalry when it happens (say thank you and move on), but don’t you think some of it somehow leads back to outdated views on women?

If I ask you why you do so for women in general and why they require different treatment, what would your response be? (actually curious here)

 

[tafan2]

I don’t care much for chivalry when it happens (say thank you and move on), but don’t you think some of it somehow leads back to outdated views on women?

First of all, I have avoided the use of the word chivalry. I really don’t like that word. So I will answer your question, reworded a bit. Do I think being a gentleman leads towards outdated views on women?

Lets look at modern views of women, and address it that way. If by modern view of women, we mean that they should be given equal opportunity in the workplace and professionally, not in the least. Again, I do not see how having a mindset that women should be treated with respect and dignity can lead to treating women poorly or having the view that women are inferior. If anything, it should lead to the opposite.

If, on the other hand, we look at the modern view of women how they are portrayed in our popular culture. Then I think it most certainly does. And that is a very, very good thing. I won’t even go into pornography, lets just think about tv shows and movies. I happen to like some of the TV shows like the detective or spy series that are also a little fun. Without fail, if a woman is in a lead role (eg as a detective), she is always dressed in a overly sexy fashion, tintilating even. The men in the same position are always dressed rather conservatively or normal. It sends one message: girls, you want to be professionally successful, show a lot of skin. Or look at popular singers and other performers, same thing. Look at some of the women sports, beach volleyball comes to mind. Look at the swimwear that is marketed to women as opposed to men. I could go on and one. The point is, women are taught at a young age in our culture to present themselves in a certain way, and boys learn to thing of women this way. It is completely objectifying women as sexual objects. I would make the case that women, in this regard, are treated worse today than at any point in our history. So I would hope, in a small way, that learning to act as gentlemen towards women will lead back to an outdated view of women: Women being respected for their femininity.

 

[Elf01]

Delicate? Where in the heck do you get the idea we think ladies are delicate? It is one of the last words that would come to mind in describing almost any of the women I have ever known. Certainly if I have ever considered someone delicate, it is not due to their gender. Strange…

Thinking a woman needs a door held open for her could be read as seeing her as delicate.

 

[tafan2]

Thinking a woman needs a door held open for her could be read as seeing her as delicate

If so, it is only because our society has no idea what being a gentleman is all about. Treating a person with the respect they are due in no way implies they are “delicate”. Some really warped thinking has taken hold. Simply holding a door open for a women shows we are degrading them? But expecting them to show us as much skin as possible is fine and dandy.

 

[Elf01]

Treating a person with the respect they are due in no way implies they are “delicate”.

Why do women require more respect than men?

 

[tafan2]

Because of our fallen human nature. We stop treating women with deference, even a level of awe, and our corrupted nature is likely to kick in and we start viewing them as something less than they are. The evidence of which is all around us in our modern society.
As Catholics, we should, more than anyone else understand this rule of life: our actions affect our beliefs as much or more than our beliefs affect our actions. Why do we treat the Blessed Sacrament with so much respect? Well, if our actions around the Blessed Sacrament reflect that it is something unworldly, that it is being held in awe, that affects our beliefs about the Blessed Sacrament. Why does the Good Lord, in the Blessed Sacrament, need to be treated with so much respect? Certainly Jesus is anything but delicate, certainly Jesus does not need our careful attention to details on his treatment.