"Works" Salvation? Part 2

[guanophore]

Why must these “sacred works” be judged at all if they’re already deemed “sacred” and it was God Himself who prepared them? How could “sacred works” be judged anything less than worthy? And if it was God Himself who prepared them, then how could He judge them anything less than righteous? They’re “sacred” and they’re His. Why should they come under divine scrutiny at all?

Because of free will. Each person can choose, and decide if he wishes to walk in the way that God has prepared for him. I cannot presume the reasons that God will judge the righteous and the unrighteous. What Jesus teaches us is that there will be a judgment. I am surprised you would ask this, Apo. Don’t you think His saints are more under scrutiny than any?

Matt 12:35-37
35 The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Do you think that only the condemned will be judged?

But still, salvation is not based on any work but that which the Son accomplished on the cross. There, and only there, did God have His Judgment Day on ALL our sins. For this reason it (salvation) is through faith:Rom. 5:1-2 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand;

Ahh. You have here noted one of the verses that give us the understanding that justification is the initial stage of salvation. We have obtained our “introduction” by grace, through faith. In order for our standing in that grace to be fully mature, we must persevere. Good job!

Matt 25:31-36

31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

What’s so difficult to understand about Paul’s writings?

“so also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.” 2 Peter 3:15-17

I do not find the writings of Paul hard to understand. I agree that it is a challenge to weave them together with the other scriptures on salvation, some of which refer to elements that Paul does not mention. However, the Apostle Peter notes that Paul expressed himself according to the wisdom given him and that was limited. He had a charism for the work to which God called him, but did not have all the charisms, wisdom, and knowlege that Christ has to give. Some wisdom was also given to others, and it is important to understand how all the wisdom revealed fits together.

 

[apophasis]

Because of free will. Each person can choose, and decide if he wishes to walk in the way that God has prepared for him. I cannot presume the reasons that God will judge the righteous and the unrighteous. What Jesus teaches us is that there will be a judgment. I am surprised you would ask this, Apo. Don’t you think His saints are more under scrutiny than any?

Ah, in your post you talked about the works themselves that are judged. Here you’re saying both the righteous and unrighteous will be judged. So this judgment will determine exactly what, guano?

Ahh. You have here noted one of the verses that give us the understanding that justification is the initial stage of salvation. We have obtained our “introduction” by grace, through faith. In order for our standing in that grace to be fully mature, we must persevere.

Rom. 5:1-2? Notice: ““Therefore having been justified by faith…” Sorry my friend, no process here, a done deal! “We have peace with God…” No process here either because this peace is not earned through works, but is "through our Lord Jesus Christ.” And it is through Him, not some “sacred-works” "we have obtained our introduction (i.e., access) (how?) “by faith into this GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved, divine favor) in which we STAND” (meaning our immovable, position of peace before God).

 

[mikeledes]

Apophasis, so we don’t need to ask for forgiveness in order to be saved? Isn’t that a part of repenting?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Hi,
I know only because I did what the bible told me to do in Romans 10:9-13
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”[a] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

That is some pretty powerful scripture. I believe it and I live it. The underlined part is really how I know because God is telling me and you BTW that if we believe with our heart(not just head knowledge)we are justified.

In my webster dictionary justified means------To show to be right or valid and /or To pronounce free from guilt or blame. That is what initial justification is. When we do what I have above and repent and ask for forgiviness–God justifies us immediately and accepts us as HIS. Then seals us with the HS until the day of redemption.
I base my belief of my salvation solely in having trust and faith in God’s promises. God has already shown us He is trustworthy to keep His promises. So I trust He means what He says.

What I am now going through is the sanctification process which you guys also believe the same you just combine justification and sanctification as one. I am being cleansed daily by the HS and through the HS God is making me more Christ-like as I grow and mature as a christian. MAN IS IT HARD BUT WORTH IT!!

.Yes but we do know through scripture that very few are going to make it to heaven. I dont know what God means when He says very few:shrug:

Yeah I get what you are saying but the bible actually does teach this along with free will so honestly that is as far as I can probably go on the subject. I believe this topic probably needs to be studied and studied and studied before anyone can come to a deep understanding. And you know what maybe NOONE

According to Calvinism, you can’t do anything to save yourself, not even believe. Faith is a gift God exclusively gives to the elect.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Don’t you think there is a difference between trying to fulfill the law by your own strength, and God filling you with the Holy Spirit and working through you by His grace so that you can live a holy life?

Yes I do think there is a difference. One wil never make it on their own. You need God and the HS to help you. Even with the HS we sadly do not follow the Law 100% because of our old sin nature is in us. Thank God for forgiveness:thumbsup:

In heaven we will follow God’s Law 100%. Or do you believe we will sin in heaven?

No we will be perfect in heaven.

God calls us to live holy lives now.

Yes He does

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I think you may want to re-read your New Testament on the place of the law in Jesus’ teachings:

17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:17-20

Is it your goal to be the least in His kingdom? Or, in your world, has the heaven and earth already passed away?

16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
Matt 19:16-17

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” John 14:15

" If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. " John 15:10-11

" Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Rom 13:8-10

“For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.” 1 Cor 7:19

"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. "
1 John 2:2-6

"Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the **rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God **and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. " Rev 12:17

"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints,** those who keep the commandments of God **and the faith of Jesus."Rev 14:12

They don’t sound very “terminated” to me!

Hi,
I agree that we are to do all of those things scripture tells us. But these are the works we do after we have been saved(Justified) by Faith.

I think you need to read Galations concerning the Law vs. Faith:
Galations 3:1–14
Galatians 3
Faith or Observance of the Law
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

6Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. **8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[c] **11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”**d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
I dont know about you but that seems VERY CRYSTAL CLEAR

**

 

[ALLFORHIM]

mikeledes:
According to Calvinism, you can’t do anything to save yourself, not even believe. Faith is a gift God exclusively gives to the elect.

God Bless,
Michael

Well I do believe that. My minister gave a great sermon on the elect and predestination and free will. I saved it so I could use it here. If I can get my act together I will post it. I should probably start a new thread though. I dont want to hijack this one. I certainly have all day. I live in NJ and we are under a State of emergency and not really suppose to go out. Because I am somewhat of a defiant child–I am going to take my son to the river so he can see what a flood looks like first hand. If I can get there. Many roads are closed in my neighborhood.

Talk to you later.

 

[apophasis]

Apophasis, so we don’t need to ask for forgiveness in order to be saved? Isn’t that a part of repenting?

God Bless,
Michael

No. To “repent” is to change one’s mind; go another direction. In Biblical salvation it’s to turn from unbelief to belief in Jesus Christ. And part of that belief is BELIEVING the message that your sins ARE forgiven by God through the, once for all, sacrificial work of His Son.Acts 13:38 "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,Catholicism is still dealing with sins sacramentally that God dealt with, once for all, sacrificially through His Son. To believe IN Him is to believe the message of what He alone could accomplished for you, once for all.

That’s why it’s called the “gospel” (good news).

Catholics on this forum get the “Gospel accounts,” (Matt., Mk., Lk., & Jn.,) mixed up with the “gospel message” which is the declaration of forgiveness of sins through faith (not confessing them) in Jesus Christ.

One confesses (acknowledges) he’s sinned and is a sinner by the very act of turning to Christ in belief. If he instead believes he can confess away his sins and thereby be save, then he has not truly repented, turned away from *unbelief *to belief in the One who was sacrificed, once for all, for the divine forgiveness of his sins, resulting in salvation.

 

[mikeledes]

That is not an issue. Even our “sola fide” brethren accept that. The question is, are you SAVED by them?

How do you render that?
Eph 3:6
6 that is, how the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Are the Gentiles just “hanging around”?

“for you are all partakers with me of grace” Phil 1:7

Is this “salvation by association”?

"by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. "2 Peter 1:4-5

People don’t really “acquire” the divine nature? they just hang with it?

The apostle is saying that it "is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy,Heb 6:4-6

If you can’t be restored to repentance, it is because you repented once before! If you have “tasted” of the heavenly gift then you have done more than just “hang around”. It is impossible to commit apostasy (falling away) unless you were hanging on to something in the first place! I know this passage really throws a wrench into the OSAS thinking, but let’s be honest!

That is a REAL stretch. The text gives no indication that the people in Luke 5:7 were believers, or not. Furthremore, I have posted several examples of “partakers” that are clearly believers.

I will wait to see how you are going to explain away all the common associations and events in the citations I placed above.

It is, but you can’t commit apostasy unless you first believed.

I have no doubt that the descriptions you are making are accurate. My disagreement is that Heb. is referring to these people.

Actually, there are a lot of references including within. Upon, among, etc.

This is not consistent with the other teachings of scripture. If they had not faith, they could not partake. The reason Jesus did so little healing in Nazareth is because they did not believe in Him. Countless times He says “you faith has healed you”. These people had faith. Maybe they were like the seeds that fell on rocky ground, but they most definitely sprouted.

And how do you imagine that they can taste, or be enlightened without that? You know that without faith, it is impossible. You know that no one can be enlightened except by God’s grace. No one can taste of heaven apart from His saving grace!

I would jsut like to add a couple of things to your post. The Letter to the Hebrews is specifically dealing with the sin of apostasy. So Hebrews 6 is directky connected to Hebrews 10

**28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? **

So how was this person sanctified by the blood of Christ if he/she did not actually partake of the Holy Spirit? Granted, “sanctified” can be used in different ways in Scripture. But the expression “sanctified by the blood of Christ” is always used in reference to someone who has been justified.

Regarding the use of the word “enlightened”, this word is used in reference to genuine Christians:

Hebrews 10:32 (New American Standard Bible)

32But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings,

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

Truthstalker:

The problem is that if you take it at face-value, as many verses have been taken on this thread, you can only conclude something was lacking in Christ’s saving work - something that required someone else’s work for completion. There has been an overinsistence on the absolute sovereignty of the work of Christ, without anyone else’s involvement, yet here Paul - that theologian par excellence, according to some - says Christ’s afflictions were not complete for the sake of the church. The verse suggests cooperation - Paul does not seem to be forced to suffer but rejoices in suffering.

Four graphs later, Calvin continues:

Papists, however, disregarding and setting aside all these things, have struck out a new contrivance in order that they may establish their system of indulgences. They give the name of indulgences to a remission of punishments, obtained by us through the merits of the martyrs. For, as they deny that there is a gratuitous remission of sins, and allege that they are redeemed by satisfactory deeds, when the satisfactions do not fill up the right measure, they call into their help the blood of the martyrs, that it may, along with the blood of Christ, serve as an expiation in the judgment of God. And this mixture they call the *treasure of the Church *, the keys of which they afterwards intrust to whom they think fit. Nor are they ashamed to wrest this passage, with the view of supporting so execrable a blasphemy, as if Paul here affirmed that his sufferings are of avail for expiating the sins of men.

They urge in their support the term husteramata, (things wanting,) as if Paul meant to say, that the sufferings which Christ has endured for the redemption of men were insufficient. There is no one, however, that does not see that Paul speaks in this manner, because it is necessary, that by the afflictions of the pious, the body of the Church should be brought to its perfection, inasmuch as the members are conformed to their head. I should also be afraid of being suspected of calumny in repeating things so monstrous, if their books did not bear witness that I impute nothing to them groundlessly. They urge, also, what Paul says, that he suffers for the Church. It is surprising that this refined interpretation had not occurred to any of the ancients, for they all interpret it as we do, to mean, that the saints suffer for the Church, inasmuch as they confirm the faith of the Church. Papists, however, gather from this that the saints are redeemers, because they shed their blood for the expiation of sins. That my readers, however, may perceive more clearly their impudence, allow that the martyrs, as well as Christ, suffered for the Church, but in different ways, as I am inclined to express in Augustine’s words rather than in my own. For he writes thus in his 84th treatise on John: “Though we brethren die for brethren, yet there is no blood of any martyr that is poured out for the remission of sins. This Christ did for us. Nor has he in this conferred upon us matter of imitation, but ground of thanksgiving.” Also, in the fourth book to Bonifacius: “As the only Son of God became the Son of man, that he might make us sons of God, so he has alone, without offense, endured punishment for us, that we may through him, without merit, obtain undeserved favor.” Similar to these is the statement of Leo Bishop of Rome; “The righteous received crowns, did not give them; and for the fortitude of believers there have come forth examples of patience, not gifts of righteousness. For their deaths were for themselves, and no one by his latter end paid the debt of another.”

Now, that this is the meaning of Paul’s words is abundantly manifest from the context, for he adds, that he suffers according to the dispensation that was given to him. And we know that the ministry was committed to him, not of redeeming the Church, but of edifying it; and he himself immediately afterwards expressly acknowledges this. This is also what he writes to Timothy,

that he endures all things for the sake of the elect, that they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus.
(2 Timothy 2:10.)
Also, in 2 Corinthians 1:4, that

he willingly endures all things for their consolation and salvation.

Let, therefore, pious readers learn to hate and detest those profane sophists, who thus deliberately corrupt and adulterate the Scriptures, in order that they may give some color to their delusions.

Truthstalker:

Calvin’s commentary, interestingly enough, on this verse has Paul in partnership with Christ. And what is partnership but cooperation? Perhaps Calvin is too Catholic for our Calvinists.

Does that sound too Catholic?

(Calvin’s comments on Col 1:24 can be read here).

 

[sandusky]

mikeledes:

According to Calvinism, you can’t do anything to save yourself, not even believe. Faith is a gift God exclusively gives to the elect.

The underlined, and bolded statement, is not true.

 

[guanophore]

In Biblical salvation it's to turn from unbelief to belief in Jesus Christ.  And part of that belief is BELIEVING the message that your sins ARE forgiven by God through the, *once for all*, sacrificial work of His Son.**Acts 13:38** "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,Catholicism is still dealing with sins *sacramentally* that God dealt with, *once for all*, *sacrificially* through His Son.  To believe IN Him is to believe the message of what He alone could accomplished for you, *once for all*.

That’s why it’s called the “gospel” (good news).

Catholics on this forum get the “Gospel accounts,” (Matt., Mk., Lk., & Jn.,) mixed up with the “gospel message” which is the declaration of forgiveness of sins through faith (not confessing them) in Jesus Christ.

One confesses (acknowledges) he’s sinned and is a sinner by the very act of turning to Christ in belief. If he instead believes he can confess away his sins and thereby be save, then he has not truly repented, turned away from *unbelief *to belief in the One who was sacrificed, once for all, for the divine forgiveness of his sins, resulting in salvation.

I think you only say this because you don’t understand sacraments. In the sacraments, we experience the grace that God has poured out, and personally apply those graces to our lives. When the sacraments are approached with faith (and I will agree that some Catholics do not, resulting in a form of godliness without the power therof) we meet Christ in person, and afail ourselves of His sacrifice, the forgivenss of sins, resulting in salvation. Jesus instituted the sacraments as the normal means whereby we can access these graces.

 

[sandusky]

I would jsut like to add a couple of things to your post. The Letter to the Hebrews is specifically dealing with the sin of apostasy.

Part of the letter deals with apostasy, and those who are Christ’s will never apostatize, and they will never perish.

 

[Pax]

Sandusky,

You’ve made a statement about apostasy but you have not provided a proof for your position. The context of Hebrews clearly disagrees with you. Perhaps, I’m missing something in Hebrews. Please clarify. Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

According to Calvinism, you can’t do anything to save yourself, not even believe. Faith is a gift God exclusively gives to the elect.

God Bless,
Michael

Can you substantiate this assertion, Michael? I understand that Calvanism teaches that faith resides in every person, but that it only meets with God’s grace in the case of the elect, who are destined for salvation. Otherwise, their faith is placed in those things which grant not life,and therefore, lead to perdition.

 

[mikeledes]

Part of the letter deals with apostasy, and those who are Christ’s will never apostatize, and they will never perish.

Not according to Hebrews. Or can those who never were in Christ be a partaker of the Holy Spirit, sanctified by the blood of Christ, and be renewed again to a repentance they never had?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Can you substantiate this assertion, Michael? I understand that Calvanism teaches that faith resides in every person, but that it only meets with God’s grace in the case of the elect, who are destined for salvation. Otherwise, their faith is placed in those things which grant not life,and therefore, lead to perdition.

I have always understood that Calvinism teaches that genuine saving faith if a gift of God given exclusively to the elect. The common argument being that a dead person cannot bring himself/herself to life.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

I have always understood that Calvinism teaches that genuine saving faith if a gift of God given exclusively to the elect. The common argument being that a dead person cannot bring himself/herself to life.

God Bless,
Michael

Yes, but I think it is grace that is given as the gift, and that grace regenerates a person so that they can apply the faith. Faith is a faculty of man with which He is born. Man is just not able to apply his faith without regenerative grace.

That is why there is no such thing as salvation by works! God provides the grace, man provides the faith, an the two working together produce salvation in a person (that part is not Calvanist, that is Catholic). By grace we are saved through faith (the human element through which God’s grace works).

The application of faith is the part of man,and could be considered a “work” in as much as it requires th action of a person in response to God’s grace:

John 6:28-29
29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

 

[sandusky]

Sandusky,

You’ve made a statement about apostasy but you have not provided a proof for your position. The context of Hebrews clearly disagrees with you. Perhaps, I’m missing something in Hebrews. Please clarify. Thanks.

Be specific with your question.

 

[Pax]

A question for Apophasis, Sandusky, Linkowski, and AllForHIm:

As non-Catholic Christians do you believe that at the point of becoming initially justified, i.e when a person first believes with saving faith, that the person is forever saved because they are made permanently blameless in the eyes of God?