"Works" Salvation?

[Linkowski]

Speaking of typical responses

What does this mean for faith alone then? Because what you are saying here is that faith, without love cannot save you.

Nonetheless though I got it, no love (no matter how much faith some one has) no salvation…

So just to recap now,

I have to:

Have faith
repent
empty self-rightousness
and now love Him

Jeeze salvation according to you has so much work involved.

Anything else that I need to do? do I need obedience? Do I need to read the Bible? Do I need to witness and spread the Gospel?

God bless

I will not answer your sarcastic folly.

 

[Linkowski]

I will make an analogy…

The Catholic faith as I was taught:
You must pass this test and you will be smart…SO…put A for this answer, and D for that answer…C for that answer, True for that answer, False for that answer - and so on and so on.

Voila!! You are smart!!

The Bible says…if you are smart, you will pass this test…BUT…to be smart, go to “The omniscient one” and submit to Him and humbly admit your shortcomings before Him…Call upon Him and ask Him to give you those gifts that would therefore make you smart. Take the test and you will pass with flying colors!

Which one was smart?

Holiness is not the way to Christ, Christ is the Way to holiness!

 

[sandusky]

Holiness is not the way to Christ, Christ is the Way to holiness!

[SIGN]Holiness is not the way to Christ,
Christ is the Way to holiness…

AMEN!!

Brilliant![/sign]

 

[guanophore]

Yet in respect to salvation RCism does believe and teach those works are meritorious in respect to gaining one’s salvation. And for this reason, contrary to the Gospel message presented by Christ and the Apostles, a RC is never assured of salvation during this life time.

However, according to Apostolic teaching (especially Pauline), the works required for salvation (reconciliation, redemption, propitiation) were accomplished entirely by Another, the Man Christ Jesus, through His substitutionary sin-sacrifice on the cross (2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 5:11; 2 Cor. 5:18-19; Rom. 3:24; 1 Cor. 1:30; Rom. 8:25; Heb. 2:17; 1 Jn. 2:2; 4:10). And that finished work is appropriated by God, in full, to the believer at the time of personal belief in Christ (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24).

(1) In respect to salvation the teaching of RCism is notoriously inconsistent: what it builds up it tears down; what it gives it takes away again. (2) In respect to divine salvation one is not allowed to commingle grace and works:

Rom. 11:6 “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

I don’t think so. Catholicism teaches that salvation is by grace, through faith. We are justified by the death of Jesus on the cross. That being said, it also teaches that a person that practices this type of faith will demonstrate that faith through one’s actions. If one fails to demonstrate it, then one is no longer connected to that saving grace. As it says in John, “my brothers, let us love in word or in deed …because if one does not love his brother, how can he say he belongs to Christ”? It is not so much a co-mingling, I think as it is a logical following. If a person is within a saving faith,then one will demonstrate it by one’s deeds. In those cases, yes, the deeds impact ones sanctification. It may be a matter of semantics. For most protestants, they refer to salvation or justification, and the path to following Christ one of being made in likeness with Him. Catholics call that process sanctification (becoming holy). The process of sanctification does require “good works” (working out ones salvation with fear and trembling) but does not begin until one is first justified by saving faith. Does that make any sense?

 

[guanophore]

Excerpt from 1345 in the CCC:

“Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so **that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.” **

As a Catholic growing up, it was this kind of language that really made me believe that I have to earn salvation and favor with God. Do you not agree that this type of teaching fosters a “works” salvation (works being the means of our salvation?? Truly, the commandments were not given that we might obtain salvation through them but that the knowledge of sin would come by them. That is the first and foremost purpose of the law/commandments. Otherwise, I as a Christian, now love His law and live by it - out of love for Him and to please Him…not as a means of salvation.

Romans 3:20 KJV 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Looking for comments.

I see your point, and I do agree, this type of language can be misunderstood. If it is not coupled with appropriate teaching about salvation by grace, then it does leave the Catholic lopsided, as many of us are, or have been.

I recommend this resource:

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9710chap.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0410fea4sb.asp

The apologists do a much better job than I can.

 

[Linkowski]

I will make an analogy…

The Catholic faith as I was taught:
You must pass this test and you will be smart…SO…put A for this answer, and D for that answer…C for that answer, True for that answer, False for that answer - and so on and so on.

Voila!! You are smart!!

The Bible says…if you are smart, you will pass this test…BUT…to be smart, go to “The omniscient one” and submit to Him and humbly admit your shortcomings before Him…Call upon Him and ask Him to give you those gifts that would therefore make you smart. Take the test and you will pass with flying colors!

Which one was smart?

Holiness is not the way to Christ, Christ is the Way to holiness!

To add to this - you cannot orchestrate the Christian life for another. It must be orchestrated by God.

Prewritten prayers, statues, sacraments, lent, repetative prayer, - do this do that for salvation…you cannot orchestrate it. You take the very heart out of Christianity and the person just becomes an instrument that the Church plays - a dead instrument. That is exactly what I was.

 

[NotWorthy]

That is because I am confident in the ability of the one in whom I have placed my faith to save me forever (Heb 7:25); I can’t do it.

Evidently, you have more confidence than St. Paul, or else he wouldn’t have been working on his Salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[sandusky]

Evidently, you have more confidence than St. Paul, or else he wouldn’t have been working on his Salvation with fear and trembling.

I said that in my post #77. (I’m not ignoring your last post, just have a few things to attend to; same for Lazerlike43).

 

[Randy_Carson]

It is interesting how you try to twist my comments - please don’t do that.

I didn’t mean to. I thought I was quoting you straight up.

1. Was my misunderstanding the fault of my own?? I was in Catechism every Monday…I did everything that I was supposed to - and yet still had this belief that I had to do good to get to heaven - this falls in line to every other Catholic that I talk to about salvation - they seem to pick up the same teaching.

Twenty kids are sitting in a math class listening to the teacher explain how to find the area of a right triangle. Later, on the the test, some get it right and some get it wrong. Yet, they all heard the same lecture. Who’s fault is it? I can’t possibly know how involved your parents were or how much time you spent on your CCD homework outside of class or how much time you spent flirting with Suzie Blutarski in class when you were there each week. Perhaps your CCD teacher was simply incompetent. Who knows?

However, I do seem to recall Paul’s statement:

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

If this applies to those who did not have the full Gospel, how much more to those who had it laid out for them? And all the more so now that you have access to so much rich material clarifying your misunderstanding and so many helpful apologists online here to help you! :tiphat:

1. I said that I usually do not see Catholic acting quite as extreme as the Pharisees - but the attitude of - I keep the commandments and try to do good things as a means of salvation would fit along with this passage…

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Far be it from me to argue against the idea of all men coming to a deeper understanding of their faith.

1. Yes - I took it out of context - but that which was taken out of context is contradictory to scripture and to other parts of the CCC.How can this be? The part you quoted is part of a larger teaching. If you don’t have your arms around the whole, then how can you understand the meaning of the part in context?

My bigger point is that given what you know now and what you didn’t know then, doesn’t it make sense to revisit Catholicism with an open mind?

 

[Linkowski]

The Greek verb rendered “work out” means “to continually work to bring something to fulfillment or completion.” It cannot refer to salvation by works (cf. Rom. 3:21–24; Eph. 2:8, 9), but it does refer to the believer’s responsibility for active pursuit of obedience in the process of sanctification (Phil. 3:13, 14; Rom. 6:19; 1 Cor. 9:24–27; 15:58; 2 Cor. 7:1; Gal. 6:7–9; Eph. 4:1; Col. 3:1–17; Heb. 6:10, 11; 12:1, 2; 2 Pet. 1:5–11). Fear and trembling is the attitude with which Christians are to pursue their sanctification. It involves a healthy fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect for Him (Prov. 1:7; 9:10; Is. 66:1, 2).

This is the same thing as Peter says in 2 Peter 1:10…

2 Peter 1:10 NAS95 10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

As well as…

1 Timothy 6:12 NAS95 12 Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

You disregard other very clear scriptures which is evident due to the fact that you interpret scriptures in such a way that these interpretations contradict these other scriptures that make clear reference to salvation being done in the believer…

Hebrews 10:14 KJV 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

John 13:10 NAS95 10 Jesus *said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”

1 John 5:13 NAS95 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:19 KJV 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Etc…

We are to be diligent to keep the faith, yes…but study 1 John very clearly…he explains evidences of salvation and not conditions…then says…I have written these things that you might know that you have eternal life…I see these evidences in my life as evidence of the grace of God that has saved me…and is sanctifying me. Why have you ignored these other scriptures and not sought to reconcile your interpretations with their obvious meanings?

 

[guanophore]

I am merely speaking of the attitude…I did not say that Catholics go around doing what that Pharisee did. The boastful attitude is what I speak of…the attitude that is contrary to the humility in the beginning of the Beatitudes.

Out of context? Maybe so…but we certainly see mixed messages…and I as well as the other Catholic folk that I talk to witness to the overall teaching that seems to indicate a works-based salvation. That is all I have…I do not want to drag this out.

I think most Catholics would say that it is arrogant and boastful to have “assurance of salvation”.

I don’t think the messages are mixed, maybe their connection is not well taught, however. In most of Catholic teaching, it is not “either/or” but “both/and”. Salvation by faith / works is a good example of that. yes, one is justified by faith. Yes, one is also expected to demonstrate this justification (salvation) by one’s actions.

James 2:18

18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

There is a discussion of this principle in the bible study section called CAF bible study on James, if you are interested.

 

[NotWorthy]

To add to this - you cannot orchestrate the Christian life for another. It must be orchestrated by God.

** Prewritten prayers, statues, sacraments, lent, repetative prayer, - do this do that for salvation…you cannot orchestrate it. **You take the very heart out of Christianity and the person just becomes an instrument that the Church plays - a dead instrument. That is exactly what I was.

Link, you actually think we do this for salvation? Pre-written prayers are our petitions to the Lord. You want to belittle that?

The Statues and Stained Glass Windows are called the Bible for the poor man. For those who couldn’t read, it helped to bring the Gospels to them.

The Sacraments are Christs promises of Eternal Life. Baptism, the Eucharist, Reconciliation, Anointing of the Sick, etc… It’s Biblical!

Lent? How can you think that a Catholic that Sacrifices something for Christ in memory of His Sacrfice for us is a bad thing?

Repetitive Prayer? Anything that keeps my mind focused on God and living a good and holy life should not be a bad thing.

 

[Linkowski]

I think most Catholics would say that it is arrogant and boastful to have “assurance of salvation”.

I don’t think the messages are mixed, maybe their connection is not well taught, however. In most of Catholic teaching, it is not “either/or” but “both/and”. Salvation by faith / works is a good example of that. yes, one is justified by faith. Yes, one is also expected to demonstrate this justification (salvation) by one’s actions.

James 2:18

18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

There is a discussion of this principle in the bible study section called CAF bible study on James, if you are interested.

If it is arrogant and boastful…you need to speak with the writer of Hebrews and 1 John…God.

Hebrews 10:39 KJV 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 John 5:13 KJV 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:19 KJV 19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

 

[NotWorthy]

I said that in my post #77. (I’m not ignoring your last post, just have a few things to attend to; same for Lazerlike43).

No problems, and I hope you didn’t think I was accusing. If I missed post #77, I’m sorry.

I’ll look at it.

 

[Linkowski]

Link, you actually think we do this for salvation? Pre-written prayers are our petitions to the Lord. You want to belittle that?

The Statues and Stained Glass Windows are called the Bible for the poor man. For those who couldn’t read, it helped to bring the Gospels to them.

The Sacraments are Christs promises of Eternal Life. Baptism, the Eucharist, Reconciliation, Anointing of the Sick, etc… It’s Biblical!

Lent? How can you think that a Catholic that Sacrifices something for Christ in memory of His Sacrfice for us is a bad thing?

Repetitive Prayer? Anything that keeps my mind focused on God and living a good and holy life should not be a bad thing.

I did not say that you do these to be saved - although the CCC says the Sacraments are necessary for salvation…but, the fact that these things are introduced to the catechumen causes them to become spiritually lazy and dead. I have my own lent…own prayer…etc.

Also, show me the cermonies of the Sacraments in the Bible. Just like you cannot find the sinner’s prayer (although some will show it to you…this turns out to be a sacrament to some), you cannot find these Sacraments the way the Catholic Church presents them.

 

[Linkowski]

I will make an analogy…

The Catholic faith as I was taught:
You must pass this test and you will be smart…SO…put A for this answer, and D for that answer…C for that answer, True for that answer, False for that answer - and so on and so on.

Voila!! You are smart!!

The Bible says…if you are smart, you will pass this test…BUT…to be smart, go to “The omniscient one” and submit to Him and humbly admit your shortcomings before Him…Call upon Him and ask Him to give you those gifts that would therefore make you smart. Take the test and you will pass with flying colors!

Which one was smart?

Holiness is not the way to Christ, Christ is the Way to holiness!

 

[havemercy]

Holiness is not the way to Christ, Christ is the Way to holiness!

Truly wonderful and wise. Dare I even say, inspired?

Just don’t use that as an excuse for having failed to bear fruit on the Day of Judgment, okay?
John 15:1-8:

I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.
He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit.
You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.
I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.
Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.
By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples.

 

[Linkowski]

I very much agree with you…

Anyway…I have six little ones to put to bed and a wife to spend time with…so I have to go.

May we all seek truth…

 

[havemercy]

May we all seek truth…

Amen.

Anyway…I have six little ones to put to bed and a wife to spend time with…so I have to go.

Peace be with you and your family! I say a prayer for you all.

 

[guanophore]

But based on Scripture … What separates man from God is sin, not lack of works (Heb. 1:3). Works may follow a sin-cleansed man who has put his faith in the word concerning the substitutionary sin-sacrifice of Christ on his behalf (the word of the cross), but even those "enabled works" are not the basis on which he was saved. Sin was always the issue, not works - whether an abundance of them or lack of them.

If a person lacks the grace of salvation, and has never been justified by faith, would this not be clearly evident by their works? Even so, works do separate man from God, because if a person is not justified and not in a state of grace before God, then such a person will persist in evil deeds. Likewise, if a person is walking in grace, then such a person will reflect that state by their fruit/deeds.

I guess I don’t understand why it is so important for you to separate the two, since Jesus does not, and why it is so important for you to maintain that Catholics should separate them.