Worst Liturgical Abuses?

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Tantum ergo said:
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Originally Posted by Agomemnon
#1 is always an abuse. Inaestimable Donum. Altae Sunt. For 2 sources of information. Its an evil practice. Its a liturgical lie, and if it continues much longer my family will not be attending Novus Ordo Masses much longer.

From Marauder:
Sorry dude, the Vatican has allowed female altar servers as long as the local Bishop has allowed them. It isn’t an abuse if the Vatican allows it. It can be your opinion that it isn’t appropriate, but it is only that.

The Vatican is allowed to change practices within the church. The allowing of female altar servers is a practice, not a matter of faith and morals. The only way it would violate previous things would be if they allowed the ordained version of acolytes.>>

Gee, Ago, I’m sorry you don’t like the approved practice of female altar servers so much that you would STOP ATTENDING MASS because of it. (Of course, if you have an indult parish and you prefer the Latin Mass there, you’re more than welcome to attend that). OTOH, if the SOLE reason you would attend the Latin Mass is because you have a hang-up on the APPROVED practice of female altar servers in the N.O., then you’re not attending Mass worthily, as you’re doing so more in DEFIANCE of Church teachings, as a “Protest”. Hmmm, Protest to Protestant, perhaps? Let’s hope not.

There are plenty of legitimate (so to speak) church abuses to worry about. Getting in a dither over NON ABUSES–I am sorry if you’re disappointed, but female altar servers are NOT a liturgical abuse–is completely unproductive. You’re focusing on a non issue and turning THAT into your own personal “grievance” with God through his representatives here, the Pope and bishops. “My way or the highway” seems to be your take on “female altar servers”. Well, last I knew you’re neither the Pope nor a bishop. You can disagree with them, but “unless this abuse stops we won’t be attending Mass any more” is NOT respectful disagreement, it’s a calculated attempt at emotional blackmail. The issue of altar servers (female) is NOT something that is up for discussion or debate as to whether it’s ALLOWED. It IS allowed. So, write to your bishop, tell him your feelings, make your points (respectfully, please), but in the end, you HAVE to abide by his decision, like it or not. Female altar servers are part of DISCIPLINE which CAN change, under the aegis of the HOLY SPIRIT. Discipline is not doctrine or dogma, which CANNOT. Attempting to make the issue doctrinal or dogma (which is what you are attempting to do) is specious, IMO.
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How to I respond to so many erroneous statements?
Inaestimable Donum reiterated the right of the faithful to attend Mass without the abuse of female’s acting as alter servers. You don’t agree with John Paul II?

You say ‘approved’. Well I disagree. How can I disagree…then why so much restriction on the ‘indult’ that if it were faithfully followed it could almost never be used? Or the fact that the supposed indult is only for non-public masses (special occasions) so the faithful arent’ subject to this ideology. Why is the supposed exception always becomes the rule of abuse in America???

How about the fact that John Paul II has told the bishops that they are to maintain the laudible practice of only boys serving? The Pope and the Vatican’s unwillingness to curb abuses like this doesn’t make it approved or good. It makes it an act of weakness and capitulation. Amazingly non of this nonesense was pushed so hard until John Paull II grew weaker from Parkinsons.

No. I will state what all the Popes and Patriarchs have always said…that women serving the altar is an abuse and an evil practice and only men are to serve.
 
I am glad this post “woke up” again. We have so many new members since it went a little dormant. I wanted to put my observation in before the thread gets shut down by a moderator for meanness. 🙂 (not the meanness of the moderator LOL)

Lately, I have seen so many abuses:

Using the Apostle’s Creed at regulary Sunday Mass (not a children’s Mass).

Not saying any creed at all on Solemnities that fall on weekdays.

EMCHs enter the Sancturary right after the Lord’s prayer.

Priest sitting while EMHCs distribute communion.

Priest skips the washing of the hands.

Use of clay or ceramic chalices.

Singing of “odd” songs at Mass. Like “I’ve Got Jesus Down in my Heart” at First Communion. (ok for VBS, but not Mass).

Mixing of Consecrated Hosts with unconsecrated ones at a Communion Service (not Mass).

Using non Scriptural readings in place of the Responsorial Psalm.

Congregation reads the whole Responsorial Psalm together, not just the response.

But the one that makes me cry is the Jesuit “priest in residence” who changes *every single part * of the Mass, other than the words of Consecration. The fact that he leaves the Consecration alone tells me that he knows that that is the line that will turn illicit into invalid and he is pushing as far as he can. :mad:
 
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Agomemnon:
The Pope and the Vatican’s unwillingness to curb abuses like this doesn’t make it approved or good. It makes it an act of weakness and capitulation. Amazingly non of this nonesense was pushed so hard until John Paull II grew weaker from Parkinsons…
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I tend to sadly agree with much of this.
I seem to remember that the question of girl servers was raised right after the Holy Father fell and broke his hip.
Female servers had already been expressly forbidden.
I wondered then why such a trivial question was being posed to him during a time when he must have been experiencing excruciating pain, or was possibly sedated.

And the word is not exactly “approved,” but rather “permitted.”

That’s almost like the parents that tell their daughter, “We want you remain a virgin until marriage, but* in case you can’t*, go to Planned Parenthood!” Or a child who repeatedly disobeys to the point that the exasperated parents cave in and let him have his way.

The Holy Father asks that we use male servers, and in areas of need, females may be permitted, if approved by the bishop.

At that, most bishops wholeheartedly encouraged instituting female servers…(well, many dioceses were already using them long before that permission had been granted!)

That said…

The most recent abuse I saw was this morning…

The Precious Blood of Our Lord being served in glass goblets.

P.S. ~ This thread can be helpful to some who may be unwittingly participating in some of these abuses. It’s also therapeudic. Haven’t you ever heard that “misery loves company?!” 😛

Pax Christi. <><
 
i saw a muslim cleric proclaim the gospel reading and he gave the homily
 
Worst abuse - invalid Easter Vigil Mass - FAther consecrated cool aid - and did not regroup when he realized it. The coolaid was a “Prop” for decoration on the alter during the Thurs Mass. Everyone thought that the Wine was special because it was Easter.
 
The worst incident I personally witnessed was the Priest begining the ‘consecration’ with “Perhaps on the last night” Perhaps!!!

I had just reverted at the time and was a bit shy to complain so an elderly friend complained to the Bishop’s secretary on my behalf. He confidently told her she was experiencing ‘Chaos of the elderly’ Not only did this miff her as she did not consider herself elderly, but shut him up when she told him the person who had asked her to report this was 24.

A distant second was the Priest who throughout the Mass said “In the Name of The Father, The Son and the sanctified spirits”

Since then I have attended a Tridentine Mass were the worst abuses are ill fitting cassocks and surplices for Altar boys and poor organ playing.

Chris from South Africa
 
My parish of 6 years ago in Kearney, Nebraska never mixed water with the wine. There wasn’t even water available near the altar. Every once in a while a visiting priest would insist that a glass of water be left on the altar so that they could add it to the wine.

That parish also used a liturgical dancer two or three times a year to incense the alter during the entrance procession. She came in leading the priest with a bowl of burning incense and danced around the altar with it. She wore leotards.

During the creed they replaced “for all men” with “for all”.

I was seriously considering driving 40 or so miles to get to a parish under a different bishop when we moved away for other reasons.

Clint
 
At my the church in my College town, after September 11th, we replaced the 2nd reading with an excerpt from the Koran. Although the priest’s intention was nice, he should not have thrown out the second reading. If he really wanted us to hear that passage from the Koran, he could have read it durring the homily.
 
I don’t understand how this stuff is happening. It is so apparent that the actions constitute abuses. Is it possible that some of the Priest do not know? I really think that the lay people who don’t read forums just think that maybe things have changed and don’t realize abuses are occuring. I am not sure that since I am a new Catholic whether to say something or just continue to study and learn and when I am more knowlegable fight the battles. I want to see things done in the correct way but I am still trying to learn what that is. I will wait for responses from some of the senior members of this forum. This is a great resource for me to learn about my new faith. Thanks to all the posters who help us learn and to recognize that some of the things we are being taught at our own parishes may possibly not be correct.
 
I don’t understand how this stuff is happening. It is so apparent that the actions constitute abuses. Is it possible that some of the Priest do not know?
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I know how some of the abuses happened in my church under the last pastor. They usually involved the Liturgy Committee bringing up some “inovation” they heard from a nearby parish that works and sounds great.

The Liturgy Committee would then do no research as to whether the thing was appropriate or allowed and then bring it up with the pastor who had an “anything that brings more people to the Mass is good” attitude and let them run with it.

Luckily most of this was stopped when a new pastor was brought in.

I remember one time walking through the hall and saw one of the Nuns really upset. It seems she needed to get “permission” from the senior person on the Liturgy committee to get something in a Mass (note: the thing was well within litergical guidelines.) The liturgist wouldn’t allow it. This Nun’s comment was “I have a degree in Theology and this person with no training is telling me what is appropriate in a Mass.”
 
A question for some of the experts: At my church the music director has been changing the music of the Gloria and Holy Holy Holy to more upbeat music she says it comes from some teen masses she has attended. Is this allowed?
 
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Michael:
A question for some of the experts: At my church the music director has been changing the music of the Gloria and Holy Holy Holy to more upbeat music she says it comes from some teen masses she has attended. Is this allowed?
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Without knowing exactly which version of music she is using it is hard to know whether the variation she is using has been approved.

Specifics to the question you are having. Here is the section that deals with the Gloria and Kyrie.
  1. Then the priest invites those present to take part in the Act of Penitence, which, after a brief pause for silence, the entire community carries out through a formula of general confession. The rite concludes with the priest’s absolution, which, however, lacks the efficacy of the Sacrament of Penance.
On Sundays, especially in the Season of Easter, in place of the customary Act of Penitence, from time to time the blessing and sprinkling of water to recall Baptism may take place.56

The Kyrie Eleison
  1. After the Act of Penitence, the Kyrie is always begun, unless it has already been included as part of the Act of Penitence. Since it is a chant by which the faithful acclaim the Lord and implore his mercy, it is ordinarily done by all, that is, by the people and with the choir or cantor having a part in it.
As a rule, each acclamation is sung or said twice, though it may be repeated several times, by reason of the character of the various languages, as well as of the artistry of the music or of other circumstances. When the Kyrie is sung as a part of the Act of Penitence, a trope may precede each acclamation.
*
The* Gloria

The Gloria is a very ancient and venerable hymn in which the Church, gathered together in the Holy Spirit, glorifies and entreats God the Father and the Lamb. The text of this hymn may not be replaced by any other text. The Gloria is intoned by the priest or, if appropriate, by a cantor or by the choir; but it is sung either by everyone together, or by the people alternately with the choir, or by the choir alone. If not sung, it is to be recited either by all together or by two parts of the congregation responding one to the other.

It is sung or said on Sundays outside the Seasons of Advent and Lent, on solemnities and feasts, and at special celebrations of a more solemn character.
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There are comments about not changing the words, but nothing about the notes, and the speed (although solemn is mentioned.)

You need to find out whether the arrangement that she is used has been approved or not. Here is the appropriate section that refers to this.
Code: 
 Bearing in mind the important place that singing has in a celebration as a necessary or integral part of the Liturgy,152 all musical settings of the texts for the people's responses and acclamations in the Order of Mass and for special rites that occur in the course of the liturgical year must be submitted to the Secretariat for the Liturgy of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops for review and approval prior to publication.
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Link
 
Thanks for you help. Even though RCIA is over I still have monthly meetings with my priest where we ask questions and study topics that I have found while doing my research. I will bring this up to him.
 
“You mentioned in an earlier posting that the priest had left out the Creed. While visiting family in another part of the state the same thing happened while my wife and I were attending Sunday Mass at one of the local parishes. I asked the priest why he had left out the Creed and he said he felt it was a waste of time.I asked him what his Bishop said about it and he replied, “…he was pissed but he’ll get over it”. He turned, waved at a parishioner and walked away. What incredible arrogance.”

And I agree.
All of you, if you want to end Liturgical Abuse, you can end it in a heart beat. Just stop putting those little green pieces of paper in the collection basket each week and see how fast it stops. Actions speak louder than words.
 
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Crusader:
What are the worst liturgical abuses you have been witness to?

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The worst I have witnessed… The cantor, after receiving holy communion (in the hand), walked over to the lectern and placed the host on the lectern and then announced the hymn… Afterwards consumed the host.
 
Chris in Mich http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_105718”, true);
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http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Worst Liturgical Abuses?
During a mass a few years back in Detroit a Priest was wearing a vestment with a hockey team insignia on it, and had a neighbor hold up the score of the game in the back of the church, whenever the score would change it would be read aloud by the Priest. The Priest did less then apologize for his actions, you can see a pic and read about it hear sportsbybrooks.com/wingandaprayer.html

:tsktsk: In regards to this priest shame on him for making a mockery out of the Mass and even worse chasing Mother Teresa’s nuns and there soup kitchen down to Mexican Village. I knew this priest when he was in Waterford and I will pray hard for him now!

:tsktsk:Worst and newest abuse that I have heard is Instead of saying Lord I am not worthy to receive you there is a parish that says Lord we are ready to receive you.
Of course the horseshoe around the altar with everyone taking their own communion.
The organist who controls the Mass and of course always needs that applause.
The priest who uses his own words for the consecration
The nuns who give sermons and change the language throughout the Mass by adding she/he or changing words in the Our Father
 
Thank God that I have not witness any of those “clown” masses nor omission of the Creed etc. However, I did attend a mass where the priest asked if there were any Lutherans in the congregation. Nobody raised their hand. He asked if there were any former Lutherans. One gentleman stood up. The priest congratulated him and told him he should be very, very proud because that particular Sunday happened to be Reformation Sunday. :eek: ???. During the mass, he consecrated a pitcher of wine, then a young boy, in faded jeans and red wrinkled t-shirt went up and started pouring the consecrated wine into glasses and spilling the Precious Blood all over the altar. The priest never even batted an eye. The young boy then proceeded to “give” communion to the priest. Again I say :eek: . During the commuion, the choir was singing some secular song that said in part “the greatest love there is, is love of yourself” Again, and again :eek: and by this time a :mad: .

Thank God I belong to an AU parish where we have incense every Sunday at three masses, one of which is said in Latin. We have an altar rail, people kneel to receive communion by intinction, do not have EMHC’s because both priests and a deacon will distribute communion, have three great choirs, (one a childrens choir) and sing old traditional songs. We don’t use guitars. Instead we have a great organist and choir-master. We have a large number of boys that volunteer to be Altar Servers. Some as young as six all the way up to high-school and college age. Some older men also serve. The priests will do exactly what is called for in the rubrics. Of course being a AU parish, mass is celebrated a little different.
 
At least half of these supposed “abuses” are nothing more than personal grievances and bellyaching about things that are not classifiable as abusive at all. Frankly, the word “abuse” is so overused on this website that it gets nauseating.
 
Well you did pique my curiosity and so I waded through all 10 pages of this thread - following are the only Valid Liturgical Abuses I found.

Some others may have been but circumstances might dictate otherwise.
Lay person giving homily

Nontraditional vestment colors during advent

Self communicating

Potentially the overuse of EMHC’s

Washing women’s feet on Holy Thursday

Priest leaving altar during sign of peace (not at a special occasion)

Routinely, married couples offer each other the Chalice and give each other the Hosts after receiving from the priest

Priest receives communion LAST with the rest of the EMs in the sanctuary

Priest sitting while EMHCs distribute communion.

Priest skips the washing of the hands

Wrong matter.

Questionable vessels.

A few of them may have been mentioned more than once.

Perhaps it would be a good exercise if anyone who posts a liturgical abuse, looks it up in the GIRM or Redemptionis Sacramentum and quotes the instruction governing the abuse before posting.
 
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