Are you actually trying to excuse your husband’s abusive behaviour? A pregnancy surprise or not, first, fourth or tenth is not a reason to leave his wife. He is abusing you by doing this.
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S
sdeco
Guest
I am very sorry for your loss.
But I can’t control the way I feel. I am speaking only about me and my situation.
J
jilly4ski
Guest
:ehh: A miscarriage is the death of your child, it is the same things. I don’t see how you can see it any differently. Just because you haven’t seen the child. I will excuse feelings of being scared, worried, even anger and frustration. But wishing for the death of your child is not a feeling, that is a conscious thought.
M
mommamaree
Guest
Sdeco,
But WHY are they surprises? It was very clear in sex education, biology classes, NFP literature that sex begets babies. Any birth regulation method, whether moral or immoral, only greatly reduces your chances of conceiving in any given cycle. We are always cautioned by every expert, by every pamphlet, that the only 100% foolproof method for avoiding conception is complete abstinence. Society acts rather delusional about that reality right now, especially with abortion being an easy option to avoid responsibility. But Christians must stand apart from our culture and insist on absolute sanity and we must act responsibly.
On top of that, we need to recognize what marriage is for. Society says it is for sexual and emotional fulfillment. That is bunk. Marriage is for the begetting and proper rearing of children and for getting each other to heaven. Sexual relations are FOR procreation and unifying the spouses.
Our culture tries desperately to make us forget all of this, to brainwash us into believing we are in control. Then life catches us by surprise because life does not submit to our delusions, it follows God’s plan. The only happiness we are guaranteed in this life is in joyful surrender to God’s will for us. We are meant for eternal happiness with Him in heaven.
Holy Matrimony (literally means “to make a mother”) is one sacrament our Lord has given us to help us get to heaven. It is not just an agreement between two humans for mutual fulfillment of desires.
Hold on to these truths, sdeco. Don’t let this trial shake your faith. Cling to God and trust in Him. Pray for your husband and your family. Get spiritual counsel from your priest, and seek help from a Christian counselor who will help you decide how to address the treatment you are receiving at the hands of your husband. If your descriptions here are accurate of a long pattern behavior, rather than your husband just poorly handling a crisis, then that is abuse, and you need help.
From my own experience, when I became pregnant with my third child, my husband suspected me of infidelity. We were not Catholic yet, and had used condoms, so he had somehow thought a pregnancy could have had nothing to do with him. I was crushed and horrified. A few weeks after that, I lost the baby. I was heartbroken, because I felt that the baby knew he was not loved and so he died. I began an earnest search for the truth, and the next year, I entered the Catholic Church. My husband converted with me and since then we have had two more babies born and one more saint in heaven (my hope). I have had a total of 3surprise pregnancies and 6 total pregnancies over 8 years. But it turns out that the surprise pregnancies were the impetus for the most wonderful changes for our family. God keeps telling me to let go and trust in Him. The Lord wants to richly reward us but He needs us to trust Him.
God bless you, sdeco. I will keep praying for you.
But WHY are they surprises? It was very clear in sex education, biology classes, NFP literature that sex begets babies. Any birth regulation method, whether moral or immoral, only greatly reduces your chances of conceiving in any given cycle. We are always cautioned by every expert, by every pamphlet, that the only 100% foolproof method for avoiding conception is complete abstinence. Society acts rather delusional about that reality right now, especially with abortion being an easy option to avoid responsibility. But Christians must stand apart from our culture and insist on absolute sanity and we must act responsibly.
On top of that, we need to recognize what marriage is for. Society says it is for sexual and emotional fulfillment. That is bunk. Marriage is for the begetting and proper rearing of children and for getting each other to heaven. Sexual relations are FOR procreation and unifying the spouses.
Our culture tries desperately to make us forget all of this, to brainwash us into believing we are in control. Then life catches us by surprise because life does not submit to our delusions, it follows God’s plan. The only happiness we are guaranteed in this life is in joyful surrender to God’s will for us. We are meant for eternal happiness with Him in heaven.
Holy Matrimony (literally means “to make a mother”) is one sacrament our Lord has given us to help us get to heaven. It is not just an agreement between two humans for mutual fulfillment of desires.
Hold on to these truths, sdeco. Don’t let this trial shake your faith. Cling to God and trust in Him. Pray for your husband and your family. Get spiritual counsel from your priest, and seek help from a Christian counselor who will help you decide how to address the treatment you are receiving at the hands of your husband. If your descriptions here are accurate of a long pattern behavior, rather than your husband just poorly handling a crisis, then that is abuse, and you need help.
From my own experience, when I became pregnant with my third child, my husband suspected me of infidelity. We were not Catholic yet, and had used condoms, so he had somehow thought a pregnancy could have had nothing to do with him. I was crushed and horrified. A few weeks after that, I lost the baby. I was heartbroken, because I felt that the baby knew he was not loved and so he died. I began an earnest search for the truth, and the next year, I entered the Catholic Church. My husband converted with me and since then we have had two more babies born and one more saint in heaven (my hope). I have had a total of 3surprise pregnancies and 6 total pregnancies over 8 years. But it turns out that the surprise pregnancies were the impetus for the most wonderful changes for our family. God keeps telling me to let go and trust in Him. The Lord wants to richly reward us but He needs us to trust Him.
God bless you, sdeco. I will keep praying for you.
S
sdeco
Guest
Thank you, mommamamaree, for your prayers and for sharing your story.
T
The_Bucket
Guest
While a miscarriage may be easier to deal with than say, watching a toddler get hit by a car and die, it’s still the same thing. In both cases a human being has died. Then again, maybe it’s not easier to deal with. I’ve never had to deal with one personally.
My mother did and I’ll tell you that while I’m sure she was able to move on better than had one of her other six kids been killed after they were born, she still thinks about the one that she lost. I don’t really think about that baby but that’s probably because I was either four or five when he or she died. Plus my parents conceived again very soon after he or she was lost so there was nothing but excitement for me at that point.
I’m doing my darndest to chalk all of this up to fear. I’m sure it’s palpable in your life. Being told to give a child up for adoption and your husband threatening to leave makes you say and feel all kinds of crazy things. I’m pretty confident in saying that you don’t really believe these things. You can’t help how you feel. That’s quite true. Because what you are feeling is intense fear caused by a man who is psychologically abusing you.
If you could step back from the situation (which you can’t, I understand that) you’d realize how insane your husband is being. He had sex with you. You conceived a child. And he’s mad about that to the point of threatening to leave you and demanding you give the kid up for adoption. Can you see for even one second how totally nuts that is?
This isn’t a new boyfriend. This isn’t a one-night stand. This is your husband. This is your husband being mad (not overwhelmed, but MAD) about a child he helped create.
Seriously, how in the hell is this “your fault”? How the hell is he justified in leaving you? How could your brother say that? It’s absolutely ludicrous.
Read this sentence. Because this is what your husband is telling people:
“My wife wouldn’t stop getting pregnant by me, so I kicked her to the curb.”
Not “my wife got pregnant with another man’s kid” or “my wife had multiple affairs.”
He’s saying that you are somehow doing him wrong because his having sex with you is resulting in children. Either he really needs a biology lesson or he’s crazy.
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sdeco
Guest
He knows how biology works. He is mad because I kept insisting on NFP and because I didn’t get my tubes tied last time when I had the chance (they asked me before my c-section).
R
Rico_S
Guest
sdeco is obviously upset, angry and frustrated. She is dealing with a situation that feels hopeless to her right now. Do you remember a time when you felt hopeless? I do. I did not see things clearly…I did not see things for what they were.
Advice has been offered. I would suggest that CAF posters spend their energy praying for this family and not picking out what is wrong with her thinking or her husbands thinking every time she posts something. Even if you think her view is off. Even if you think her husband is off. Don’t go off on her. Don’t turn your back and “hrumphh.” Don’t wag your finger at her. Remind yourself from where she is coming. Pray for her. Offer love. And perhaps, as it has happened for me, she will see things more clearly after the dust has settled.
It astonishes me how little capacity so many CAF posters have to meet people where they are. It is as though that they believe that they carry light of truth and it is their duty to shine it into the eyes of everyone…with no consideration for how dark a place they may be coming from.
Advice has been offered. I would suggest that CAF posters spend their energy praying for this family and not picking out what is wrong with her thinking or her husbands thinking every time she posts something. Even if you think her view is off. Even if you think her husband is off. Don’t go off on her. Don’t turn your back and “hrumphh.” Don’t wag your finger at her. Remind yourself from where she is coming. Pray for her. Offer love. And perhaps, as it has happened for me, she will see things more clearly after the dust has settled.
It astonishes me how little capacity so many CAF posters have to meet people where they are. It is as though that they believe that they carry light of truth and it is their duty to shine it into the eyes of everyone…with no consideration for how dark a place they may be coming from.
J
jilly4ski
Guest
The point is, he knew you did not get it done (And pregnancy is the worst time to decide to get your tubes tied). He did nothing about it and continued to have sex with you. This is as much his fault as it is yours. It is course nobody’s “fault” this is a baby. Loved by God, and God has a plan for him or her.
T
The_Bucket
Guest
A great, but sad story that does have a good ending. But I wanted to single this part out. This is what society has come to today. Not only are we disconnected from what sexuality is all about, but we become suspicious of those we love the most when our attempts at control are foiled by God’s natural design.
It’s sick. It’s just sick.
I’m not going to say that letting go and letting God be in control is easy. It most certainly is not. Not for anyone. And certainly not for me. It’s two steps forward, one step back with that process in my life. Because every time I let go I feel better… and when I feel better I try to assume control again.
Basically I think “well I let God handle this and this… but this one I can do on my own.” WRONG ANSWER. To steal a phrase from poker and from a friend, you’ve got to be “all in” for God. Pushing those chips to the center of the table is a terrifying thing because who knows what hand God wants to deal you? Maybe it will lead to suffering. Maybe it will lead to trial. I don’t know.
So while I’m OK with turning over my sinful struggles, I want to keep some stuff in reserve. I want to keep some chips just for me. I don’t want to give all of my life to God. That would be “irresponsible,” right?
This is not to say I’m a Christian Scientist or something like that. This is not the same thing. Using modern medicine is great. Just not for contraceptive purposes.
Artificial contraception is clearly wrong and mommamaree’s story is a great example of why it’s such an evil. It doesn’t just throw up barriers between the couple and God, it throws up barriers between the two that should be one flesh. And when nature wins and man’s best efforts to thwart nature fail, people become angry. They get angry at God and they get angry at their spouses/partners.
The poster in the course of this thread has slowly revealed the root cause of the problem, and the onus is now on her to admit it. It isn’t about the pregnancies, or even the issue of contraception. It opened the discussion but it showed what was really happening. All the signs point to a threatening, controlling husband unwilling to support his wife. The threat to leave her was the key fact that showed exactly the underlying issue. No husband worth his salt even threatens to leave his wife over a pregnancy, no matter what the circumstances.
The majority of us initially just gave the Church’s teaching when it was just a question of contraception. Since then, it has moved to emotional abuse, and the scary thing is, she shows signs of believing him. This is beyond my paygrade. So beyond reinforcing the information of the hotline and exhorting the lady to wake up and smell the roses, so to speak and first and admit to herself that her husband is not behaving as a husband should, I will also need to switch to prayer mode and exit this thread, as emotional marital abuse is not something I’m qualified to advise on.
OP: you must take care of yourself. Don’t let anyone bully you around.
T
The_Bucket
Guest
I can only imagine what he would say if he went and got a vasectomy and you got pregnant anyway (which does happen by the way). You’d probably end up in mommamaree’s position.
Again, I’m never going to argue that the Church’s teaching is easy. It is not. It is extremely difficult. But her teaching on sexuality simply mirrors her teaching elsewhere. We are called to be unselfish in every aspect of our lives. With our time, with our treasure, with our sexuality.
Failing to share the gifts God has given us is sinful. God understands that we will fall down constantly and that’s why we have the gift of Reconciliation.
The only answer in this situation is that you both must surrender fully to God’s will. I don’t mean that you just have a million kids and whatnot, but you have to surrender to His will. That’s the only way to get through life sane.
M
mommamaree
Guest
One more thought…
A sane husband would have a sense of pride and joy and romance at the thought of (excuse the coarse language, but it is a true turn of phrase) “getting his woman knocked up”. He accomplished a wonderful thing with his lovely wife. My own husband, after our conversion and reeducation on the reality of the proper use of our sexuality, becomes the most amorous and affectionate and loving during my fertile times, and when we make use of infertile times during periods where we need to avoid a pregnancy, we still have that touch of romantic “what if…?”.
That is sanity. For a husband to acknowledge that sexual intercourse is meant to be a complete gift of self, and each and every act of intercourse carries with it the potential for procreation. And to realize just how exciting that opportunity is, even if the couple does not intend to invite that purposefully on any given cycle.
I wish my husband and Bucket and Soren could sit down with your husband and talk some sense into him. He is rejecting some pretty amazing blessings that God is generously giving him. Is there someone in your parish, a married deacon perhaps, who can reason with him?
A sane husband would have a sense of pride and joy and romance at the thought of (excuse the coarse language, but it is a true turn of phrase) “getting his woman knocked up”. He accomplished a wonderful thing with his lovely wife. My own husband, after our conversion and reeducation on the reality of the proper use of our sexuality, becomes the most amorous and affectionate and loving during my fertile times, and when we make use of infertile times during periods where we need to avoid a pregnancy, we still have that touch of romantic “what if…?”.
That is sanity. For a husband to acknowledge that sexual intercourse is meant to be a complete gift of self, and each and every act of intercourse carries with it the potential for procreation. And to realize just how exciting that opportunity is, even if the couple does not intend to invite that purposefully on any given cycle.
I wish my husband and Bucket and Soren could sit down with your husband and talk some sense into him. He is rejecting some pretty amazing blessings that God is generously giving him. Is there someone in your parish, a married deacon perhaps, who can reason with him?
T
The_Bucket
Guest
I don’t really want to sit down with this guy. At least not in his current mindset. I’d probably deck him.
Go talk to some people with some real problems dude. People who have lost children. People who are infertile. People who have children or spouses with terminal illnesses. People who throw their families away because of addiction like I nearly did.
Hell, go talk to people who are so dirt poor that another child may really lead to them being unable to feed or clothe or shelter themselves. Are you in that position? Well you’ve got an Internet connection so probably not.
I understand that times are tough and I’m not a wealthy person myself. I make just above the median income. I know that I’m extremely fortunate to be in a position where my wife doesn’t have to work for us to be able to eat, but her not working is definitely a financial strain. But we strain because we feel like we must. We’re lucky to have supportive family who do really great things for us like pay for our son’s Catholic preschool program (which we can’t afford and which we actually got financial aid for even though you’re technically not supposed to be able to get financial aid for preschool) or his music lessons.
We are not wealthy by any means. We are also nevertheless very blessed.
And OP you too are blessed with a mother-in-law who watches your kids so you can help support them. That’s great! My in-laws live ten hours away. So do my parents. My nearest family member is my sister who lives about three hours away. We are out here on an island. But we nevertheless are blessed to get their moral, spiritual and occasional bit of financial support.
Your husband should be counting his blessings. I say again that I can understand feeling overwhelmed. I can even understand that feeling to not abating after a few days or weeks. But never anger. Never, ever anger.
Go talk to some people with some real problems dude. People who have lost children. People who are infertile. People who have children or spouses with terminal illnesses. People who throw their families away because of addiction like I nearly did.
Hell, go talk to people who are so dirt poor that another child may really lead to them being unable to feed or clothe or shelter themselves. Are you in that position? Well you’ve got an Internet connection so probably not.
I understand that times are tough and I’m not a wealthy person myself. I make just above the median income. I know that I’m extremely fortunate to be in a position where my wife doesn’t have to work for us to be able to eat, but her not working is definitely a financial strain. But we strain because we feel like we must. We’re lucky to have supportive family who do really great things for us like pay for our son’s Catholic preschool program (which we can’t afford and which we actually got financial aid for even though you’re technically not supposed to be able to get financial aid for preschool) or his music lessons.
We are not wealthy by any means. We are also nevertheless very blessed.
And OP you too are blessed with a mother-in-law who watches your kids so you can help support them. That’s great! My in-laws live ten hours away. So do my parents. My nearest family member is my sister who lives about three hours away. We are out here on an island. But we nevertheless are blessed to get their moral, spiritual and occasional bit of financial support.
Your husband should be counting his blessings. I say again that I can understand feeling overwhelmed. I can even understand that feeling to not abating after a few days or weeks. But never anger. Never, ever anger.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
I felt the same way. I felt as if the baby somehow understood that I was upset and he died. I had another miscarriage right after that one. I was heartbroken, I still am 5 years after the fact.
But the pain I have inside over the first is a different type of pain. I rejected my child, even if it was just a few moments. He died.
I know logically he probably wasn’t formed enough to hear me or to process my words. But I do believe somehow his little soul felt rejected by me, his mother. I know I didn’t do anything directly to harm him…but there is that pain.
Sdeco, you are this baby’s mom. You haven’t found a way to manage your PCOS. You haven’t been able to get a doctor to help you navigate your cycle. You’ve been trying to do the right thing by sticking with NFP.
Try to remain calm, try to pray to God for acceptance, for guidance. I prayed for you last night. I’ll continue to pray.
W
waanju
Guest
It seems like you think NFP wouldn’t work for you (and thus you’re resorting to sterilization) because you got pregnant when it was “impossible”. It also seems like you think it was “impossible” because your period hadn’t returned.
If both of those things are true, I have some news that may be a relief to you:
It is totally withing the realm of normal and possible to get pregnant before your period returns. Heck, it’s possible for a teenager to get pregnant before she even has her first period! Ovulation precedes menstruation. So, you were on your first cycle (your period was going to come in a week or two) and you released the first egg (since your period ended from the meds) The odds of conception are slim from any one time having sex, but you got lucky, right on that very first egg! So, your imminent first returning period did not occur.
See, all very within the realm of normal and possible= NFP is an option.
If both of those things are true, I have some news that may be a relief to you:
It is totally withing the realm of normal and possible to get pregnant before your period returns. Heck, it’s possible for a teenager to get pregnant before she even has her first period! Ovulation precedes menstruation. So, you were on your first cycle (your period was going to come in a week or two) and you released the first egg (since your period ended from the meds) The odds of conception are slim from any one time having sex, but you got lucky, right on that very first egg! So, your imminent first returning period did not occur.
See, all very within the realm of normal and possible= NFP is an option.
B
Brendan_64
Guest
Sdeco, you really do need help, that much is obvious, and you know it.
This forum isn’t really the place where you will get the help you need. You need professional help from someone who is trained to deal with the very serious issues you face.
A husband who threatens his wife with leaving her and their children (even threatening to put a child up for adoption) unless she agrees to something that she not only wants to do, but believes is morally wrong (gravely so) is emotionally abusing her. He is controlling you.
You do NOT have to agree to something you do not wish to do, especially if you feel it is morally wrong. Nobody, not even your husband, has the right to make you do so. It is your life, you are entitled to make your own decisions on it.
Please seek help, both emotionally and spiritually, and for your own safety (and that of your children). Speak to a priest in the first instance (that is easily arranged and free) and tell him EVERYTHING. Speak to your doctor (for the sake of your own mental health) and then contact an agency that deals with women who are abused (because that is what your husband is doing to you on an emotional level).
Sadly all we can do on this forum is give you our own (most often flawed) opinions on what we think the teachings of the Church are. We are just ordinary members of the public and we aren’t qualified to give you the help you need.
I will pray for you.
St Jude is a very good Saint that you could pray to in this desperate situations of yours. Pray to him he really does help. He has helped me when I have been at my lowest ebb and feeling desperate ourcatholicprayers.com/prayer-to-st-jude.html
BUT PLEASE SEEK HELP FOR THIS. This isn’t something that you will be able to work through without professional help. At the very least go and see your priest (do not tell your husband you are doing this, just make an appointment with the Parish Priest and go). Then see your GP, then seek help from an agency that deals with women in potentially abusive relationships (because that is what it sounds like you are in). Look after yourself and your children.
God bless,
Brendan
This forum isn’t really the place where you will get the help you need. You need professional help from someone who is trained to deal with the very serious issues you face.
A husband who threatens his wife with leaving her and their children (even threatening to put a child up for adoption) unless she agrees to something that she not only wants to do, but believes is morally wrong (gravely so) is emotionally abusing her. He is controlling you.
You do NOT have to agree to something you do not wish to do, especially if you feel it is morally wrong. Nobody, not even your husband, has the right to make you do so. It is your life, you are entitled to make your own decisions on it.
Please seek help, both emotionally and spiritually, and for your own safety (and that of your children). Speak to a priest in the first instance (that is easily arranged and free) and tell him EVERYTHING. Speak to your doctor (for the sake of your own mental health) and then contact an agency that deals with women who are abused (because that is what your husband is doing to you on an emotional level).
Sadly all we can do on this forum is give you our own (most often flawed) opinions on what we think the teachings of the Church are. We are just ordinary members of the public and we aren’t qualified to give you the help you need.
I will pray for you.
St Jude is a very good Saint that you could pray to in this desperate situations of yours. Pray to him he really does help. He has helped me when I have been at my lowest ebb and feeling desperate ourcatholicprayers.com/prayer-to-st-jude.html
BUT PLEASE SEEK HELP FOR THIS. This isn’t something that you will be able to work through without professional help. At the very least go and see your priest (do not tell your husband you are doing this, just make an appointment with the Parish Priest and go). Then see your GP, then seek help from an agency that deals with women in potentially abusive relationships (because that is what it sounds like you are in). Look after yourself and your children.
God bless,
Brendan
C
cheezey
Guest
Oh, Dear God in Heaven, it IS a death of a child, it isn’t the same, it can be and is WORSE.
There is no one to hold and say goodbye to, for one thing. Women, and men, who endure miscarriage too often do not get the counselling needed because not enough people realize it IS a death, it IS a loss, it is NOT the same. We are just left standing and stunned to fend for ourselves, taking YEARS to grieve. 12 years and running…
I am glad you are pro life against abortion.
I truly feel for your situation; I am praying because I don’t know what to say otherwise.
A
aspirant
Guest
I think this is worth saying again, in case anyone needs it:
Domestic violence (or intimate partner violence) is a pattern of abusive behavior when one person chooses to control the relationship through force, fear, pressure, or intimidation. Abusive behavior can be physical, verbal, emotional, sexual, or economic. Abusers use fear, guilt, shame, and intimidation to wear the other person down and keep that person under his or her thumb. Sometimes it’s subtle, and sometimes it’s extreme. Without help, abusive behavior usually gets worse.
The aim of emotional abuse is to chip away at a person’s feelings of self-worth and independence. The victim of emotional abuse may feel that there is no way out of the relationship or that without the abusive partner one has nothing (e.g. inadequate resources and/or personal support). Emotional abuse includes verbal abuse such as yelling, blaming, and shaming. Intimidation and controlling behavior also fall under emotional abuse. Emotional or psychological abusers often throw in threats of physical violence or other repercussions if they don’t get what they want.
If any of this sounds familiar, as if it might describe your current relationship, please consider calling 800-799-SAFE (7233) or visit the National Domestic Violence Hotline website. Some information is available here regarding what to expect when you call.
Regardless whether a person is ready to leave an abusive relationship, it is a good idea to begin devising a clear but flexible safety plan. This can be begun immediately, regardless whether it seems necessary at the moment, and the National Domestic Violence Hotline can help. A person does not need to be ready to leave a relationship in order to contact a violence hotline or local shelter for support, safety planning, and other services.
T
TheRealJuliane
Guest
I am so sorry. Your husband is a …well… I will try not to get my post removed by saying what I think. If my husband had dared to say he wanted to adopt out one of our children, I would have kicked him out of the house before the words had finished leaving his mouth. Oh my gosh what a horrible thing to say. You will be in my prayers.
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