Would it be better for me to get sterilized, or my husband?

[The_Bucket]

sdeco, again I stress that the problems you have right now extend far beyond “merely” your husband wanting a vasectomy. The biggest issue is the bullying, the anger, the threats. You are quite right to say that you cannot control him and your objections have been made clear. At a certain point what else can you do short of physically stopping him? Probably not anything.

However… why would you want to be around this guy the way that he is right now? You’re concerned about what might happen if he leaves. Well who’s the one leveling those threats? You? No. He is. And he’s threatening you because of surprise pregnancies… that he helped create! I hope you can comprehend what utter lunacy that is.

Your issue is not NFP. Your issue is not the Church’s teaching. Your issue is that your husband is being a bully and emotionally and spiritually manipulative. He’s basically shoving you into a corner and making you choose between the Church and him.

A loving man does not do that. Even one that does not agree with the teaching the Church has. If he were a decent but misguided secular man, he would have simply gone off and gotten the sterilization done and said “if it’s a sin, it’s on me. But I don’t think it’s a sin. I really don’t.” He wouldn’t have persisted in demanding you use birth control and he would never have threatened you with abandonment.

 

[The_Bucket]

I just feel like sdeco is bearing the burden of condemnation here for something she is not guilty of.

I would hope the only thing anyone would caution her about is feeling relieved that he “put the sin on himself instead of her.” That’s really it. A sense of relief if and when he gets sterilized that the long fight is over would actually be fine. Because she’s not happy that he’s sterilized, she’s happy that she’s not taking abuse anymore.

Unfortunately, I really doubt sterilization is going to resolve the discord here. One does not become a lunatic like this unless there are much deeper issues involved than a disagreement over birth control.

And I say that as a reforming lunatic myself.

 

[KellyPalmer]

She has not “done nothing” as you say. She has practiced NFP for years, against the wishes of her husband. She has refused sterilization on at least one occasion. She has refused to use contraceptives. She has told her husband why. She has mentioned here the fallout from such disagreements with her husband. He talked about sterilization before, and she has successfully held him off for quite some time. She talked to a priest about this issue in her last pregnancy, which was only 2years ago. And at that time, rather than counsel her, the priest offered to take her children and give them away! No wonder she is a bit shy about opening herself up to a priest again. I only wish she could talk to our pastor. He is so gracious and empathetic and wise. OP, are there any priests at your parish now that are like that? I will pray for you on that one too.
I am not sure what she is expected to do here. Level threats of her own at the husband? What good would that do? Physically restrain him so he cannot go to his surgery? Not likely to work. her husband knows it is wrong and he has witnessed her staying true to the teachings of the Church for years. What else is possible to be done?
If sdeco’s husband would agree to consult a priest, that would be wonderful. But if he refuses, what can be done?
I just feel like sdeco is bearing the burden of condemnation here for something she is not guilty of. It is not going to help her in this situation and it is not charitable. To answer her initial question, neither should get sterilized. But if her husband insists on sterilization, despite her objections and gainst Church teachings, she is not guilty for his sin.

I disagree with this summary of events, to some degree. Either way, the issue is different right now than it was in the past. Every step of the way, the issue has changed to some degree. She is in a new situation today, one that needs to be addressed and she’s not doing it. She recognizes it’s something that needs to be addressed or she would not have posted here. Yet the final decision appears to be doing nothing RIGHT NOW (not in the past) and just silently letting it happen. Can you seriously not see how that is not the same thing as “doing all I can”??? She said she saw a Priest earlier b/c her husband was upset about their third surprise pregnancy and b/c he wanted to use birth control. That is NOT the same situation as demanding to that one of them be sterilized now, or else. The two situations are related, but not the same. The best she can say is that she made an effort for a similar situation in the past and that she’s been through a lot but that is NOT even close to saying she’s done all she can to stop the new issue that is going on now with the imminent sterilization. Her own bitterness over her view of a poor conversation with the Priest years ago is more important to her than taking even one step now with this imminent sterilization??? Someone needs to say that to her, so I did! She may be being condemned by others, I don’t know. I’m not condemning her. I commend that she has stood her ground so long but she doesn’t have to do this alone. There is a lot that she can still do. Do you not see how she has dismissed many of the suggestions here? She’s already convinced herself that nothing will work. That’s not doing all one can do especially when we are talking about the risking of salvation for the other half of herself.

 

[sdeco]

She has not “done nothing” as you say. She has practiced NFP for years, against the wishes of her husband. She has refused sterilization on at least one occasion. She has refused to use contraceptives. She has told her husband why. She has mentioned here the fallout from such disagreements with her husband. He talked about sterilization before, and she has successfully held him off for quite some time. She talked to a priest about this issue in her last pregnancy, which was only 2years ago. And at that time, rather than counsel her, the priest offered to take her children and give them away! No wonder she is a bit shy about opening herself up to a priest again. I only wish she could talk to our pastor. He is so gracious and empathetic and wise. OP, are there any priests at your parish now that are like that? I will pray for you on that one too.
I am not sure what she is expected to do here. Level threats of her own at the husband? What good would that do? Physically restrain him so he cannot go to his surgery? Not likely to work. her husband knows it is wrong and he has witnessed her staying true to the teachings of the Church for years. What else is possible to be done?
If sdeco’s husband would agree to consult a priest, that would be wonderful. But if he refuses, what can be done?
I just feel like sdeco is bearing the burden of condemnation here for something she is not guilty of. It is not going to help her in this situation and it is not charitable. To answer her initial question, neither should get sterilized. But if her husband insists on sterilization, despite her objections and gainst Church teachings, she is not guilty for his sin.

Thank you! You understand.

I would hope the only thing anyone would caution her about is feeling relieved that he “put the sin on himself instead of her.” That’s really it. A sense of relief if and when he gets sterilized that the long fight is over would actually be fine. Because she’s not happy that he’s sterilized, she’s happy that she’s not taking abuse anymore.

I am not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that it would be wrong for me to feel relieved when he gets sterilized?

Also, I think it would be much easier to go to counseling when the kids are a little older and the craziness of pregnancy and postpartum has died down (especially if my husband gets sterilized and I know there won’t be any more babies.) Furthermore, the cost of counseling is one of the things holding me back, but that wouldn’t be quite as much of an issue if i knew there would be no more babies coming.

 

[KellyPalmer]

I would hope the only thing anyone would caution her about is feeling relieved that he “put the sin on himself instead of her.” That’s really it. A sense of relief if and when he gets sterilized that the long fight is over would actually be fine. Because she’s not happy that he’s sterilized, she’s happy that she’s not taking abuse anymore.

Unfortunately, I really doubt sterilization is going to resolve the discord here. One does not become a lunatic like this unless there are much deeper issues involved than a disagreement over birth control.

And I say that as a reforming lunatic myself.

Wise words.

 

[mommamaree]

I disagree with this summary of events, to some degree. Either way, the issue is different right now than it was in the past. Every step of the way, the issue has changed to some degree. She is in a new situation today, one that needs to be addressed and she’s not doing it. She recognizes it’s something that needs to be addressed or she would not have posted here. Yet the final decision appears to be doing nothing RIGHT NOW (not in the past) and just silently letting it happen. Can you seriously not see how that is not the same thing as “doing all I can”??? She said she saw a Priest earlier b/c her husband was upset about their third surprise pregnancy and b/c he wanted to use birth control. That is NOT the same situation as demanding to that one of them be sterilized now, or else. The two situations are related, but not the same. The best she can say is that she made an effort for a similar situation in the past and that she’s been through a lot but that is NOT even close to saying she’s done all she can to stop the new issue that is going on now with the imminent sterilization. Her own bitterness over her view of a poor conversation with the Priest years ago is more important to her than taking even one step now with this imminent sterilization??? Someone needs to say that to her, so I did! She may be being condemned by others, I don’t know. I’m not condemning her. I commend that she has stood her ground so long but she doesn’t have to do this alone. There is a lot that she can still do. Do you not see how she has dismissed many of the suggestions here? She’s already convinced herself that nothing will work. That’s not doing all one can do especially when we are talking about the risking of salvation for the other half of herself.

My objection was to saying she had “done almost nothing”. That was neither true nor fair. Let us not forget the verbal abuse in the form of manipulation and threats that she has endured. I, for one, am hoping for her husband’s conversion of heart, and for their marriage to be transformed. IMHO, the time for arguing has past. She definitely needs priestly counsel. But I think prayer is the only path forward in this situation. And I still encourage the OP to get personal counseling, to deal with her anxiety and the emotional and spiritual wounds of her husband’s behavior.

 

[KellyPalmer]

My objection was to saying she had “done almost nothing”. That was neither true nor fair. Let us not forget the verbal abuse in the form of manipulation and threats that she has endured. I, for one, am hoping for her husband’s conversion of heart, and for their marriage to be transformed. IMHO, the time for arguing has past. She definitely needs priestly counsel. But I think prayer is the only path forward in this situation. And I still encourage the OP to get personal counseling, to deal with her anxiety and the emotional and spiritual wounds of her husband’s behavior.

I was talking about in this current situation. It sounds like she’s done almost nothing. You are talking about things she’s done in the past. I am certainly not suggesting more arguing!!! I’m saying she needs to seek counsel right away. Like I said, I’d be at my Priest’s door so fast! I’d be in marriage counseling, by myself if he wouldn’t go. I’m currently doing MUCH MORE in my own marriage and we don’t have the kind of problems she is dealing with. But tell me what she has done since this new threat of imminent sterilization has come up? Other than posting on the internet to strangers? Yes, she’s been through a lot in the past. has endured a lot of abuse, has held her ground. But there is SO much she can being doing right now vs just going along with it and thinking that’s going to fix anything.

 

[The_Bucket]

I am not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that it would be wrong for me to feel relieved when he gets sterilized?

I’m saying that the only way you’re culpable is if a) you pushed him to get sterilized b) you approve of a decision he made to get sterilized or c) you didn’t push him or approve of it but you’re actually glad about the effects of the sterilization.

A and B are right out. The only thing is C and in that case you’re fine to “feel relieved” that he did it and will stop tearing your family apart because it’s pretty clear that you don’t support sterilization as a rule or even in your own case. You just want him to stop his lunacy.

Also, I think it would be much easier to go to counseling when the kids are a little older and the craziness of pregnancy and postpartum has died down (especially if my husband gets sterilized and I know there won’t be any more babies.) Furthermore, the cost of counseling is one of the things holding me back, but that wouldn’t be quite as much of an issue if i knew there would be no more babies coming.

As others have suggested, counseling can be extremely inexpensive. Catholic Charities provides services on a sliding scale that could result in it being free of charge.

There is no good reason to delay. There are only good reasons to get started now. His problems, and by extension yours, go well beyond a row over birth control. No sane man threatens his wife with abandonment or demands, out of anger, that his own child be given up for adoption.

If this was a case where you were unmarried 16-year-olds then yeah, I can see how giving a child up for adoption would be not only a decent idea but the optimal and most charitable course of action. You are not in that situation.

He is being a lunatic rage monster and I know lunatic rage monsters when I hear about them. I’ve got years of experience as one.

 

[sdeco]

Also, to be fair, the priest I talked to did recommend counseling for us. I didn’t go for a variety of reasons - money, time, husband didn’t want to go, etc. Plus this priest lost a lot of credibility with me with his adoption comments. I had heard that it’s not a sin to have relations with your spouse if they are using birth control over your objections, so after the third child my husband and I used condoms sometimes if I wasn’t sure if I was fertile. (When I got pregnant this time I had no fertility signs whatsoever, though, so we didn’t use a condom). The priest I talked to seemed to think it would still be a sin for me even if my husband was using condoms, which I was almost positive was not church teaching. He seemed more Catholic than the Pope in some ways.

 

[The_Bucket]

I was talking about in this current situation. It sounds like she’s done almost nothing. You are talking about things she’s done in the past. I am certainly not suggesting more arguing!!! I’m saying she needs to seek counsel right away. Like I said, I’d be at my Priest’s door so fast! I’d be in marriage counseling, by myself if he wouldn’t go. I’m currently doing MUCH MORE in my own marriage and we don’t have the kind of problems she is dealing with. But tell me what she has done since this new threat of imminent sterilization has come up? Other than posting on the internet to strangers? Yes, she’s been through a lot in the past. has endured a lot of abuse, has held her ground. But there is SO much she can being doing right now vs just going along with it and thinking that’s going to fix anything.

I’m guessing, just guessing, that she’s more or less paralyzed by fear. I can understand that. I did the same thing to my own wife who never suggested counseling. My father emotionally abused my mother and repeatedly cheated on her. Her response? We moved a few times. That’s it. Eventually they got into counseling but not until I was already an adult.

Why did she not divorce him? Or at least separate and demand more than broken promises? She was afraid to leave because he made all the money and there were a half-dozen of us kids. What was she going to do as a single mom with a half-dozen kids? I don’t know but I do know she’d be better off psychologically had she done SOMETHING about 20 years ago.

 

[russet1]

Go to hell.

I obviously overstepped my bounds and I also didn’t understand correctly the situation. I am sorry. I have nothing left to add about the situation. But this post seems to be out of line on your part. Not only that but I do not want to go to hell. So I try not to be in mortal sin. The place I struggle with this the most is in NFP like issues as well.

 

[KellyPalmer]

I’m guessing, just guessing, that she’s more or less paralyzed by fear. I can understand that. I did the same thing to my own wife who never suggested counseling. My father emotionally abused my mother and repeatedly cheated on her. Her response? We moved a few times. That’s it. Eventually they got into counseling but not until I was already an adult.

Why did she not divorce him? Or at least separate and demand more than broken promises? She was afraid to leave because he made all the money and there were a half-dozen of us kids. What was she going to do as a single mom with a half-dozen kids? I don’t know but I do know she’d be better off psychologically had she done SOMETHING about 20 years ago.

Yes, that makes sense. I’m sure she has plenty of reasons for why she isn’t doing more. My point isn’t to say she’s a terrible person that is being ridiculous. My heart goes out to her…it’s a difficult situation she’s in. I’m just encouraging her to be honest with herself about having done all she can do.

And OP, counseling is difficult with young kids. I have 3 young kids and it’s hard but I make it work some way, some how even if it’s not as often as I want. I see a Nun and a Priest for free. Recently started doing tele-counseling that I have to pay for but at least it’s not my only source of help so I don’t have to rely fully on help that’s totally out of pocket. My husband is also in the military and has a crazy schedule, often gone for days at a time and doesn’t work regular hours. It’s tough but I need to be able to look back and TRULY say that I’ve tried all I could.

 

[The_Bucket]

Also, to be fair, the priest I talked to did recommend counseling for us. I didn’t go for a variety of reasons - money, time, husband didn’t want to go, etc. Plus this priest lost a lot of credibility with me with his adoption comments.

Fair enough about the comment he made. It was either ignorant, mean or flip. In any case it was not wise. But he’s quite right to recommend counseling. And as others have noted, marital counseling does not need to have both parties there.

The priest I talked to seemed to think it would still be a sin for me even if my husband was using condoms, which I was almost positive was not church teaching. He seemed more Catholic than the Pope in some ways.

Well what you’re describing is a weird kind of cooperation here. You objected but you also told him when you were or were not fertile so he could go ahead and commit the sin himself. I don’t know if that constitutes material cooperation with evil. But it’s certainly more than say, a woman taking the pill and her husband saying please don’t do that or a man getting sterilized over his wife’s objection.

 

[White_Tree]

I have a question, and I’m surprised it has not come up yet (though I admit I have only skimmed the thread).

Why are you not trying some form of temporary birth control? Condoms, pills, etc.

This is the 21st Century. There are more forms of artificial birth control than I care to count. Why did you immediately jump to the conclusion that you must sterilize.

You have to think about the magnitude of the sin here.

I know the Catholic Church says don’t use artificial birth control. I agree with them that this has negative spiritual consequences. However, sterilization is a thousand times worse.

What on earth could lead you to conclude that instead of taking a pill, you should mutilate your body, the temple of the Holy Spirit, in some horrible, irreparable way? Do you really think that’s better than using artificial birth control. Be honest.

One of those sins causes permanent damage to the temple of the Holy Spirit, and prevents you from conceiving. The other sin only prevents you from conceiving. Think about what you are doing.

I know this is a Catholic forum, and we’re not supposed to say anything positive about birth control, but consider the gravity of those two actions.

You act like your husband can go get the sterilization and your soul can stay pure. Really? You think God’s going to overlook that? You’re considering letting your husband take the fall for you, and somehow God is going to see that as a holy action on your part? It doesn’t matter whether your husband is a lapsed Catholic or not. You’re in a marriage, and you’re in it together.

I’m sorry if I come off as abrasive or disrespectful. I really don’t mean to be. I’m only posting this because it seems to me like you are jumping to a terrible conclusion, and no one else on this forum seems willing to point that out. There are too many people praising NFP when it’s clear that is not the solution in this situation. Not all sins are created equal. Committing a murder is very different from committing genocide. That’s an extreme example, I know, and I don’t mean to imply that your actions are in any way tantamount to sins like that. I just want to point out that it’s faulty logic to immediately jump to the most extreme and hurtful action you could possibly perform in this situation when there are other far more reasonable things you could try first.

 

[KellyPalmer]

I have a question, and I’m surprised it has not come up yet (though I admit I have only skimmed the thread).

Why are you not trying some form of temporary birth control? Condoms, pills, etc.

This is the 21st Century. There are more forms of artificial birth control than I care to count. Why did you immediately jump to the conclusion that you must sterilize.

You have to think about the magnitude of the sin here.

I know the Catholic Church says don’t use artificial birth control. I agree with them that this has negative spiritual consequences. However, sterilization is a thousand times worse.

What on earth could lead you to conclude that instead of taking a pill, you should mutilate your body, the temple of the Holy Spirit, in some horrible, irreparable way? Do you really think that’s better than using artificial birth control. Be honest.

One of those sins causes permanent damage to the temple of the Holy Spirit, and prevents you from conceiving. The other sin only prevents you from conceiving. Think about what you are doing.

I know this is a Catholic forum, and we’re not supposed to say anything positive about birth control, but consider the gravity of those two actions.

You act like your husband can go get the sterilization and your soul can stay pure. Really? You think God’s going to overlook that? You’re considering letting your husband take the fall for you, and somehow God is going to see that as a holy action on your part? It doesn’t matter whether your husband is a lapsed Catholic or not. You’re in a marriage, and you’re in it together.

I’m sorry if I come off as abrasive or disrespectful. I really don’t mean to be. I’m only posting this because it seems to me like you are jumping to a terrible conclusion, and no one else on this forum seems willing to point that out. There are too many people praising NFP when it’s clear that is not the solution in this situation. Not all sins are created equal. Committing a murder is very different from committing genocide. That’s an extreme example, I know, and I don’t mean to imply that your actions are in any way tantamount to sins like that. I just want to point out that it’s faulty logic to immediately jump to the most extreme and hurtful action you could possibly perform in this situation when there are other far more reasonable things you could try first.

Eeek. This is why she needs to talk to a good Priest, not strangers on the internet. White_Tree, she said they did use condoms but that didn’t fix the problems they are having either. Neither will sterilization. Look around at the extensive damage that birth control has done to the 21st century. It’s devastating . And any way, birth control has just as high of a failure rate as NFP so there’s that. And there’s a chance the sterilization could fail to prevent another pregnancy too. It never ends.

 

[Brendan_64]

How can you say that?? I have been using NFP for TEN YEARS. I kept using it after the first surprise pregnancy, which resulted in me getting fired for being pregnant (I know this because a former boss told me.) I kept using it after the second surprise pregnancy, which resulted in me having a very dangerous complication (preeclampsia), which in turn resulted in me developing pretty severe health anxiety and panic attacks. Then I had a third surprise pregnancy. At that point my husband was also talking divorce and pushing birth control. Then I had a FOURTH surprise pregnancy.

I have been going to an NFP-only doctor for years. I’ve tried multiple methods, a fertility monitor, diet, medications, etc. Nothing has worked. I have had many, many, many discussions and arguments with my husband, I stood my ground for many years. I tried and tried and tried to find a way to make it work. This is going to destroy my marriage and family. I don’t know what else I can do.

I think you’re missing the point. It is **not **about you using NFP for how many years. The thing you are not addressing is the issue of you or your husband being sterilised. The issue is NOT about how upset you feel, the issue is about a grave matter that could potentially result in mortal sin, and you haven’t even spoken to a priest about this? It is not exactly difficult to get to see a priest is it? Just pick up the phone and make an appointment, or just knock on his door, or just discuss it at Confession. It’s a very simple thing to do, yet you refuse to do this and make excuses because a particular priest you saw years ago said a crass thing to you.

And, as has been said before, this is a Catholic discussion forum where issues are discussed in light of Church teaching. If you want spiritual guidance you must go to see a priest. There are no ifs or buts about that. failure to do so could result in grave consequences, potential consequences that could be much graver than the breakup of your marriage. Just go and see a priest. Don’t wait, just go knock on his door, or phone him, see one tomorrow. If you don’t want him to recognise you then go to another parish, diocese, whatever, but go and talk to a priest about it, please.

 

[maryjk]

Are you kidding me?!? Miscarriage would be the best thing that could possibly happen.

I would gladly take any past or future children you brought into this world.
Your marriage will suffer greatly.

Go to hell.

But sdeco, you are the one that stated that a miscarriage would be the best thing that could possibly happen to this child.

But if someone suggests that you give up this child that you don’t want, you tell them to “Go to hell?”

I realize that you are upset. That your husband is a bully. But I just don’t get how you can be upset at the priest or russet. I agree with them. When a woman tells me that the best thing for her unborn child is for that child to die, well, I have to conclude that she doesn’t really care about the child. I pray you spoke in haste and that you really don’t believe that having a miscarriage is the best thing that could happen.

 

[Frank_Drebin]

Also, to be fair, the priest I talked to did recommend counseling for us. I didn’t go for a variety of reasons - money, time, husband didn’t want to go, etc. Plus this priest lost a lot of credibility with me with his adoption comments. I had heard that it’s not a sin to have relations with your spouse if they are using birth control over your objections, so after the third child my husband and I used condoms sometimes if I wasn’t sure if I was fertile. (When I got pregnant this time I had no fertility signs whatsoever, though, so we didn’t use a condom). The priest I talked to seemed to think it would still be a sin for me even if my husband was using condoms, which I was almost positive was not church teaching. He seemed more Catholic than the Pope in some ways.

Counseling is too expensive, but sterilization is in the budget?

 

[Frank_Drebin]

Go to hell.

Why is people come to Catholic Answers, on the internet full of strangers, asking questions they know the answers too, and when they get sincere answers they don’t like, wish eternal damnation on people?

Has anyone wished that you end up in hell? Come on.

Why not simply post a prayer request and be done with it. You know what the Church teaches, have been given good advice and well wishes, and ended up cussing at people trying to help you avoid something eternally dangerous.

 

[jmcrae]

Counseling is too expensive, but sterilization is in the budget?

Keep in mind, the money is in his wallet; not hers.