Would this be considered "shacking up?"

[SeekerJen]

I just read it. I touched on it from a slightly different approach, but all three are related and cannot be seperated.

I myself had to be more cautious with many of the things I was doing because of the scandal the could have caused, and after reading on the importance of avoiding scandal because of its gravity I have since been more prudent to avoid it at all costs.

I have a side question about scandal. Is it only sinful if you can avoid giving it? I ask because my husband and I likely give the appearance of using contraception to avoid children. We have been married 3.5 years, are well-off, and I am a practicing Catholic. There is no obvious outward reason for us to not have children. However, the truth is that we are infertile. Yet the appearance of scandal is still there. So…are we sinning or not? This is something that genuinely concerns and confuses me, I am not trying to be snide or sarcastic.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Instead of worrying about the Gays getting married the Church needs to start worrying about how to keep heterosexuals married, especially when children are involved.

The Church does both, it’s not an either/or thing, and they cannot be seperated. It isn’t a problem from the Church, it’s our problem for not listening to the Church and not taking the role as parents and educating our children in the Faith.

 

[Karianne]

I’m horrible with numbers so I have no clue if your 10% is right or not…I do remember reading somewhere the % of Catholic women who actually practice artifical birth control. I was fairly blown away but not surprised. I know what your saying about the drama stories, there does appear to be many of them. I grew up in the Protestant church actually so shacking up or sex before marriage was frowned upon in my world as well. I fell inlove with my husband things happen, we got married and now I’m not sinner anymore and haven’t been for 20yrs! Life is good.

I do have to say though…married relations are MUCH better than when your single! God does know what is best for us

If I had to do it over again…God forbid! I would live a chaste life until after the wedding. I’d try darn hard anyway!!

I remember reading that the girls most likely to get an abortion were the Catholic girls. I have no idea why, unless it’s the shame factor and the fact that their parishes have failed to make their children feel welcome.

I read this in a Catholic newspaper as well.

 

[OldAgeGuru]

Your old boss was a self righteous Nosy Parker, too?

That’s the Christian way of putting it. I could string together a bunch of words that would make a sailor blush and still not come close my own loathing of her behavior towards me.

I just disagree with the PEOPLE who come to this site who then state THEIR opinion as though it’s the one that the Pope holds.

My opinion is not better than theirs, but it’s mine.

All of society has to deal with the consequences of bad marriages, not just the Church. And since so many Catholics get divorced it would seem that they’re not dealing with it as well as they should. Instead of worrying about the Gays getting married the Church needs to start worrying about how to keep heterosexuals married, especially when children are involved

I think my issue with a lot of this stuff, is the fact that Rome RARELY admits mistakes/ wrongdoing, and when they do, it’s often too late to really have done any good. I live my life the best way I can. I work hard, I love God, I try my best to be charitable to others even when they are my former boss (and if you saw some of the things she did to me and my coworkers, you would understand why her breathing without the aid of a ventilator was downright miraculous on my part). I help my friends when they are in need, I help strangers when they need it. I work for peanuts in a job that helps people and I enjoy the smile on their faces more than the paycheck (tho AmEx and my landlord certainly prefer the paycheck). I volunteer, I go to school to aid me in my career. I just have to hope that when I finally start pushing up daisies, God doesn’t say " You were sooooo good throughout your entire life, acting selflessly, and working daily to improve yourself. You raised wonderful children, aided the poor and elderly, donated time and money and effort generously. You lived an all around good life. Too bad you shacked up with your boyfriend, get your patoot to Hell honey!"

 

[StratusRose]

Just on this site alone you’ll find many divorced Catholics. There may be programs but they’re not working.

Perhaps there was abuse involved, be it physical, mental, substance, etc. Which are grounds for divorce and annulment. It’s not safe to assume. I am sure the Catholics on this website didn’t give up without a fight. There are also many people on this site whose marriages were saved by said programs.

 

[jmcrae]

Where did I say my opinion was better than the church’s opinion?

I just disagree with the PEOPLE who come to this site who then state THEIR opinion as though it’s the one that the Pope holds.

So, you think that the Pope approves of living together before marriage?

All of society has to deal with the consequences of bad marriages, not just the Church. And since so many Catholics get divorced it would seem that they’re not dealing with it as well as they should. Instead of worrying about the Gays getting married the Church needs to start worrying about how to keep heterosexuals married, especially when children are involved.

That’s exactly why the Church keeps insisting and insisting and insisting and insisting on not living together before marriage, even without any sex - because it’s a bad idea that leads ultimately to even more messy divorces, and even more homeless children and teenagers wandering around in the streets.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I have a side question about scandal. Is it only sinful if you can avoid giving it? I ask because my husband and I likely give the appearance of using contraception to avoid children. We have been married 3.5 years, are well-off, and I am a practicing Catholic. There is no obvious outward reason for us to not have children. However, the truth is that we are infertile. Yet the appearance of scandal is still there. So…are we sinning or not? This is something that genuinely concerns and confuses me, I am not trying to be snide or sarcastic.

There is always the issue with culpability when talking about things that may be avoidable, but in your situation (IMO) you wouldn’t be culpable for it because it is unavoidable and the matter (being infertile) is also not sinful.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I just have to hope that when I finally start pushing up daisies, God doesn’t say " You were sooooo good throughout your entire life, acting selflessly, and working daily to improve yourself. You raised wonderful children, aided the poor and elderly, donated time and money and effort generously. You lived an all around good life. Too bad you shacked up with your boyfriend, get your patoot to Hell honey!"

If you had contrition and confessed this sin then you need not worry.

 

[Sanctus9]

Having watched postings on these discussion boards for some time, I have always resisted the temptation to pounce upon the many misguided citations to the Bible that are thrown out in piecemeal fashion to “support” one’s own beliefs/ interpretations/points of view. To selectively cite a line from the Bible to promote “good behavior” is misguided. And to mis-quote text from the Bible in doing so is either ignorant or dishonest.

With regard to “jmcrae’s” response to “Karianne” and “Aly,”
regardless of whether the text refers to children (or how one might selectively define the term through further selective citation) or to pre-marital sex or anything else, Luke 17 says “It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!” The “millstone” was for the “him” through whom the offences came." So, no offense, no millstone.

I further note that “Aly” said that she believed that she was inclined to worry about relationship with God (and not judge others). The responsive citation to John 13:34, therefore, seems somewhat irrelevant, but onlyas a “bridge” to jmcrae’s foregone conclusion that follows.

As a “holier than though” attitude (usually based upon their own view of the Faith and Bibilical text) seems to be a common theme throughout many of these discussions, including this one, I will stick my neck out and risk selectively citing text myself by noting the following:

Matthew 6
1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them…
2…do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets…
4That thine alms may be in secret…
5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men…
6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
16Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

It appears as though the “big picture” and the inspiration of the Faith in our young (such as Karianne and Aly) are often lost amongst the trivia and pontification of those “who love to pray standing in the… corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.”

S9

 

[sneakers]

Bless you for your committment to remaining chaste until your marriage…

Perhaps it may be said it is nobody else’s business because God knows you are remaining chaste. And perhaps it may seem unimportant how it appears to others. However, it is a poor witness to others who may know that you profess to be good Catholics and yet are living together. Even though you are living as brother and sister, others will assume otherwise. It is better to be an example to others and not live together until you are married.

May you and your future husband have a lifelong wonderful, strong, holy marriage!

sneakers

 

[fcbv]

I don’t know exactly what to do… If your fiancé and you are chaste and you’re determined to remain chaste until your wedding, look out! In fact, sharing a house before marrige it is dangerous, due to the occasions of sin that appear when a couple live together before the marriage… Remain strong, both of you, and good luck with your marriage! May it lasts for all your life!

 

[jmcrae]

Sanctus;

It’s never okay to set a poor example and lead others to think that it’s okay to commit sin.

This has nothing to do with giving alms with a trumpet blast, or judging others. We must judge ourselves, and we need to make sure that we are not the person who is making it look like it’s “okay” to commit sin - making it seem as if you can be considered a good faithful devout Catholic woman while living together with your boyfriend, and that there’s nothing wrong with that since “everyone does it” and the Protestants will scoop them up if we “judge” them (ie: warn them of the possible consequences) in any way whatsoever - we just have to smiiiiiile and smiiiiile and say, “Oh, that’s so nice,” even though we know already that they are most likely being set up for disaster later on in life.

 

[OldAgeGuru]

Even though you are living as brother and sister, others will assume otherwise. It is better to be an example to others and not live together until you are married.
sneakers

Ahhh you said the magic word! You know what happens when you assume? You make an …

 

[anamchara]

Bless you for your committment to remaining chaste until your marriage…

Perhaps it may be said it is nobody else’s business because God knows you are remaining chaste. And perhaps it may seem unimportant how it appears to others. However, it is a poor witness to others who may know that you profess to be good Catholics and yet are living together. Even though you are living as brother and sister, others will assume otherwise. It is better to be an example to others and not live together until you are married.

May you and your future husband have a lifelong wonderful, strong, holy marriage!

sneakers

Very lovely way of putting things sneaker, I like yer gentle approach.

 

[Karianne]

Perhaps there was abuse involved, be it physical, mental, substance, etc. Which are grounds for divorce and annulment. It’s not safe to assume. I am sure the Catholics on this website didn’t give up without a fight. There are also many people on this site whose marriages were saved by said programs.

Well, I don’t know the stats on your assersion . Annulments are very difficult to get and I think that you need to study up on them, however that would be very a very dismal topic for someone who thinks that she might be getting married.

Don’t you have a parish priest to talk to about this? Are you involved in Pre-cana yet? I know the church closest to Kensington has plenty of priests and I am sure that one would be happy to at least give you their opinion.
Just out of curiosity, you said that you are the only one in your family who has not “shacked up”. How did their marriages work out and how did their shacking up affect you?

 

[StratusRose]

Well, I don’t know the stats on your assersion . Annulments are very difficult to get and I think that you need to study up on them, however that would be very a very dismal topic for someone who thinks that she might be getting married.

Don’t you have a parish priest to talk to about this? Are you involved in Pre-cana yet? I know the church closest to Kensington has plenty of priests and I am sure that one would be happy to at least give you their opinion.
Just out of curiosity, you said that you are the only one in your family who has not “shacked up”. How did their marriages work out and how did their shacking up affect you?

I know more about annulments than you give me credit for. However it’s a moot point as I have no interest in interviewing the people on this forum who have had divorces. I just don’t assume. Period.

I have a priest I can talk to about this, we are seeing him next month to iron out details about the wedding. I was just throwing out this idea to see everyone’s take on it. Apparently, some people have treated me as if I have already started packing.

We’ve already done the Engaged Encounter weekend.

Let’s see…Mom and Dad shacked up, they’re divorced. The other family members are still married.

 

[Sanctus9]

jmcrae:

Oh, I can definitely hear the trumpet blasting! All too often, I might add.

The OP originally asked whether it would be “acceptable” if she lived with her fiancé and remained chaste before her wedding day. You opined quite definitively that it would not, because others might see her being “allowed to go to Church” and conclude that “the Church is okay with it” and that God condones “whatever I do” and thus, have a “few kids” out of wedlock and end up on welfare.

You then set forth a rather absolute statement of fact that “Leading other people to think it’s (sic) okay to commit sin is just as much of a sin as doing the sin yourself.”

When I read this, I tended to agree with Aly (“WoW”) and similarly wondered whether this equivalency was set forth anywhere in the Bible.

You definitely concluded that it was and cited Luke 17, which was oddly out of context.

Having seen so much of this in these discussions, I spoke up. Although you presumably read my posting, you apparently failed to note that I did not even suggest your opinion was incorrect. I simply criticized selective and misleading citations to Biblical text and the tendency of some to present opinion as fact. This, according to Webster, is known as” pontification” (“expressing opinions …as if they were facts.”).

Apparently missing my point entirely, you pontificated further by claiming “It’s never okay to set a poor example and lead others to think that it’s okay to commit sin.”

Use of an absolute like “never,” of course, is a sure sign that an unsupportable opinion will immediately follow. In fact, when examined this opinion reveals itself as nothing more than a thinly disguised restatement of the previous opinion you were presumably trying to defend (“Leading other people to think it’s okay to commit sin is just as much of a sin as doing the sin yourself.” ).

The OP’s proposed move-in is probably not a perfect state of affairs, but pales in comparison to obtuse and absolute condemnation of behavior that is probably technically “acceptable” solely because others (who by your characterization are simultaneously cognizant and completely ignorant of Church teachings) might be confused by it. Perhaps if efforts were made to teach them that thinking in “absolute” terms tends to be logically unsound, misleading, and an oversimplification of life and the Church’s teachings, they wouldn’t be so confused.

In your defense you say “people…look to us [Catholics] to show them what God requires.” If this is true, then it is critical that the “people” be shown the facts. Offensive, overbearing, heavy-handed, and unsupported opinions as to what God requires have and will do far more damage to the Cause than the OP’s proposed move-in could ever do.

So, StratusRose, in my humble opinion, it would not be “shacking up” as the term is commonly used. While it would likely be a better state of affairs if you waited to move in until you were actually married, if circumstances truly dictate otherwise an earlier move-in under the terms you described is “acceptable.”

Remember, God is all knowing and as long as commonsense remains a subset of knowledge, I think you’ll be OK even though a “one-liner” from the Bible might in someone’s opinion be viewed otherwise.

S9

 

[E.E.N.S]

As just a random 3rd party to this I wanted to state that I did not find jmcrae’s statement to be “offensive, overbearing, heavy-handed, or unsupported…” to me it seemed like an appropriate response from someone who has the best interest of the soul in mind.

Too often I see people on this forum who are trying to do the right thing get trampled on be people who want to do the feel-good thing.

jmcrae, keep up the good work.

OP, pray for guidance, seek a good spiritual advisor, and read what the Church says in her documents and catechism - you will receive the necessary grace to do His will in all things, and it will bring you great peace in you life and in your relationships.

 

[Sanctus9]

I tend to choose my words carefully:

Statements by jmcrae like these

“Are you kidding me - you really don’t know? You move in with him when you get back from the honeymoon, and not a moment sooner.”

“you don’t sleep overnight there, or even so much as walk through that door, until he carries you over the threshold, after you guys get back from the honeymoon.”

“it’s just shocking to me that people are this badly educated about marriage. Even Barbie the doll knew that she couldn’t live with Ken until after the honeymoon trip to Malibu Beach.”

“Don’t play the idiot.”

“Leading other people to think it’s okay to commit sin is just as much of a sin as doing the sin yourself.”

“It’s never okay to set a poor example and lead others to think that it’s okay to commit sin.”

are offensive (as seen by the reaction to them), are not supported by anything but his opnion and mis-cited Biblical text, and are unnecessarily harsh and lacking tact.

This is how the words I used are defined.

Just as wanting something to be true doesn’t make it so, wanting things to be not so does not make them not so.

And…remember: Just because YOU wouldn’t do something, doesn’t mean its “wrong.”

S9 - Over & Out.

 

[Norseman82]

Stratus,

It sounds like this exercise has been fruitful in that you have come up with some alternatives on your own. I am in the camp that believes that if you move in with him prior to marriage, there will be temptation, so I pray that you and your fiancee will remain strong.

Everyone else,

There seems to be some heated discussion regarding the “public scandal” factor. Please do not treat this issue lightly, as in our parish one of the EMs is cohabitating and I am hearing of discord among neighbors about it. And when there was a Theology-on-Tap session on the topic of why cohabitation was bad, the director of family ministries for the neighboring diocese said that people who cohabitate should not be in a leadership position in church.