Would you support the Traditional Latin Mass in the vernacular?

[Lycorth]

The question is a contradiction in terms.

I realized I should have written it Would you support the Traditional Mass in the vernacular? but it was too late

 

[ProVobis]

I realized I should have written it Would you support the Traditional Mass in the vernacular? but it was too late

Perhaps the Traditional (or pre-Vatican II) Mass of the Latin Rite?

 

[StevenFrancis]

I have wondered about this myself, and I have seen a few posts on this forum basically expressing similar ideas.

Essentially, would you support the Traditional Latin Mass being merely translated into the vernacular and this being used to replace the current OF?

I know this isn’t an option that is on the table at the Vatican (to the best of my knowledge) and that other conditions may apply (essentially, this is another “new” Mass form, etc), but on its face, what do you think of it? Personally, I think it would be a great idea to retain all the traditional rubrics, forms, and reverences of the TLM, down to the littlest and seemingly least, and merely say the entire Mass in the vernacular; those who cannot abide hearing the Mass in a language they do not understand will have that problem averted, and those of us who prefer the traditional reverential practices and forms will have our concerns met.

Optionally, what about music? What about using traditional hymns of the sort that we use at most OF Masses now (excepting those Masses that are intentionally vulgar) in place of Gregorian chant and motets? Personally, I prefer chant and motets; I can’t sing and I don’t like lip-synching or trying to fake singing as I cannot carry a tune in a bucket and am not at all comfortable with it, and being a Medievalist I simply adore such ancient music, but that’s just me. Many people seem to like being able to sing out and praise God in song (my wife is one such person), and a vernacular TLM that included hymns wherever possible could also appeal to those who want to sing out and might be uncomfortable at a Mass where they had no singing to offer.

Also, might the TLM in the vernacular help to encourage Catholics to want the actual TLM at their parishes? If Catholics become accustomed to the form of the TLM in their native tongue, the transition to Latin might be an entirely smaller leap than going straight from the Of to the TLM. Of course, plenty of Catholics do that these days, anyway; I know I’d have very little trouble with it personally. But, again, that’s just me.

There are a dozen threads dealing with the differences between the Mass of Paul VI and the Traditional Latin Mass. I don’t want this thread to be just another one of those. Why on earth Vatican II did not just require the TLM to be said in the vernacular instead of building a whole new Mass is beyond me, but that, too, is a discussion for another thread (or dozen threads). I’m more interested in just one topic that doesn’t seem to be discussed much - replacing the current OF with the TLM in the vernacular.

I answered yes on impulse, but frankly, I don’t think I know or understand enough about the issues. I’m a convert, and I’ve only been going to Mass for about 6 years. The whole time it’s been in the vernacular. There’s a parish too far away from me that has TLM, but I’ve never been able to make it out there, but I’ve seen it on EWTN. It’s quite beautiful. Ive been fitting into the traditionalists niche mostly since I’ve begun Catholocism, but the Mass part has still got me in a quandary.

I also must admit some naivitee, as I thought the new missal that the Church was assembling viz a vis the USCCB was pretty much what you’re describing. Am I wrong in that understanding? It’s not finding the more literal meanings from the Latin?

Well anyway, as we’re the universal Church, I guess I’d like a universal language in the long run again. Latin it was, and Latin it should be once the corrections to the liberal interpretations of VII are all ironed out. Since there’s SO much backpedalling to do, I like it to occur over 20 years or so, and for about 10 of those years, I’d like to see the TLM, (or even Novus Ordo in Latin) be offered simultaneously with the TLM in the vernacular.

Pipe dreams I’m sure. As long as I get to celebrate the Liturgy of the Word, and the Liturgy of the Holy Eucharist with my fellow Catholic Christians I’m there.

Peace to all,

Steven

 

[Lycorth]

I answered yes on impulse, but frankly, I don’t think I know or understand enough about the issues. I’m a convert, and I’ve only been going to Mass for about 6 years. The whole time it’s been in the vernacular. There’s a parish too far away from me that has TLM, but I’ve never been able to make it out there, but I’ve seen it on EWTN. It’s quite beautiful. Ive been fitting into the traditionalists niche mostly since I’ve begun Catholocism, but the Mass part has still got me in a quandary.

Welcome to the Church!

I understand about never being able to make it to the TLM; there’s a church about an hour away from me that offers one, but I never seem to get a chance to go. Something always comes up.

I also must admit some naivitee, as I thought the new missal that the Church was assembling viz a vis the USCCB was pretty much what you’re describing. Am I wrong in that understanding? It’s not finding the more literal meanings from the Latin?

Unless I miss my guess, the new missal that you’re talking about is about restoring some of the traditional approaches and rubrics, not all, as would be the case if the Traditional Mass was ordered to be offered in the vernacular in place of the Mass of Paul VI.

Well anyway, as we’re the universal Church, I guess I’d like a universal language in the long run again. Latin it was, and Latin it should be once the corrections to the liberal interpretations of VII are all ironed out. Since there’s SO much backpedalling to do, I like it to occur over 20 years or so, and for about 10 of those years, I’d like to see the TLM, (or even Novus Ordo in Latin) be offered simultaneously with the TLM in the vernacular.

Pipe dreams I’m sure. As long as I get to celebrate the Liturgy of the Word, and the Liturgy of the Holy Eucharist with my fellow Catholic Christians I’m there.

I agree; if you go back and read the rest of the thread, you’ll see that I already know that this is a theoretical discussion; the Church hasn’t any plans to order the Mass to always be a vernacular TLM or what have you. It’s mainly to discuss how much more preferable the Traditional Mass’ form is to the current, especially in the case of rubrics. Latin remains the most practical universal language for the Church to use and remains the best language for the Mass, be it a Traditional Mass or a Novus Ordo Mass.

 

[MarkThompson]

Unless I miss my guess, the new missal that you’re talking about is about restoring some of the traditional approaches and rubrics, not all, as would be the case if the Traditional Mass was ordered to be offered in the vernacular in place of the Mass of Paul VI.

The new English translation is just that: a new translation of the Latin editio typica into English. No rubrics, or anything else for that matter, are being added or removed.

 

[bobrec]

I voted no because I believe in keeping the tradition of the Church alive. As a cradle Catholic who just recently returned to the Church I love the Latin mass because it used to define us as Catholics. The Reformation opposed the Latin Mass and thought that by discontinuing it, Catholicism could be destroyed.

But the initial poll is rhetorical so I’m simply giving my opinion.

I’m NOT a big fan of Gregorian Chant and do not see that it does anything besides unnecessarily prolong the Mass. I mean no offense to anyone but the prayers are so drawn out as to be tedious.

I really miss and would like to be able to sing some of the old hymns we sang when I was a choir boy and that the parishioners sang at Mass. Holy God, Immaculate Mary, Long Live the Pope, etc.

I don’t understand why they are now considered irreverent.

 

[Nowhere_Man]

I really miss and would like to be able to sing some of the old hymns we sang when I was a choir boy and that the parishioners sang at Mass. Holy God, Immaculate Mary, Long Live the Pope, etc.

I don’t understand why they are now considered irreverent.

I don’t think many people consider those hymns irreverent; it’s more the hymns that either seem to be self-centered instead of God centered, such as “Here I Am Lord” and “I Myself Am the Bread Of Life”, or downplay important beliefs like “Amazing Grace” (which is open interpretation, but can definitely be misinterpreted) and “Lord of the Dance”. And, most unfortunately, these hymns seem to be the most popular ones, in my experience anyway.

 

[Lycorth]

I really miss and would like to be able to sing some of the old hymns we sang when I was a choir boy and that the parishioners sang at Mass. Holy God, Immaculate Mary, Long Live the Pope, etc.

Amen! I miss having Immaculate Mary and Here I am, Lord sung at Mass. Just to think of the title of either gets them stuck in my head; I can joyfully recall long years of Catholic school where these hymns were staples.

 

[garyfigurski]

I think our Pop had the best answer leave the older form alone. Let the two be side by side to learn from each other. This is my simple thought.

 

[joedecarlo]

I have wondered about this myself, and I have seen a few posts on this forum basically expressing similar ideas.

Essentially, would you support the Traditional Latin Mass being merely translated into the vernacular and this being used to replace the current OF?

I know this isn’t an option that is on the table at the Vatican (to the best of my knowledge) and that other conditions may apply (essentially, this is another “new” Mass form, etc), but on its face, what do you think of it? Personally, I think it would be a great idea to retain all the traditional rubrics, forms, and reverences of the TLM, down to the littlest and seemingly least, and merely say the entire Mass in the vernacular; those who cannot abide hearing the Mass in a language they do not understand will have that problem averted, and those of us who prefer the traditional reverential practices and forms will have our concerns met.

Optionally, what about music? What about using traditional hymns of the sort that we use at most OF Masses now (excepting those Masses that are intentionally vulgar) in place of Gregorian chant and motets? Personally, I prefer chant and motets; I can’t sing and I don’t like lip-synching or trying to fake singing as I cannot carry a tune in a bucket and am not at all comfortable with it, and being a Medievalist I simply adore such ancient music, but that’s just me. Many people seem to like being able to sing out and praise God in song (my wife is one such person), and a vernacular TLM that included hymns wherever possible could also appeal to those who want to sing out and might be uncomfortable at a Mass where they had no singing to offer.

Also, might the TLM in the vernacular help to encourage Catholics to want the actual TLM at their parishes? If Catholics become accustomed to the form of the TLM in their native tongue, the transition to Latin might be an entirely smaller leap than going straight from the Of to the TLM. Of course, plenty of Catholics do that these days, anyway; I know I’d have very little trouble with it personally. But, again, that’s just me.

There are a dozen threads dealing with the differences between the Mass of Paul VI and the Traditional Latin Mass. I don’t want this thread to be just another one of those. Why on earth Vatican II did not just require the TLM to be said in the vernacular instead of building a whole new Mass is beyond me, but that, too, is a discussion for another thread (or dozen threads). I’m more interested in just one topic that doesn’t seem to be discussed much - replacing the current OF with the TLM in the vernacular.

The Latin mass would not be the Latin mass if it were in the vernacular. This is supposed to be a Traditional Catholic Forum? If you voted yes, you are not a traditionalist.

 

[mjroth5]

On the music, can’t you already use hymns in the EF that are not chanted, for example “Holy God We Praise Thy Name”?

On the use of the vernacular, using English would be a very traditional Anglican service. If said in some languages/dialects from Asia and Africa the Mass would not flow cleanly, meaning a High Mass would be impossible as the priest would not be able to chant the prayers smoothly.

I’ll repeat what others have said as my last point; the Tridentine Mass is said in Latin, and not in the vernacular.

 

[Lycorth]

The Latin mass would not be the Latin mass if it were in the vernacular. This is supposed to be a Traditional Catholic Forum? If you voted yes, you are not a traditionalist.

No kidding it wouldn’t be the Latin Mass, Sherlock. Read the whole thread, then comment. People are so lazy these days.

 

[Hesychios]

The Latin mass would not be the Latin mass if it were in the vernacular.

Considering that it is the Traditional Mass for the Latin rite, I think a little leeway is in order. After all (as has already been pointed out) it was also served in Old Slavonic and in it’s earliest form at the city of Rome it was served in Greek. TLM is something of a misnomer then.

We used to call it the Tridentine Mass when I was young, although that isn’t entirely correct either.

It is a legitimate question though.

I didn’t vote, but I think the rubrics and the quality of the hymns is far more important than the language. I am sure there must be a lot of Catholics who now attend the Missa Normativa in the vernacular but would appreciate the older rubrics.

This is supposed to be a Traditional Catholic Forum? If you voted yes, you are not a traditionalist.

That kind of comment is just begging for a ho-hum response. :yawn:

I have to wonder if anyone worries about that.

 

[ProVobis]

I didn’t vote, but I think the rubrics and the quality of the hymns is far more important than the language.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

However, the precision of the language is most important in the integrity of the TLM or Traditional Mass or any Mass for that matter.

 

[mick321]

No kidding it wouldn’t be the Latin Mass, Sherlock. Read the whole thread, then comment. People are so lazy these days.

I agree, but a curious choice of words under the circumstances.

Posted by Lycorth Jun 21, '10 6:17 pm
…
I understand about never being able to make it to the TLM; there’s a church about an hour away from me that offers one, but I never seem to get a chance to go. Something always comes up.
…

Cradle Catholic right? Born in the 70’s? Catholic schools in the 80’s? Joined CA forums six months ago? Since then, 24 weekly decisions to avoid the EF in favor of the OF?

It appears that your Catholic sensibilities were formed entirely within the modernist era. Making the case for a vernacular EF before having attended a genuine EF would seem to suggest a deeply entrenched Novus Ordo mindset, despite the identification of Traditional Catholic.

Happy Holidays.

 

[Lycorth]

I agree, but a curious choice of words under the circumstances.

Cradle Catholic right? Born in the 70’s? Catholic schools in the 80’s? Joined CA forums six months ago? Since then, 24 weekly decisions to avoid the EF in favor of the OF?

It appears that your Catholic sensibilities were formed entirely within the modernist era. Making the case for a vernacular EF before having attended a genuine EF would seem to suggest a deeply entrenched Novus Ordo mindset, despite the identification of Traditional Catholic.

Happy Holidays.

I haven’t decided to avoid the EF in favor of the OF - I normally cannot make it to the EF to begin with.

But I’ll give you this much; I haven’t attended the EF yet and hope to this Thursday evening. I suspect it will reinforce what I already think, that Latin remains the ideal to strive for.

But anyone who has paid any attention to this thread knows that’s been my stance from the beginning, so relax or bugger off

 

[mick321]

I haven’t decided to avoid the EF in favor of the OF - I normally cannot make it to the EF to begin with.

But I’ll give you this much; I haven’t attended the EF yet and hope to this Thursday evening. I suspect it will reinforce what I already think, that Latin remains the ideal to strive for.

But anyone who has paid any attention to this thread knows that’s been my stance from the beginning, so relax or bugger off

Understand.

Welcome to the varsity.

Have a safe drive.

H a p p y H o l i d a y s
.

.

 

[archangel04]

I haven’t decided to avoid the EF in favor of the OF - I normally cannot make it to the EF to begin with.

But I’ll give you this much; I haven’t attended the EF yet and hope to this Thursday evening. I suspect it will reinforce what I already think, that Latin remains the ideal to strive for.

But anyone who has paid any attention to this thread knows that’s been my stance from the beginning, so relax or bugger off

I have been attending the EF for about a month now and love it, although I did almost fall asleep at one mass because I had only gotten 2 hours of sleep due to some hard work , but the incense makes sure you wake up heh heh.

One thing I have notice is that believe it or not I appreciate the OF a lot more and realize what a great gift we have been offered due to the EF, but due to lack of education, faith and reverence we can’t see what kind of Mass the OF really is. I will catch myself sometimes missing responding outloud some of the prayers. No doubt I feel the reverence is greater at the EF, but the OF has it too, but we are just to “dumb” to be able to unlock that scaredness and reverence the OF very much deserves.

But yes I would support a form of the EF in the venucalar, but not all of it.

 

[Lycorth]

Understand.

Welcome to the varsity.

Have a safe drive.

H a p p y H o l i d a y s
.

.

Thanks, old top - looking forward to it mightily

I have been attending the EF for about a month now and love it, although I did almost fall asleep at one mass because I had only gotten 2 hours of sleep due to some hard work , but the incense makes sure you wake up heh heh.

One thing I have notice is that believe it or not I appreciate the OF a lot more and realize what a great gift we have been offered due to the EF, but due to lack of education, faith and reverence we can’t see what kind of Mass the OF really is. I will catch myself sometimes missing responding outloud some of the prayers. No doubt I feel the reverence is greater at the EF, but the OF has it too, but we are just to “dumb” to be able to unlock that scaredness and reverence the OF very much deserves.

But yes I would support a form of the EF in the venucalar, but not all of it.

Fascinating - I wonder how much of this I shall feel if I get to attend my first EF Mass. I know it will only help to increase my reverence and deepen my sense of true Catholic tradition, but as for helping instill a greater reverence for the OF - didn’t think about that.

I was blessed enough to have in my home church what I might call a scrupulously traditional approach to the OF; old-school priests from Europe using as much Latin as they could during Mass, the altar rail stayed right where it was, old-fashioned vestments would be brought out at least for holy days and so forth. Perhaps I’ll be able to reconnect with some of that following my first EF. God knows…

 

[darren263]

Good one dude…keep doing nice work