YOGA...ooer!

[Michael_Mayo]

You are right.

With your reasoning you are right: Pope Francis said this for…

…absolutely no reason. Of course! I should have known all along. He said it to mean nothing and for no reason! How could I have missed this?! :whacky:

What you missed was Francis asserting that the Holy Spirit is the only thing with the power to free peoples’ hearts for God. Nothing, not even formal religious classes offered by the Catholic Church itself, could facilitate a loving disposition without a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit.

That is what you missed.

 

[friardchips]

Show me what you think I should respond to if you want a response.

The only spiritual “danger” of yoga I can see is buying into some aspects of the philosophy that might include self salvation, self as God, loss of individuality, God as impersonal force or worship of some god who is actually a personification of some concept.

Yes. And following our line of chat which you agreed with about their being no compasi

The stretches in themselves are merely bodily position independent of philosophy just as other self disciplines.

You have all worn me out. I don’t think you are out to annoy but honestly…if you want to see what was written go back and look.

Ultimately, if Pope Francis wasn’t warning against Yoga then why did he speak about it, and use those words? Did he speak for no reason when he said “Do not seek spiritual answers in yoga”? Did they just slip out of his mouth during a loss of control over his language? What was he doing then when he said those words?

Or, did he just speak for no reason? Were those words just random words?

Please…let’s not insult our intelligence anymore.

The point of fact is, that the Church is not keen on Christians practising Yoga, it has been advised against, by the Pope and by the document warning about New Age, but you want to do it anyway, regardless? I am right? This admission I could respect! But when people flatly deny that what has definitely been said has been said then this goes beyond comprehension. I can’t understand this psychology. All I can think is it must be some force emanating from the practice of Yoga.

 

[christofirst]

All I can say is when my herniated discs are flaring up you will find me doing lots and lots of Upward Facing Dog. It’s the only thing that works.

But I don’t think it’s a sin because I call it a Press Up.

It is not a sin, because it is not objectively sinful, and it is not your intention to sin, only to function better without so much pain. If anyone were to insist that you must endure your pain because they thought the only stretches that help you were sinful, that to me would be sinful. I have back pain too, spinal stenosis, and I’m glad you are able to find some relief.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

You have all worn me out. I don’t think you are out to annoy but honestly…if you want to see what was written go back and look.

Ultimately, if Pope Francis wasn’t warning against Yoga then why did he speak about it, and use those words? Did he speak for no reason when he said “Do not seek spiritual answers in yoga”? Did they just slip out of his mouth during a loss of control over his language? What was he doing then when he said those words?

Or, did he just speak for no reason? Were those words just random words?

Please…let’s not insult our intelligence anymore.

The point of fact is, that the Church is not keen on Christians practising Yoga, it has been advised against, by the Pope and by the document warning about New Age, but you want to do it anyway, regardless? I am right? This admission I could respect! But when people flatly deny that what has definitely been said has been said then this goes beyond comprehension. I can’t understand this psychology. All I can think is it must be some force emanating from the practice of Yoga.

His words were in the context of love. He also said:

“When a heart becomes hardened, it’s not free and if it’s not free it’s because that person isn’t capable of love, that was the fate of the Apostle John in the first Reading. A love that’s perfect banishes fear: in love there’s no fear, because fear is expecting a punishment and a person who’s afraid doesn’t have a perfect love. He or she is not free. They are constantly afraid that something painful or sad will occur, that will cause their life to go badly or will endanger their eternal salvation … What an (over-active) imagination, because he or she can’t love. A person who isn’t capable of loving is not free. And their heart was hardened because they hadn’t learned how to love.”

He wasn’t speaking of yoga anymore than he was speaking about catechism. He was speaking about hardened heart, inability to love and fear.

“You can follow a thousand catechism courses, a thousand spirituality courses, a thousand yoga or zen courses and all these things. But none of this will be able to give you the freedom as a child (of God). Only the Holy Spirit can prompt your heart to say ‘Father.’ Only the Holy Spirit is capable of banishing, of breaking that hardness of heart and making it … soft? No, I don’t like that word, … ‘docile’. Docile towards the Lord. Docile when it comes to the freedom to love.”

 

[friardchips]

What you missed was Francis asserting that the Holy Spirit is the only thing with the power to free peoples’ hearts for God. Nothing, not even formal religious classes offered by the Catholic Church itself, could facilitate a loving disposition without a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit.

That is what you missed.

I’ll go back and have a look but this is not the only part of what he said.

Yes, he did say the part about the Holy Spirit. And if this was all he said then one might be inclined to think the whole argument about Christian Yoga was not yet in full flow.

Yes, he mentioned the “catechism”. So one might be inclined to think he meant that we could still do Yoga because he wouldn’t tell us not to do catechism classes.

But my first argument is as follows:

Catechism classes are not going to involve a deepening of relationship with the Holy Spirit because it is a course of learning. A class. So to compare Yoga with a study-course is not exactly overwhelming support for Yoga. And if these don’t deepen one’s relationship with the Holy Spirit then the Pope is not going to advocate wasting our time, is he?! No. And if seeking spiritual answers from a catechism course then we are wasting our time. As is doing Yoga and Zen for spiritual growth.

Second argument: the word “can”. He said you “can” do all these things. Now if we take this translation accurately, we can deduce that he is not going to tell Christians that they “can” do Zen, and he is not putting Zen and Yoga, or catechism classes on a par, because they are all uniquely diffferent to each other as learning processes go. So he is obviously saying, in fuller explanation: “You CAN do all things, for good or bad, or neutral, people can do all sorts of things, but…” - by saying we “can” does not permit us to seek using those ways, it merely says that we can do lots of things,as we do, and from the many things we do, some won’t lead us to the Holy Spirit. So if we can’t seek spiritual answers from Yoga then it is pointless. Is he then advocating wasting our time if seeking spritual answers is useless? Again, no.

He is saying that your love for the Holy Spirit WITHOUT Yoga, without Zen, and WITHOUT, yes, the catechism, is enough. These other things do not deepen one’s relationship with the Holy Spirit. It is your faith and love without these external practices that deepen the relationship. Prayers not practices. Before you say it: the Rosary is a prayer and takes no action but stillness. One could pray the Rosary without beads even.
The emphasis is on the prayer not the action.

 

[friardchips]

Michael, what I believe, truly, is that maybe Yoga helps you to relax but that you put too much emphasis on the action of Yoga. You said that you’ve been doing it for years and it has helped.

I would suggest having more trust in just your faith, and that it was faith and is your faith that saves you. Maybe Yoga has helped you to relax (I am reserving drawing conclusions on that) but it is YOUR FAITH, your prayers, your heart, your dedication to praying that is the emphasis here. The action in your heart. Your absolute dedication to praying. To put so much down to Yoga is not really glorifying our Creator with as much emphasis as one could and at the same time you are not giving yourself enough credit. Have you thought that maybe the Yoga might have consciously helped to relax but it is only your prayer, your faith, your persistence, your dedication, that saves you. Have you maybe thought, considering that you share a day with a very special woman, that it is her prayers for you also that deepens your relationship and that Yoga is not what makes the significant difference? Maybe I am clutching at straws. Maybe I am wrong. But I do think that external practices do not hold power, what holds the power, is faith in prayer. Prayers from saints and from our Holy Mother. And grace which is a GIFT from our Creator. We don’t do anything to receive a deepening of conversion except to go and sit with Him. We can never earn our faith but rather hope and trust in it. And ask for it. This is enough.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I have never said anything different from what you just stated.
Yoga is but one small aspect of my life. I am surprised that you think otherwise.
I only defend it because it has been so wrongfully attacked.

 

[friardchips]

I have never said anything different from what you just stated.

:doh2:

 

[Michael_Mayo]

:doh2:

You make it sound as if I live and breathe for Yoga and base my entire spirituality on it, as if I think it will save me and is all that I need. I never said anything near that.

 

[friardchips]

So, what everyone believes on here, is that Pope Francis was in fact saying that one can do all those things, and can actually do them with no issues, but without the Holy Spirit, will be completely pointless? So if one does do those things WITH the Holy Spirit welcomed into the practices, thus making them seemingly Christ-centred, then one CAN do those things? Right?

If this *is * the case, then can you counter-argue, reconcile, my two arguments regarding his sentiments, in post 925?

I am interested to see…?!

 

[Michael_Mayo]

So, what everyone believes on here, is that Pope Francis was in fact saying that one can do all those things, and can actually do them with no issues, but without the Holy Spirit, will be completely pointless? So if one does do those things WITH the Holy Spirit welcomed into the practices, thus making them seemingly Christ-centred, then one CAN do those things? Right?

If this *is * the case, then can you counter-argue, reconcile, my two arguments regarding his sentiments, in post 925?

I am interested to see…?!

Not completely pointless. One will still learn the catechism. One will still gain health benefits of yoga. But without the love of the Holy Spirit they will not know the freedom of that love.

Welcoming the Holy Spirit, in all things, is advantageous.

 

[friardchips]

Not completely pointless. One will still learn the catechism. One will still gain health benefits of yoga. But without the love of the Holy Spirit they will net know the freedom of that love.

Welcoming the Holy Spirit, in all things, is advantageous.

Right. So, for people seeking spiritual answers in Yoga, and inviting the Holy Spirit in to their spiritual Yoga, how do you reconcile inviting the Holy Spirit into a practice that is not centred on Him but hangs on a Hindu belief system? Are you somehow suggesting that the Holy Spirit would welcome being invited into the worship of idols in a pantheistic religion?

How about the fact that people are not being led to our Creator through Yoga and instead are led into Hindu worship? Or don’t you read the news?

How about the fact that prayer comes before effort?

How about ,that exercise is only exercise IF it is disconnected from Yoga history? In fact, only if it is disconnected from Yoga, full stop.

You’ve never satisfactorily answered any of the above. Not once.

How about a response to post 925, that refutes your above argument outright?

 

[friardchips]

Maybe I could invite the Holy Spirit into kick-boxing? I could invite Him into all sorts of things but it doesn’t mean to say those things will deepen my relationship with Him. Yoga is one of those things that is not compatible with Christianity. IOW.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Right. So, for people seeking spiritual answers in Yoga, and inviting the Holy Spirit in to their spiritual Yoga, how do you reconcile inviting the Holy Spirit into a practice that is not centred on Him but hangs on a Hindu belief system?

We have the ability to center it on him just as we do with celibacy, with bells at Mass, with incense, etc

Are you somehow suggesting that the Holy Spirit would welcome being invited into the worship of idols in a pantheistic religion?

Not at all. That is all your baggage.

How about the fact that people are not being led to our Creator through Yoga and instead are led into Hindu worship?

People can be led all sorts of ways by all sorts of things. Look as Westboro Baptists. So what?

Or don’t you read the news?

Now who is being disrespectful?

How about the fact that prayer comes before effort?

I never claimed otherwise.

How about ,that exercise is only exercise IF it is disconnected from Yoga history? In fact, only if it is disconnected from Yoga, full stop.

From Yoga philosophy PHILOSOPHY.

You’ve never satisfactorily answered any of the above. Not once.

How about a response to post 925, that refutes your above argument outright?

Have you ever tried to untangle a very fine chain necklace? That is the logic of your Post 925. Twisted and tangled. But I will try.:bowdown:

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Maybe I could invite the Holy Spirit into kick-boxing? I could invite Him into all sorts of things but it doesn’t mean to say those things will deepen my relationship with Him. Yoga is one of those things that is not compatible with Christianity. IOW.

Just because they may not deeper your relationship does not mean they are incompatible.
You cannot seem to grasp that simple fact.

So you are also against kick-boxing? How about wrestling? Football? Archery? Are they also incompatible with Christianity because they do not deepen YOUR relationship with God?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Catechism classes are not going to involve a deepening of relationship with the Holy Spirit because it is a course of learning. A class. So to compare Yoga with a study-course is not exactly overwhelming support for Yoga. And if these don’t deepen one’s relationship with the Holy Spirit then the Pope is not going to advocate wasting our time, is he?! No. And if seeking spiritual answers from a catechism course then we are wasting our time. As is doing Yoga and Zen for spiritual growth.

So we are wasting our time in catechism class? You miss the point again. The only thing he is saying about catechism and yoga is that without the love of the Holy Spirit we will not find freedom. But with the love of the Holy Spirit, well, all thing are possible with faith.

Second argument: the word “can”. He said you “can” do all these things. Now if we take this translation accurately, we can deduce that he is not going to tell Christians that they “can” do Zen, and he is not putting Zen and Yoga, or catechism classes on a par, because they are all uniquely diffferent to each other as learning processes go.

You deduce wrongly. He speaks of them together because in this context they share the inadequacy of the love of the Holy Spirit in themselves. That is all

So he is obviously saying, in fuller explanation: “You CAN do all things, for good or bad, or neutral, people can do all sorts of things, but…” - by saying we “can” does not permit us to seek using those ways, it merely says that we can do lots of things,as we do, and from the many things we do, some won’t lead us to the Holy Spirit.

Yes but that is not an advisement NOT to do those things. It is just s statement about their spiritual emptiness without the Holy Spirit.

So if we can’t seek spiritual answers from Yoga then it is pointless. Is he then advocating wasting our time if seeking spiritual answers is useless? Again, no.

It is not pointless if we seek and find physical and psychological benefits. It is then not a waste of time.

He is saying that your love for the Holy Spirit WITHOUT Yoga, without Zen, and WITHOUT, yes, the catechism, is enough.

Yes.

These other things do not deepen one’s relationship with the Holy Spirit. It is your faith and love without these external practices that deepen the relationship.

ok

Prayers not practices. Before you say it: the Rosary is a prayer and takes no action but stillness. One could pray the Rosary without beads even.
The emphasis is on the prayer not the action.

Yes, for spiritual benefit. But we can bring prayer into all that we do including catechism and yoga and walking and breathing and running, etc.:hammering:

 

[Contarini]

Same again.

Please go back and read the dialogue concerning his words.

If you can’t understand his words then admit it but please refrain from the usual attempts at circumventing the reasoned explanation.

Sorry, but that’s a completely unacceptable way of carrying on a discussion.

When people give you reasons for disagreeing with your post, you have to try again.

It’s condescending and unproductive to tell people to go back and read your earlier posts.

We already read them. They made no sense. That is not our problem to fix. It’s yours.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

You are right.

With your reasoning you are right: Pope Francis said this for…

…absolutely no reason. Of course! I should have known all along. He said it to mean nothing and for no reason! How could I have missed this?! :whacky:

No, the point we are making is that he lists a number of practices which will not, apart from the Holy Spirit, bring us closer to God.

You say that because he compares yoga to a class that’s not a “ringing endorsement.” But this makes no sense. The point stands: he clearly isn’t telling people not to take catechism classes. Therefore, his words in no way imply that people shouldn’t do yoga.

If anything, we could make a case he is endorsing yoga as being on a parallel with catechism or classes in spirituality: a good thing to do which may be used by God but will not in itself bring us to God.

But I don’t actually think this is the case. I don’t think he was either endorsing or warning against yoga. I think his point was that people seek all kinds of knowledge and engage in all kinds of practices (some of which, like catechism, are obviously good things to do, but we can’t assume that he thinks they all are) in the belief that by doing or knowing something they will come close to God, when in fact they need to be relying on the Holy Spirit.

So your sarcasm misses the mark, as pretty much all your posts have done. No one is suggesting that he “didn’t mean anything.”

Edwin

 

[Michael_Mayo]

If anything, we could make a case he is endorsing yoga as being on a parallel with catechism or classes in spirituality: a good thing to do which may be used by God but will not in itself bring us to God.

Edwin

The Pope may not be endorsing it here but in the often cited document *LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON SOME ASPECTS OF CHRISTIAN MEDITATION *there is a section that I do believe endorses “Psychological-Corporal Methods” sicne that is the titel of the section stating:

1. Some physical exercises automatically produce a feeling of quiet and relaxation, pleasing sensations, perhaps even phenomena of light and of warmth, which resemble spiritual well-being. To take such feelings for the authentic consolations of the Holy Spirit would be a totally erroneous way of conceiving the spiritual life. Giving them a symbolic significance typical of the mystical experience, when the moral condition of the person concerned does not correspond to such an experience, would represent a kind of mental schizophrenia which could also lead to psychic disturbance and, at times, to moral deviations.

That does not mean that genuine practices of meditation which come from the Christian East and from the great non-Christian religions, which prove attractive to the man of today who is divided and disoriented, cannot constitute a suitable means of helping the person who prays to come before God with an interior peace, even in the midst of external pressures.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Just for the reflection I thought I would answer all the discernment questions of the new Age document in terms of yoga.

*** Is God a being with whom we have a relationship or something to be used or a force to be harnessed?**
God is a being with whom we have a relationship. Yoga Stretches can help us offer our bodies to God, help us to relax in God and help us to enjoy the gift of our bodies. It honors our incarnation.

*** Is there just one Jesus Christ, or are there thousands of Christs?**
There is only one Christ whether ones does yoga stretches or not.

*** The human being: is there one universal being or are there many individuals? **
We are each unique individuals embodied in great gifts. This has nothing to do with stretching other than utilizing the gift God has given us.

*** Do we save ourselves or is salvation a free gift from God?**
Salvation is a free gift from God and has nothing to do with stretches.

*** Do we invent truth or do we embrace it?**
We embrace the truth starting with the Gospel and actual Church teaching.

*** Prayer and meditation: are we talking to ourselves or to God?**
We open our hearts and minds to God. Stretches and postures, including prostrations and kneeling can help us do that.

*** Are we tempted to deny sin or do we accept that there is such a thing?**
A denial or acceptance of sin does not come into consideration with yoga.

*** Are we encouraged to reject or accept suffering and death?**
We are encourage to be fully aware of our incarnation and the state of our bodies.

*** Is social commitment something shirked or positively sought after?**
Social commitment is not addressed.

*** Is our future in the stars or do we help to construct it?** The future is not a subject on yoga.