You can't be both a Catholic and a Feminist

[mosher]

Michael Welter:

Yes, he expressed his opinion that war was wrong, but he never that official Church teaching, and never obliged all Catholics to agree with him on that issue.

BTW, it was not a preemptive war. The US was attacked, and responded. But that’s a whole other thread.

Mike is actually right here kev.

Also, on the issue being discussed I think that people are talking past eachother and not to eachother.

The first problem is “what is a feminist” as far as a definition that can be used for this discussion. Is being a feminist something that is intrinsic to the person like being catholic or is it something that is more tenuous than that. The second problem may be fleshed out when this first issue is addressed.

 

[Michael_Welter]

mosher:

The first problem is “what is a feminist” as far as a definition that can be used for this discussion. Is being a feminist something that is intrinsic to the person like being catholic or is it something that is more tenuous than that. The second problem may be fleshed out when this first issue is addressed.

As I stated earlier in this thread, the dictionary defines Feminism as the belief in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes. Simple as that! It has nothing to do with being anti-man. And it is not out of sync with Church teaching. There may be some who add to it for their own agenda, but that doesn’t change the basic definition.

 

[HelpingHands]

I’m kind of surprised to read someone say that one cannot be Catholic and also define themselves as a Feminist. FYI, being Catholic is something we are by virtue of our baptism, not by any political type ideology. So, a layperson can’t just come out and say that ‘you’re not a Catholic’. In fact, some people might say that it’s rather provocative to say so. The Church has never stated anything of the sort. In fact, I believe the Church has supported many aspects of the Feminist movement in advancing the dignity and rights of women.

I personally have never identified with the Feminist movement because of some of the negatives that I think the OP is thinking about. The things that bothered me the most were the the devalueing of the vocation of fulltime motherhood and homemaking, and the pro-choice movement. But, those things aside, I also can readily see that the Feminist movement has also done a lot for women.

If you look back to the early part of the 1900’s you’ll see that women lacked many rights that we take for granted today, including the right to vote. Women also lacked economic rights and access to good jobs. Remember, not every woman has the luxery of having a loving husband who earns a comfortable living. When I was a girl in the 1960’s one did not see women on TV as newscasters, women were generally not in positions authority in the workplace, etc. It was considered perfectly okay to pay women less for the same work, purely based on their gender.

Another thing I like about the Feminist movement is that I don’t have to wear a dress all the time. I was always a tomboy who hated dresses.

 

[Fitz]

I agree that you can’t be a radical feminist and a Catholic. However, if a Catholic follows their faith, they will be advocats for all women and all men and all children.

Is it a sin to be a feminist? No, I don’t think so if you don’t advocate for the radical elements like abortion or gay marriage. I fear it is a sin to be a radical feminist or a radical liberal.

 

[kev7]

siamesecat:

You said what I was going too but couldnt figure out how to phrase it. The Catholic Church does not do work for equality of women, even if its a teaching. So by using the teachings of the church, these Catholic women are going to non-Catholic organizations that do work for these things. I dont see your problem. Everyone has their cause. Can I not work for a charity that isn’t Catholic because “Im a humanitarian” and not a Catholic?

How do you know that the church does not work for the equality of women? How do you define gender equality? Do you define it as the catholic church does? Are you saying that there are not women who work AS catholic for the equality that the church teaches?

Why would you call yourslef a humanitarian if you are not a catholic?

 

[La_Chiara]

kev7:

Why must I be a woman? Sounds like a feminist argument. If I was a woman would you listen? Would that make any difference?

I guess you would listen to jesus more if he wasn’t a man.,

You are right I am not the pope. But I have a right to defend my faith as a catholic from moral relativism. Feminism is a part of moral relativism.

As a woman maybe you can help me understand why you need to call yourself a feminist? Why can’t you support the church as a woman?. The church is in need of women like you to support it. You need to walk with Jesus.

I am not saying you need to be a woman. But for a man to argue that Catholic women should not consider themselves to be feminist is more offensive coming from a man. Feminism, as I view it, is not moral relativism. As a conservative Catholic woman, I do not believe that I have to cede the term “feminist” to the most radical feminists and avoid use of the term. By conservative woman declaring ourselves to be pro-life feminists, we force the feminists to include us or to be accused of being extremists who exclude women who differ on some of their issues. I do not believe that being a feminist about issues of education and employment mean that I also embrace abortion, lesbianism, and other radical sexual politics.

 

[HelpingHands]

La Chiara:

I am not saying you need to be a woman. But for a man to argue that Catholic women should not consider themselves to be feminist is more offensive coming from a man. Feminism, as I view it, is not moral relativism. As a conservative Catholic woman, I do not believe that I have to cede the term “feminist” to the most radical feminists and avoid use of the term. By conservative woman declaring ourselves to be pro-life feminists, we force the feminists to include us or to be accused of being extremists who exclude women who differ on some of their issues. I do not believe that being a feminist about issues of education and employment mean that I also embrace abortion, lesbianism, and other radical sexual politics.

Right on sister! I totally agree.

 

[kev7]

Michael Welter:

As I stated earlier in this thread, the dictionary defines Feminism as the belief in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes. Simple as that! It has nothing to do with being anti-man. And it is not out of sync with Church teaching. There may be some who add to it for their own agenda, but that doesn’t change the basic definition.

Feminism can’t be defined. You can try to define it but you won’t have any luck.

Are you saying that the catholic church does not support the belief in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes? Do you disagree with the churches teachings regarding the roles of men and women?

My point is that you should not give a group like that the Credit that the Lords people deserve. When you work for a multi-facet organization you run the risk of distorting the Gospel if you don’t act in the name of Christ.

 

[mosher]

La Chiara:

I am not saying you need to be a woman. But for a man to argue that Catholic women should not consider themselves to be feminist is more offensive coming from a man. Feminism, as I view it, is not moral relativism. As a conservative Catholic woman, I do not believe that I have to cede the term “feminist” to the most radical feminists and avoid use of the term. By conservative woman declaring ourselves to be pro-life feminists, we force the feminists to include us or to be accused of being extremists who exclude women who differ on some of their issues. I do not believe that being a feminist about issues of education and employment mean that I also embrace abortion, lesbianism, and other radical sexual politics.

And now I will take the side of kev on one point:

Whether a person has their sensabilities offended by someone is irrelivent. As Neil Boortz is fond of saying “You do not have a fundamental right to not be offended”

 

[mosher]

kev7:

Feminism can’t be defined. You can try to define it but you won’t have any luck.

Are you saying that the catholic church does not support the belief in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes? Do you disagree with the churches teachings regarding the roles of men and women?

My point is that you should not give a group like that the Credit that the Lords people deserve. When you work for a multi-facet organization you run the risk of distorting the Gospel if you don’t act in the name of Christ.

kev:

That is irrational - everything can be defined except God. I suggest we try to come up with a real definition so that we can use the same language here.

 

[HelpingHands]

The thing about politics that one needs to remember is that a good politician needs to learn to work together with groups on issues that are important, even if he/she doesn’t agree with other aspects of the ideology of said group. A perfect example would be the Holy Father working with Muslims against abortion.

Unfortunately, organizations like NOW have been taken over by lesbians and man-haters. So, why not make a feminist organization to work for the postive goals of feminism? And, in the political arena they might need to work with NOW as allies against things that they both are opposed to, such as pornography (I’m not sure NOWs stance on that actually, that’s just an example)

 

[kev7]

La Chiara:

I am not saying you need to be a woman. But for a man to argue that Catholic women should not consider themselves to be feminist is more offensive coming from a man.

Wow… I am defending my faith as a man and I have a right to do that. If I see that some of the women in my faith are ignoring my arguments because I am a man. Then all I can do is pray for them. You should know that I have deep respect for women and I agree with everyone the church does. Why can’t you have respect for me as a man. Why can’t you consider my point of view? Has feminsim tainted you so much that you always view everything a man says as evil?

I am only asking you why you can’t be a catholic like mother teresa was and NOT call yourself a feminist. Why can’t you act as a catholic and defend the truth of christ as a catholic. Why do you have to support a pluristic organization like feminism?

Feminism, as I view it, is not moral relativism.

This is the very definition of relativism is it not?. “As I view it” 'What is relative to me?"

Thank you for proving to me that feminism is a form of moral relativism.

I do not believe that being a feminist about issues of education and employment mean that I also embrace abortion, lesbianism, and other radical sexual politics.

ok but how do I know that? How do I know what you stand for? Feminism is a relative thing for many women. They pick a chose what they want from it. Why would you want to call yourself such a thing? Why not just call yourself a Good catholic woman.

I’m sure you are a very loving woman and you are a good catholic. I want to make it clear to you that I am not against you. It just really makes me sad that the women of my faith are hiding being feminism and not supporting the church as women. Why can’t women support the needs of women as catholics?

 

[HelpingHands]

Hi Kev,
You make some good points. But a lot of people are involved in secular causes with non-Catholics, united for common goals. For instance, this ‘Feminists for Life’ group might consist of prominant women of many different backgrounds, who are influential in their communities and want to band together to advance their cause. There might be Protestants and Jews involved as well. They might be women who are influential, and who work outside of the home, have clout in the community, and are respected in their careers. They give a voice in the larger community to women such as this.

 

[kev7]

mosher:

kev:

That is irrational - everything can be defined except God. I suggest we try to come up with a real definition so that we can use the same language here.

ok lets try to do that then. and let me try to prove me point.

Feminism is like a big bucket full of fruit. You reach in and you take what you want from it. Unfortunately, some of the fruit in it can kill you.

The Catholic bucket has only the fruit of life in it. The fruit that Jesus put there for us to eat.

Ok now you have a choice.

Which bucket do you eat from?

That is basically my point.

A feminist catholic says, “I eat from both buckets”

A catholic like me says, “I only eat from the catholic bucket”

You do not take from the Catholic bucket and claim that it came from the feminist bucket. More people will then eat from the feminist bucket. You will lead people in the wrong direction.

 

[mosher]

kev7:

ok lets try to do that then. and let me try to prove me point.

Feminism is like a big bucket full of fruit. You reach in and you take what you want from it. Unfortunately, some of the fruit in it can kill you.

The Catholic bucket has only the fruit of life in it. The fruit that Jesus put there for us to eat.

Ok now you have a choice.

Which bucket do you eat from?

That is basically my point.

A feminist catholic says, “I eat from both buckets”

A catholic like me says, “I only eat from the catholic bucket”

You do not take from the Catholic bucket and claim that it came from the feminist bucket. More people will then eat from the feminist bucket. You will lead people in the wrong direction.

However, the converse can be true in the sense that a feminist group (properly defined) can indeed come from the fruit in the Catholic basket.

 

[HelpingHands]

Dear Kev,
Or, you can start an organization such as ‘Feminists for Life’ with other people who reject the negative fruit of the Feminist movement!

 

[kev7]

HelpingHands:

Dear Kev,
Or, you can start an organization such as ‘Feminists for Life’ with other people who reject the negative fruit of the Feminist movement!

ERR!!! I’m pulling my hair out! no… I only need to be a catholic.

Why don’t you just eat from the catholic bucket? the one that Jesus gave us? Maybe if you did more people wouldn’t make a mistake and eat from the feminist bucket

 

[kev7]

mosher:

However, the converse can be true in the sense that a feminist group (properly defined) can indeed come from the fruit in the Catholic basket.

A catholic bucket by any other name isn’t as sweet.

With our example of three buckets, smeone could get still get confused and think that the other feminist bucket is the same thing and then eat from it.

Anyway, why not just lead people to the catholic bucket?

 

[HelpingHands]

kev7:

ERR!!! I’m pulling my hair out! no… I only need to be a catholic.

Why don’t you just eat from the catholic bucket? Maybe if you did more people wouldn’t make a mistake and eat from the feminist bucket

Well, there might be a lot of reasons. The same reason, maybe, that men join the Rotary Club. To work together with other folks in the community for good causes. To join together with non-Catholics for the common good.

 

[HelpingHands]

As far as ‘The Catholic Bucket’ kev, as an example, in my community, which is a small one, the Catholic Church is not extremely functional. We have Mass, and that’s about it. People don’t seem to get along very well and it’s sort of smart to steer clear, unfortunately. The YLI consists mostly of older women outside of the paid workforce and the meetings aren’t at convenient times for working women with kids. There isn’t even a CCD program here because there’s a lot of division in the Church Community.